Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[fredoheaven]

You also needs to look at things from human perspective.

Yes, we need to look at things from human perspective but after one got saved after, God declared you righteous because of faith. You have to prove your faith by your works.

 

[BillG]

Not everyone who is not religious is not saved.

That makes no sense at all.

Well to at least for me.

 

[fredoheaven]

Doesn't matter. If a two year old can be saved without them figuring Jesus dying for their sin, then there must some other means than the one you are proposing here. And Jesus also said, if we don't become like them, we shall not see the kingdom.

So what is this other way? Are you trying to say if i don't know sin i'm saved? how does that relate to salvation by faith in Christ alone?

You need to understand that faith comes by the hearing and the hearing of the word of God. After you have heard the word of truth, you believed because of that, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, you were given an inheritance to the praise of his glory. Amen! Again these are they who first trusted Christ. Meaning if a child is capable of learning these truths are saved. Well if not, as I am saying that child is safe from the Lord.

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

 

[fredoheaven]

if we have a part

we are not saved by grace (Gods part) but by works. (our part)

You are making our part out to be more extensive, complicated and difficult than it really is.

isn't it a normal response for us to believe the gospel? We have to look and live.

And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and set it upon the standard: and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he looked unto the serpent of brass, he lived.—Numbers 21:8-9.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.—John 3:14-15.

 

[Lightskin]

Your proposal is fake. That children die so that they don't face the future, then why are you and adult?

I have been able to handle life because of the magnitude of my faith. To God be the glory.

 

[mailmandan]

if we have a part

we are not saved by grace (Gods part) but by works. (our part)

It's certainly not "our part" in the sense that Christ only saves us for the most part, then we have to help Him save us in part. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save. Our part or what must we do to be saved is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ/receive the gift of eternal life through faith. (Acts 16:31; Romans 3:24-28)

 

[mailmandan]

Nope.

Judgement is about what you did or did not do

Matt 25:
37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’

45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’

46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Works-salvationists typically misunderstand these passages of scripture. After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" seem to suggest that obtaining salvation is based on works. All scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of Scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation.

The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because of the imputed righteousness which is of God and received by faith (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow. So it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works that are a manifestation of/fruit of, faith by which one receives eternal life.

 

[mailmandan]

Judgement is always about what you did and never what you thought.

Rev 20:
11Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.

And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.


Rev 14:
12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

Faith is not some thoughts but the works of love.

Works determine rewards and loss of rewards for believers at the judgment seat of Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

The unrighteousness dead are judged according to their deeds and will fall short of God’s holy standard and will be found wanting. (Romans 3:23) Some will receive greater condemnation than others, which suggests degrees of punishment in hell. *Matthew 23:14 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. Also see Matthew 10:14,15; Mark 12:38-40; Luke 12:47-48.

In regards to Revelation 14:12-13, this supports perseverance of the saints, who are described as those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. The works of the saints who die in the Lord follow as the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it. Faith is faith and works of love are works of love. You infuse it all together and the end result is salvation by works.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You forgot, that this passage refers to the righteous and in no way denying it, but as Christ said not all who says, Lord, Lord will is saved. Even the religious Nicodemus is lost and that's the point in the previous post.

Just curious, what makes you determine that Nicodemus is lost eternally?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Works-salvationists typically misunderstand these passages of scripture. After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" seem to suggest that obtaining salvation is based on works. All scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of Scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation.

The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because of the imputed righteousness which is of God and received by faith (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow. So it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works that are a manifestation of/fruit of, faith by which one receives eternal life.

Are you saying that our faith is what causes us to have eternal life?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

isn't it a normal response for us to believe the gospel? We have to look and live.

And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and set it upon the standard: and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he looked unto the serpent of brass, he lived.—Numbers 21:8-9.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.—John 3:14-15.

The word "believeth" is in present tense, not in future tense. Those who already believe, not those that will believe.

 

[mailmandan]

Are you saying that our faith is what causes us to have eternal life?

Faith in Christ is the instrumental means by which we receive eternal life.

 

[Noose]

Works determine rewards and loss of rewards for believers at the judgment seat of Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

The unrighteousness dead are judged according to their deeds and will fall short of God’s holy standard and will be found wanting. (Romans 3:23) Some will receive greater condemnation than others, which suggests degrees of punishment in hell. *Matthew 23:14 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. Also see Matthew 10:14,15; Mark 12:38-40; Luke 12:47-48.

In regards to Revelation 14:12-13, this supports perseverance of the saints, who are described as those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. The works of the saints who die in the Lord follow as the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it. Faith is faith and works of love are works of love. You infuse it all together and the end result is salvation by works.

What rewards can a spirit get? A spirit is an understanding, what rewards can an understanding get?

 

[Noose]

Works-salvationists typically misunderstand these passages of scripture. After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" seem to suggest that obtaining salvation is based on works. All scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of Scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation.

The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are the fruit that will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because of the imputed righteousness which is of God and received by faith (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow. So it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works that are a manifestation of/fruit of, faith by which one receives eternal life.

Judgement is based on keeping the commandments of God and never about their thoughts, this is the totality of scripture. Not a single scripture demonstrates judgement based on what people thought but what they did.

The works of love are not a fruit of anything but obedience to God's command. Other aspects of love like patience/perseverance are fruits but obedience is everyone's choice. God does not cause anyone to obey or disobey and then judge them as being righteous or unrighteous.

 

[Noose]

I have been able to handle life because of the magnitude of my faith. To God be the glory.

Again, children do not die because they can not handle the future and they don't have faith in anything.
Nothing in the scripture suggests anything close to it.
Some drug addicts even live longer and they are able to handle life too.

 

[RickStudies]

Just curious, what makes you determine that Nicodemus is lost eternally?

Not likely that Nicodemous is lost.

 

[Noose]

You need to understand that faith comes by the hearing and the hearing of the word of God. After you have heard the word of truth, you believed because of that, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, you were given an inheritance to the praise of his glory. Amen! Again these are they who first trusted Christ. Meaning if a child is capable of learning these truths are saved. Well if not, as I am saying that child is safe from the Lord.

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

I still don't see how a two year old gets saved. They don't get to hear these so called 'truths' and get sealed, how do they get saved?

 

[Noose]

That makes no sense at all.

Well to at least for me.

It will, give it time.

 

[Noose]

Yes, we need to look at things from human perspective but after one got saved after, God declared you righteous because of faith. You have to prove your faith by your works.

Nope. You don't have to prove anything. If you love others, it should come from compassion/empathy and not your zeal to prove anything- this is no longer love but pride.

 

[Noose]

You forgot, that this passage refers to the righteous and in no way denying it, but as Christ said not all who says, Lord, Lord will is saved. Even the religious Nicodemus is lost and that's the point in the previous post.

According to that passage and every other judgement passage, they are righteous because of what they did and not what they thought.