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yeah I don't know
I was looking at that too
however he only fled with 2 daughters it seems...unless the 2 were engaged which might be considered married back then...to the 2 'husbands'
I'm not sure on this one
at any rate, God did not spare the city so there were not 10 righteous
but the # in the family has me guessing
I was looking at that too
however he only fled with 2 daughters it seems...unless the 2 were engaged which might be considered married back then...to the 2 'husbands'
I'm not sure on this one
at any rate, God did not spare the city so there were not 10 righteous
but the # in the family has me guessing
And yes, 10 righteous weren't found. Perhaps this is why Lot didn't bother going to his sons, and the record also shows that his married daughters and their husbands were in unbelief.
Possibly 4 righteous, then - the four whose hands the angels grabbed and miraculously removed from the city, sparing from the wrath of God against the place.
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The entire narrative seems to suggest that Lot had only TWO DAUGHTERS, not four (and no sons).
Both were married, yet strangely enough, Lot said that they had not *known* any man (meaning had had no sexual intercourse). Which could imply that their husbands were homosexuals and had left their wives as virgins.
...take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here... (v 15)
...and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters... (v 16)
...And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters... (v 30)
...And the firstborn said unto the younger... (v 31)
...Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father... (v 36)
Both were married, yet strangely enough, Lot said that they had not *known* any man (meaning had had no sexual intercourse). Which could imply that their husbands were homosexuals and had left their wives as virgins.
...take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here... (v 15)
...and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters... (v 16)
...And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters... (v 30)
...And the firstborn said unto the younger... (v 31)
...Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father... (v 36)
no it doesn't.
v.12 - his sons. at least 2 people.
v.14 - Lot & his sons in law who had married daughters. at least 5 people.
v.15 - two daughters which were with him, and his wife - 3 more people.
Then the men said unto Lot, Whom hast thou yet here? either son-in-law, or thy sons or thy daughters, or whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring it out of this place.
(Genesis 19:12 1560 GNV)
Then Lot went out and spake unto his sons-in-law, which married his daughters, and said, Arise, get you out of this place: for the Lord will destroy the city, but he seemed to his sons-in-law, as though he had mocked.
(Genesis 19:14 1560 GNV)
And when the morning arose, the Angels hasted Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife and thy two daughters which are here, lest thou be destroyed in the punishment of the city.
(Genesis 19:15 1560 GNV)
And the elder said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth, to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth.
(Genesis 19:31 1560 GNV)
perhaps you are using a modern, corrupted translation? v.12 - his sons. at least 2 people.
v.14 - Lot & his sons in law who had married daughters. at least 5 people.
v.15 - two daughters which were with him, and his wife - 3 more people.
yeah, like Adam, who was not deceived, face to face with his poisoned wife, making an informed choice and knowingly choosing to die with her. then upon hearing their judgement, changing her name to mother of all those with life.
and we have lots of previous 99% of sermons preaching Genesis 3 as if Adam is similarly an idiot who made his choice through sheer stupidity.
i also think Adam was extremely wise & intelligent and made an absolutely informed and thoughtful decision, which was still sin, to be sure.
and we have Christ dying for the ungodly, this time without sin, and we know the whole OT is pictures of Him we're supposed to search it for.
what i'm asking 'what if' about is what if these people thought about what they did, intelligently, and some of their actions were out of love? does that change our understanding of the text in any way? does the text support them having motivations other than crass materialism, vanity and lust? this text is often used as one of those 'sinners in the hands of an angry God' sermons to frighten people into repentance. but the facts are, the people who were actually touched by divine hands in this narrative, were miraculously snatched away from God's wrath, 'because the LORD being merciful' ((v.16))
i think there's much more to this, far more than what's commonly taught. and i know you do too; that's why you made the thread
and we have lots of previous 99% of sermons preaching Genesis 3 as if Adam is similarly an idiot who made his choice through sheer stupidity.
i also think Adam was extremely wise & intelligent and made an absolutely informed and thoughtful decision, which was still sin, to be sure.
and we have Christ dying for the ungodly, this time without sin, and we know the whole OT is pictures of Him we're supposed to search it for.
what i'm asking 'what if' about is what if these people thought about what they did, intelligently, and some of their actions were out of love? does that change our understanding of the text in any way? does the text support them having motivations other than crass materialism, vanity and lust? this text is often used as one of those 'sinners in the hands of an angry God' sermons to frighten people into repentance. but the facts are, the people who were actually touched by divine hands in this narrative, were miraculously snatched away from God's wrath, 'because the LORD being merciful' ((v.16))
i think there's much more to this, far more than what's commonly taught. and i know you do too; that's why you made the thread
when the disciples ask about what the sign of the end of the age will be, He says to remember her.
it can be understood, she is a sign to those at the end of the age. that some will 'see' her, that is, the sign of her, at that time.
what is the sign of Lot's wife?
