Why do Dispensationalists teach Separation Theology?
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Regarding the promises to Israel that are being referenced in this conversation,. if you have questions for me, I would like for you to reference the Scriptures pertaining to them.
If you don't reference them, I won't address them.
I will analyze them this way:
1. Were these promises unconditional or conditional?
2. If they were conditional, did Israel fulfill the demands?
3. If they were uncondtional, have they been fulfilled in Christ and/or the Church, or will they be fulfilled in Christ?
4. Were they fulfilled at some point in Israel's past?
I don't want any vague description of the promises by some dispensationalist pastor that you're parroting. I want the Scriptures to support the claim.
If you don't reference them, I won't address them.
I will analyze them this way:
1. Were these promises unconditional or conditional?
2. If they were conditional, did Israel fulfill the demands?
3. If they were uncondtional, have they been fulfilled in Christ and/or the Church, or will they be fulfilled in Christ?
4. Were they fulfilled at some point in Israel's past?
I don't want any vague description of the promises by some dispensationalist pastor that you're parroting. I want the Scriptures to support the claim.
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There would have to be a number of questions asked..but anyways I don't like that word. John MacArthur is Reformed or monergistic and he believes in dispensationalism. I count it that he's right with regards to other things besides that. He may be a little confident on some issues I prefer to stay silent about, though.
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By the way, I am not into normal covenant theology...I imagine someone will ask that.
I adhere to 1689 Federalism. That means I believe the Mosaic Covenant was typological, and never promised eternal life. It was typological of the New Covenant, and only promised long life in the land. As a result, the nation of Israel was exiled from the land.
This is typological of how Adam and Eve were exiled from the Garden of Eden, and how the lost will be exiled from the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21-22).
I adhere to 1689 Federalism. That means I believe the Mosaic Covenant was typological, and never promised eternal life. It was typological of the New Covenant, and only promised long life in the land. As a result, the nation of Israel was exiled from the land.
This is typological of how Adam and Eve were exiled from the Garden of Eden, and how the lost will be exiled from the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21-22).
E
Yeah
Thats called twisting the word of god
God lays out in Genesis the land which specifically was given to abraham and his descendants through issac. And he said he gave them that oand frever
That promise remains in effect today
I gave you the specifics promise, if you can not see it, we can not help you
The only promise gentiles were given was through abrahams seed (christ) all the nations of the world will be blessed.
Thats called twisting the word of god
God lays out in Genesis the land which specifically was given to abraham and his descendants through issac. And he said he gave them that oand frever
That promise remains in effect today
I gave you the specifics promise, if you can not see it, we can not help you
The only promise gentiles were given was through abrahams seed (christ) all the nations of the world will be blessed.
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What are the specific Scriptures?
By the way, I quoted Romans 4 to you, where it says Abraham and his descendants are the heirs of the whole WORLD, not just Palestine.
And, since the believer, Jew or Gentile, is joined with Jesus and shares his inheritance, this means all saved individuals share in this inheritance.
Therefore, the promises made to Israel are even grander and more inclusive than initially expressed to Abraham.
The blessings that Gentiles receive are not only spiritual blessings in Christ. They include inheritance of all things.
By the way, I quoted Romans 4 to you, where it says Abraham and his descendants are the heirs of the whole WORLD, not just Palestine.
And, since the believer, Jew or Gentile, is joined with Jesus and shares his inheritance, this means all saved individuals share in this inheritance.
Therefore, the promises made to Israel are even grander and more inclusive than initially expressed to Abraham.
The blessings that Gentiles receive are not only spiritual blessings in Christ. They include inheritance of all things.
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L
End time prophecy is a bit out of my depth, but let me propose a notion. What if God only uses those words of separation for our understanding? What if there never was any jew vs gentile, what if we were always the same, only God choose to Shepard a few while so that his plan for redemption could be worked in the whole world? And what if the promise to Abraham was not only the land of Canaan, but also the whole world? What if it always was God's plan to redeem all who would believe?
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All Theological Camps Do The Same Thing... in a sense:
If we should try, for a moment, to be entirely honest, we'll arrive at the conclusion that all of the theological camps DO this same thing which is stated above.
All camps will say some things are literal, and some things are metaphor, and this will be all be relegated in a way that supports their view. All camps do this.
The only question is, which theological camp is actually correct... that is the real debate.
The Necessary Problem of Metaphor:
All language contains metaphor.
Metaphor is a common part, and a very large part, of all language.
So by sheer necessity, when deciphering language, we must always grapple with the issue of which things are metaphor and which things are not.
The different camps, because of differing views, WILL NATURALLY ascribe literalism and metaphor to different passages.
Since everyone does this, and it's a necessary endeavor that all camps have to engage in... we should probably not use this as an accusation. Any camp can easily use this to accuse any other camp.
So we cannot simply say, "you differentiate literal and figurative in a way that supports your view, therefore you are wrong."
We cannot use this as an argument, because all camps do this.
