Not By Works

[Macabeus]

And you hath He quickened, that were dead in trespasses and sins, wherein, in times past ye walked, according to the course of this world, and after the prince that ruleth in the air, even the spirit, that now worketh in the children of disobedience, among whom we also had our conversation in time past in the lusts of our flesh, in fulfilling the will of the flesh, and of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath, as well as others.​

But God which is rich in mercy, through His great love wherewith He loved us, even when we were dead by sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, by Whose grace ye are saved, and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that He might show in the ages to come the exceeding riches of His grace through His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.​

(Ephesians 2:1-7)​

​

it seems to me, if this is about regeneration, it's calling it salvation.

Yes, it is one aspect of salvation, along with justification, adoption, preservation, and glorification.GB9 said that regeneration is not instant. I , on the other hand. believe that God regenerates us the MOMENT WE BELIEVE. Apparently GB9 Doesn't, and DC and EG don't know that tomato plants have NOTHING to do with regeneration.

 

[posthuman]

OF COURSE IF SOMEONE COMES TO CHRIST in faith THEY ARE REGENERATED then and there.

i agree.

i think it's the only way anyone comes to Him at all - drawn; quickened.

 

[Macabeus]

i agree.

i think it's the only way anyone comes to Him at all - drawn; quickened.

The fact I believe this makes me a works salvationist and a legalist according to some here. Go figure...

 

[VCO]

@dcontroversal

@UnderGrace

@Lightskin

@eternally-gratefull

Look at the post GB9 is replying to, and tell me where I taught works salvation

That is why I accused DC of believing regeneration is a work we do. Because GB said this post is teacing a works salvation, when it is in fact teaching regeneration, and DC said “exactly” to the premise that what I stated was an admission to works salvation

GB9 denies that regeneration is instant for one who believes. You guys are REALLY confused

You May Not Know This, but some Churches like the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. Teach that to tell a person that they Need to Receive JESUS as LORD, and say a sinners prayer is WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS. I used to be a member of that Church. I am so glad that I got out, and ended up in a conservative evangelical type of CHURCH.

They completely ignore this verse, that PROVES, if it is a REAL CONVERSION, it is the Work of the HOLY SPIRIT that motivates us to receive JESUS AS LORD.

1 Corinthians 12:3 (HCSB)
3 Therefore I am informing you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is cursed,” and
no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” [.As a CONFESSION.] except by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Macabeus]

You May Not Know This, but some Churches like the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. Teach that to tell a person that they Need to Receive JESUS as LORD, and say a sinners prayer is WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS. I uses to be a member of that Church. I am so glad that I got out, and ended up in a conservative evangelical type of CHURCH.

They completely ignore this verse, that PROVES if it is a REAL CONVERSION, it is the Work of the HOLY SPIRIT that motivates us to receive JESUS AS LORD.

1 Corinthians 12:3 (HCSB)
3 Therefore I am informing you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,”
[.As a CONFESSION.] except by the Holy Spirit.

Plus the fact that Kurios means Master, as in owner. If a believer doesn't know Christ owns them, they have a subbiblical view of Jesus and the Atonement. And you become a believer the instant you believe, you know, that regeneration thing. Regeneration includes heart change, unless one doesn't believe in repentance. But like you said, that would be a subbiblical view.

 

[posthuman]

Yes, it is one aspect of salvation, along with justification, adoption, preservation, and glorification.GB9 said that regeneration is not instant. I , on the other hand. believe that God regenerates us the MOMENT WE BELIEVE. Apparently GB9 Doesn't, and DC and EG don't know that tomato plants have NOTHING to do with regeneration.

maybe they just didn't understand. this thread is over 108,000 posts long. that's 108,000+ post of them shooing away people who think salvation is by works -- which, duh, it's not -- after that long they've probably got a little shell shock.

but i don't know i've missed the last 500 pages or something, lol. maybe i don't understand you, either, or anything

i'd keep trying the truth

 

[Macabeus]

maybe they just didn't understand. this thread is over 108,000 posts long. that's 108,000+ post of them shooing away people who think salvation is by works -- which, duh, it's not -- after that long they've probably got a little shell shock.

but i don't know i've missed the last 500 pages or something, lol. maybe i don't understand you, either, or anything

i'd keep trying the truth

I said that regeneration is instantaneous upon belief and GB9 took exception to it. Just go to the post below and back up for a few posts from there and you will see what I mean

instant.

 

[Macabeus]

maybe they just didn't understand. this thread is over 108,000 posts long. that's 108,000+ post of them shooing away people who think salvation is by works -- which, duh, it's not -- after that long they've probably got a little shell shock.

but i don't know i've missed the last 500 pages or something, lol. maybe i don't understand you, either, or anything

i'd keep trying the truth

@posthuman
@VCO

Here is one example of what I am talking about. Tell me what you think of this post below. I bolded the important part

regeneration is not what your phony lordship junk teaches. saved by grace, proved by works.

trash.

yes, I personally believe in regeneration, but you push INSTANT regeneration, that is a big fat lie.


it looks different for everyone. some folks are instantly regenerated , some it takes times for the Fruits of the Sprit to began to manifest.

all are saved the instant they believe, and stay so as long as they believe.

regeneration is a separate conversation.