@PennEd is it a bride being divinely snatched away just before imminent wrath of God being poured out, and being preserved?
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Then another said, I will follow thee, Lord: but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at mine house.
And Jesus said unto him, No man that putteth his hand to the plough, and looketh back, is apt to the kingdom of God.
(Luke 9:61-62 1560 GNV)
is Jesus talking about glancing over your shoulder while you work? what's the context of His statement indicate?
something about loved ones, right? familial love?
about putting those ahead of the will of God for you?
does this shed any light?
It makes you wonder why Lot lived there in the first place. I mean was he "locked in" so he couldn't leave? Was it hard to find a new dwelling place or was it Lots wife who seemed to look back who kept him there. What did she like about it? If a place vexed your soul so much, surely you would just say "right - that's it, we are out". The city had gates so presumably people came in and out. Just sayin….
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yeah, like Adam, who was not deceived, face to face with his poisoned wife, making an informed choice and knowingly choosing to die with her. then upon hearing their judgement, changing her name to mother of all those with life.
and we have lots of previous 99% of sermons preaching Genesis 3 as if Adam is similarly an idiot who made his choice through sheer stupidity.
i also think Adam was extremely wise & intelligent and made an absolutely informed and thoughtful decision, which was still sin, to be sure.
and we have Christ dying for the ungodly, this time without sin, and we know the whole OT is pictures of Him we're supposed to search it for.
what i'm asking 'what if' about is what if these people thought about what they did, intelligently, and some of their actions were out of love? does that change our understanding of the text in any way? does the text support them having motivations other than crass materialism, vanity and lust? this text is often used as one of those 'sinners in the hands of an angry God' sermons to frighten people into repentance. but the facts are, the people who were actually touched by divine hands in this narrative, were miraculously snatched away from God's wrath, 'because the LORD being merciful' ((v.16))
i think there's much more to this, far more than what's commonly taught. and i know you do too; that's why you made the thread
and we have lots of previous 99% of sermons preaching Genesis 3 as if Adam is similarly an idiot who made his choice through sheer stupidity.
i also think Adam was extremely wise & intelligent and made an absolutely informed and thoughtful decision, which was still sin, to be sure.
and we have Christ dying for the ungodly, this time without sin, and we know the whole OT is pictures of Him we're supposed to search it for.
what i'm asking 'what if' about is what if these people thought about what they did, intelligently, and some of their actions were out of love? does that change our understanding of the text in any way? does the text support them having motivations other than crass materialism, vanity and lust? this text is often used as one of those 'sinners in the hands of an angry God' sermons to frighten people into repentance. but the facts are, the people who were actually touched by divine hands in this narrative, were miraculously snatched away from God's wrath, 'because the LORD being merciful' ((v.16))
i think there's much more to this, far more than what's commonly taught. and i know you do too; that's why you made the thread
He went there first because he desired to live there
He was taken prisoner, and even then, STILL wanted to return
When he was told to leave, He STILL did not want to leave, His heart was in the city.
we shoudl not ASSUME anythign else other than what the scripture makes clear.
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Lot's wife is definitely a tough nut to crack. Very interesting proposal you put forth about her, and by extension supposed Christians like her.
I will have to pray and think on that.
Fascinating that even though she was in the proximity of her husband and daughters they weren't turned to salt by the blast. She yearned to go back to that world I think. Obviously the Lord saved the others, but on a practical level something (the angels?) blocked the effect of the blast, and when she turned to look back, she lost that protection.
The million dollar question is whether she just forfeited her physical body, or if she also lost her soul.
Same type of questions surround Ananias and Sapphira.
I will have to pray and think on that.
Fascinating that even though she was in the proximity of her husband and daughters they weren't turned to salt by the blast. She yearned to go back to that world I think. Obviously the Lord saved the others, but on a practical level something (the angels?) blocked the effect of the blast, and when she turned to look back, she lost that protection.
The million dollar question is whether she just forfeited her physical body, or if she also lost her soul.
Same type of questions surround Ananias and Sapphira.
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Was Sodom as bad when Abraham and his army rescued their king and the whole city? Was it already extremely evil when Lot first chose to dwell there because if the good land it was situated on? I don't know.