Or to be more accurate: we CAN say this, but it doesn't constitute any kind of proof.
It simply isn't a proof.
What we have to do, is the painstaking work of addressing EACH INSTANCE, and then comparing it with the entire context, and then comparing it with various other passage all throughout scripture, and then going off on all of the different theological rabbit trails that support various views on all of these various places in scripture. That is how you have to argue these issues.
There are many in-house debates within christianity, which, although important, are simply argued to death.
I usually stay out of this one, not because it's unimportant, but because no one is really listening, lol.
I really just popped in to address this one little issue about metaphorical vs literal interpretation.
Conclusion:
1. It's healthy to POLITELY discuss and debate these kinds of doctrinal issues... regardless of how controversial they are.
2. However, accusing one camp of being wrong BECAUSE they "interpret some things as literal and some things as metaphor" is really not a good way to argue this topic, as ALL CAMPS do the same thing.
3. I am NOT suggesting any insincerity here; I'm not saying any camp is lying or has bad intentions.
4. But language always contains such a large degree of metaphor, that we MUST, by necessity, always address this issue of what is metaphor and what is not... and people with different views will naturally come to different conclusions.
People will view the metaphors differently; they will have differences.
5. To have a difference is not a proof of wrongness:
We have differences with people all the time, and we know that the mere existence of differences has no ability, in itself, to prove which person is right.
The existence of a difference, in itself, doesn't prove anything.
Therefore, the existence of difference about metaphor... doesn't, in itself, prove anything.
We must give evidence for our views... whatever camp we're in.
6. Finally: I'm not saying anyone has bad intentions, and I'm not saying all views are equal or true, I'm simply saying this: Not every type of argument is a valid argument, so let's debate well, and make good arguments.
Have fun everyone.
I'll try to stay out of here, lol.
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This is just a wild and baseless accusation. I am a Premillennial Dispensationalist, but I focus on the false teachings of alternative views, not on the individuals posting them. There is no profit in ad hominem attacks.
In any event Replacement Theology is indeed totally bogus. A proper understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant will lead to the conclusion that both the Church and Israel are separately included in that covenant.
Let's take one glaring example. Is this promise even remotely applicable to the Church, whose eternal home is the New Jerusalem?
GENESIS 15
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
So let's ask ourselves a few questions:
1. Who is this seed to whom the Land of Promise is given? Is it not the twelve tribes of Israel as detailed in Ezekiel 48? And is not the prophecy of Ezekiel revealing to us redeemed and restored Israel under Christ?
2. What are the boundaries of greater Israel in the future? "from the river of Egypt [the Nile] unto the great river, the river Euphrates". That is probably 10 times the land mass of Israel as it is at present. So only God can make this happen.
3. Where were these ten nations located? Were they not located in the land of Canaan (now known as Palestine), and were they not to be removed by Israel so that Israel would occupy this land of milk and honey?
The Abrahamic Covenant given in Genesis 15 was reiterated to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the Land of Promise was always included in those iterations. But Replacement Theology seeks to nullify this promise, whereas Dispensationalism faithfully presents this as the future of redeemed and restored Israel. CASE CLOSED.
In any event Replacement Theology is indeed totally bogus. A proper understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant will lead to the conclusion that both the Church and Israel are separately included in that covenant.
Let's take one glaring example. Is this promise even remotely applicable to the Church, whose eternal home is the New Jerusalem?
GENESIS 15
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
So let's ask ourselves a few questions:
1. Who is this seed to whom the Land of Promise is given? Is it not the twelve tribes of Israel as detailed in Ezekiel 48? And is not the prophecy of Ezekiel revealing to us redeemed and restored Israel under Christ?
2. What are the boundaries of greater Israel in the future? "from the river of Egypt [the Nile] unto the great river, the river Euphrates". That is probably 10 times the land mass of Israel as it is at present. So only God can make this happen.
3. Where were these ten nations located? Were they not located in the land of Canaan (now known as Palestine), and were they not to be removed by Israel so that Israel would occupy this land of milk and honey?
The Abrahamic Covenant given in Genesis 15 was reiterated to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the Land of Promise was always included in those iterations. But Replacement Theology seeks to nullify this promise, whereas Dispensationalism faithfully presents this as the future of redeemed and restored Israel. CASE CLOSED.
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Calvinist teachings, especially the 'union with Christ' which was Calvin's speciality
people usually talk about our 'positional standing with Christ' which is actually what they are trying to get at with the union with Christ, however they are not the same in understanding
several have asked, including myself, if the op is Calvinist and he says this
you may not like a word, but if you sound like a Calvinist, write like a Calvinist and argue like a Calvinist, chances are you are a Calvinist
people usually talk about our 'positional standing with Christ' which is actually what they are trying to get at with the union with Christ, however they are not the same in understanding
several have asked, including myself, if the op is Calvinist and he says this
you may not like a word, but if you sound like a Calvinist, write like a Calvinist and argue like a Calvinist, chances are you are a Calvinist
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E
Which one do you want?
Gen 12:
12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Gen 15: -
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
Gen 17: Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of [b]many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called [c]Abram, but your name shall be [d]Abraham; for I have made you a father of [e]many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in[f] which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
gen 26:
There was a famine in the land, besides the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went to Abimelech king of the Philistines, in Gerar.
2 Then the Lord appeared to him and said: “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. 4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;
Gen 28:
Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
13 And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: “I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants. 14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed. 15 Behold, I am with you and will keep[c] you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you.”
Romans 4 does not counter these verses. Forever means forever!
Gen 12:
12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Gen 15: -
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
Gen 17: Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of [b]many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called [c]Abram, but your name shall be [d]Abraham; for I have made you a father of [e]many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in[f] which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
gen 26:
There was a famine in the land, besides the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went to Abimelech king of the Philistines, in Gerar.
2 Then the Lord appeared to him and said: “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. 4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;
Gen 28:
Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
13 And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: “I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants. 14 Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed. 15 Behold, I am with you and will keep[c] you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you.”
Romans 4 does not counter these verses. Forever means forever!
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simple
kick the Jews out of Palestine
God is through with them anyway
but when you see it in print like that, it sounds really pro-Arab for some reason
so you are going to ignore God giving the land to Abraham?
A common misperception is that the Jews were forced into the diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 A.D. and then, 1,800 years later, suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years. A national language and a distinct civilization have been maintained.
The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham; 2) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 3) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and 4) the territory was captured in defensive wars.
The term "Palestine" is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what is now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century A.D., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestinato Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from this Latin name.
The Twelve Tribes of Israel formed the first constitutional monarchy in Palestine about 1000 B.C. The second king, David, first made Jerusalem the nation's capital. Although eventually Palestine was split into two separate kingdoms, Jewish independence there lasted for 212 years. This is almost as long as Americans have enjoyed independence in what has become known as the United States.
Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in Palestine continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the 11th century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea.
Many Jews were massacred by the Crusaders during the 12th century, but the community rebounded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and Jewish pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent rabbis established communities in Safed, Jerusalem and elsewhere during the next 300 years. By the early 19th century-years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement-more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel.
When Jews began to immigrate to Palestine in large numbers in 1882, fewer than 250,000 Arabs lived there, and the majority of them had arrived in recent decades. Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of most the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century. No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine. When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: "There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not." In fact, Palestine is never explicitly mentioned in the Koran, rather it is called "the holy land" (al-Arad al-Muqaddash).
Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted:
We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.
In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: "There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."
The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947 that said "Palestine was part of the Province of Syria" and that, "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity." A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."
Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel's capture of the West Bank.
rest of article
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E
Wrong.
Scripture is organic. It began with the Fall and proceeds to a culmination in the New Heavens and the New Earth.
Additionally, you are using the word "allegory" in a deceptive manner. Allegory was used by some including Origen to interpret Scripture. Recognizing shadows and types from the OT is not allegory.
By the way, John MacArthur claimed there are no allegories in Scripture. He is wrong on this. Galatians 4 uses the allegory of Hagar and Sarah.
Non-
I don't like the word Calvinist. I'm a monergist, though. I believe God is sovereign over all things. I am definitely in tune with the Reformation.
Pretty funny joke
I used to belong to a group that was similar to dispensationalists in their obsession with prophecy. One of their favorite games was "pin the tail on the Anti-Christ". I can't remember all the potential candidates, but I remember that Franz Josef Strauss was one..then he died...and Ronald Wilson Reagan (6 letters each name) was one..then he died...yada yada yada.
No more of that nonsense
Scripture is organic. It began with the Fall and proceeds to a culmination in the New Heavens and the New Earth.
Additionally, you are using the word "allegory" in a deceptive manner. Allegory was used by some including Origen to interpret Scripture. Recognizing shadows and types from the OT is not allegory.
By the way, John MacArthur claimed there are no allegories in Scripture. He is wrong on this. Galatians 4 uses the allegory of Hagar and Sarah.
Non-
I don't like the word Calvinist. I'm a monergist, though. I believe God is sovereign over all things. I am definitely in tune with the Reformation.
Pretty funny joke
I used to belong to a group that was similar to dispensationalists in their obsession with prophecy. One of their favorite games was "pin the tail on the Anti-Christ". I can't remember all the potential candidates, but I remember that Franz Josef Strauss was one..then he died...and Ronald Wilson Reagan (6 letters each name) was one..then he died...yada yada yada.
No more of that nonsense
Allegory is another type
Prophesy can never be allerory, else prophesy is rendered useless
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all the charges of easy believism, once saved always saved. i say amen
both are true.
its easy to be saved
its as easy as:
drinking a glass of water:
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
eating:
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
entering through a door:
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
looking:
John 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
both are true.
its easy to be saved
its as easy as:
drinking a glass of water:
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
eating:
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
entering through a door:
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
looking:
John 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
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