I am not sure Lots heart was after the city or after his own family members that were there. It makes a lot more sense to me that part of his hesitating was over having sins and daughters and sons in law who he would be leaving behind. I mean, at this time he has just been surrounded by all the men of the city, young and old, intending to rape murder and mutilate him. Does he really think he has a future there?
I am not sure Lots heart was after the city or after his own family members that were there. It makes a lot more sense to me that part of his hesitating was over having sins and daughters and sons in law who he would be leaving behind. I mean, at this time he has just been surrounded by all the men of the city, young and old, intending to rape murder and mutilate him. Does he really think he has a future there?
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The king was more worried about the people he enslaved then the riches with which he had (he offered all his wealth to abraham if abraham would just let him have his people.
That seems like a prety serious situation.
Cities do not get evil overnight, It usually progresses to that point, and takes a few generations.
That seems like a prety serious situation.
Cities do not get evil overnight, It usually progresses to that point, and takes a few generations.
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Answer my own question if I'd just read the Bible lol
Genesis 13:13
Now the people of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.
Not clear if Lot knew this when he first chose the land, its certainly not why he chose to live in the area:
Genesis 13:10-11
Lot looked around and saw that the whole plain of the Jordan toward Zoar was well watered, like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt. (This was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.) So Lot chose for himself the whole plain of the Jordan and set out toward the east. The two men parted company:
Genesis 13:13
Now the people of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.
Not clear if Lot knew this when he first chose the land, its certainly not why he chose to live in the area:
Genesis 13:10-11
Lot looked around and saw that the whole plain of the Jordan toward Zoar was well watered, like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt. (This was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.) So Lot chose for himself the whole plain of the Jordan and set out toward the east. The two men parted company:
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Lot chose the cities
He let abraham have the wilderness
while your right, this ALONE does not prove anything, He does show when abraham rescued him and he had a chance to go live with abraham, or go live with the king of salem, that he CHOSE to go live wiht the king who wanted people as slaves. Why is this?
He let abraham have the wilderness
while your right, this ALONE does not prove anything, He does show when abraham rescued him and he had a chance to go live with abraham, or go live with the king of salem, that he CHOSE to go live wiht the king who wanted people as slaves. Why is this?
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[Heb lôṭ (לֹוט)]. Lot, the nephew of the patriarch Abraham, plays a role in the story of Israel’s ancestral origins (Gen 11:26–50:26). The son of Abraham’s deceased brother Haran (Gen 11:27–31), he accompanies his uncle on the epic journey to Canaan (Gen 12:4–5). Once there the two eventually separate (Gen 13:1–18). The separation notwithstanding, Abraham later rescues his nephew, who had been captured by foreign kings (Gen 14:1–16). Lot has a more independent part in the account of Sodom and Gomorrah’s destruction (Gen 19:1–29). But there is still a connection with Abraham in that Lot’s exemption from judgment was due to his relationship to his uncle (Gen 19:29). After his escape from Sodom and the death of his wife (Gen 19:17, 26), his two daughters managed to insure their and his posterity through incestuous relations (Gen 19:30–38). The offspring were the ancestors of the Moabites and Ammonites, who were often enemies of later Israel.
Three times Lot is mentioned in non-narrative texts. Twice in Deuteronomy (2:9, 19) Israel is commanded not to engage Moab or Ammon in battle since the Lord promised them territory for being Lot’s children. The other reference (Ps 83:8) lists Lot’s children (i.e., Moabites and Ammonites) among Israel’s adversaries. In the NT, Lot is viewed as a righteous inhabitant of Sodom and Gomorrah who was greatly vexed by the wickedness of the two cities (2 Pet 2:6–8). Deut 23:3–6 forbids Ammonites and Moabites entry to the assembly of the Lord. But Ruth, who was a Moabite, played a decisive role in the life of Israel (Ruth 4:13–22).
Three times Lot is mentioned in non-narrative texts. Twice in Deuteronomy (2:9, 19) Israel is commanded not to engage Moab or Ammon in battle since the Lord promised them territory for being Lot’s children. The other reference (Ps 83:8) lists Lot’s children (i.e., Moabites and Ammonites) among Israel’s adversaries. In the NT, Lot is viewed as a righteous inhabitant of Sodom and Gomorrah who was greatly vexed by the wickedness of the two cities (2 Pet 2:6–8). Deut 23:3–6 forbids Ammonites and Moabites entry to the assembly of the Lord. But Ruth, who was a Moabite, played a decisive role in the life of Israel (Ruth 4:13–22).