 

[gb9]

I said that regeneration is instantaneous upon belief and GB9 took exception to it. Just go to the post below and back up for a few posts from there and you will see what I mean

no, I did not. in took exception to the fact that you say that the EVIDENCE , OUTWARD, BASED ON BEHAVIOR, IS INSTANT.

as I have given you, multiple times, is this-

2 people come to Christ. one instantly stops the sin, the big obvious sin, the other struggles with years , to break free of the big obvious sin.

both are saved, because they BELIEVE.

you have rejected this view. that is what I disagree with you on.

 

[posthuman]

@posthuman
@VCO

Here is one example of what I am talking about. Tell me what you think of this post below. I bolded the important part

maybe we all don't have a common definition of the word 'regeneration'

i'm a math guy. i see math as a systematic search for truth. the first thing you do when you do math is formulate rigorous definitions. without that, you can't do math, because you can't be sure what you're talking about. to do math, your terms have to be 'well defined'

how do you define regeneration?
how does VCO define regeneration?

 

[Macabeus]

no, I did not. in took exception to the fact that you say that the EVIDENCE , OUTWARD, BASED ON BEHAVIOR, IS INSTANT.

as I have given you, multiple times, is this-

2 people come to Christ. one instantly stops the sin, the big obvious sin, the other struggles with years , to break free of the big obvious sin.

both are saved, because they BELIEVE.

you have rejected this view. that is what I disagree with you on.

Actually, if you had read my posts, you would have known that I have agreed with this multiple times. But you are like DC, EG, UG, and LS. You dont read the posts you reply to sometimes

 

[CherieR]

This is a song I really like and it has a good message. The video is sci-fi like and is also sweet in its presentation.

 

[Macabeus]

well, i know


maybe we all don't have a common definition of the word 'regeneration'

i'm a math guy. i see math as a systematic search for truth. the first thing you do when you do math is formulate rigorous definitions. without that, you can't do math, because you can't be sure what you're talking about. to do math, your terms have to be 'well defined'

how do you define regeneration?
how does VCO define regeneration?

Regeneration-

Being raised from spiritual death to spiritual life is one way to put it

Born again is another way to put it

New Creature is another way to put it.

No matter how you put it, it is always instantaneous with belief, while practical sanctification is progressive

 

[gb9]

Actually, if you had read my posts, you would have known that I have agreed with this multiple times. But you are like DC, EG, UG, and LS. You

again, regeneration, instant, yes. evidence of that, instantly, no.

 

[Macabeus]

again, regeneration, instant, yes. evidence of that, instantly, no.

But you said instant regeneration was a big fat lie?

And NO EVIDENCE of regeneration? None at all? Really?

 

[Lightskin]

@dcontroversal

@UnderGrace

@Lightskin

@eternally-gratefull

Look at the post GB9 is replying to, and tell me where I taught works salvation

That is why I accused DC of believing regeneration is a work we do. Because GB said this post is teacing a works salvation, when it is in fact teaching regeneration, and DC said “exactly” to the premise that what I stated was an admission to works salvation

GB9 denies that regeneration is instant for one who believes. You guys are REALLY confused

I am? 🤷‍♂️

 

[posthuman]

in took exception to the fact that you say that the EVIDENCE , OUTWARD, BASED ON BEHAVIOR, IS INSTANT.

((sic))

i agree with gb9

evidence of regeneration isn't necessarily instant. it may be but it may not be.

like, back to plants. some take longer than others to bloom. i reckon that's what DC meant but that's not incompatible with spiritual regeneration taking place immediately at salvation, because blooms & fruit ((i.e. works, behavioral change, etc)) are ((at least partially)) material.

i'm speaking from a standpoint of what people call 'total depravity' - i do believe that without the work of God in us, we are incapable of good; man in his native, sin-poisoned state is evil.

 

[posthuman]

No matter how you put it, it is always instantaneous with belief, while practical sanctification is progressive

i'd use the word simultaneous, in place of instantaneous. but whether it is actually simultaneous or not, is interesting to me, and i'm not sure about. i'd say, with your definition, and t being a time,
t(regeneration) ≤ t(belief)
that is, you have to be made alive before you can believe, because in unbelief, you are dead. so being made alive can't come after belief, but only before or at the same exact instant. depends on definition of 'belief' .. ?

 

[Macabeus]

((sic))

i agree with gb9

evidence of regeneration isn't necessarily instant. it may be but it may not be.

like, back to plants. some take longer than others to bloom. i reckon that's what DC meant but that's not incompatible with spiritual regeneration taking place immediately at salvation, because blooms & fruit ((i.e. works, behavioral change, etc)) are ((at least partially)) material.

i'm speaking from a standpoint of what people call 'total depravity' - i do believe that without the work of God in us, we are incapable of good; man in his native, sin-poisoned state is evil.

you agree with all of this?

"gb9, post: 4029093, member: 75543"]regeneration is not what your phony lordship junk teaches. saved by grace, proved by works.

trash. ( I never defined regeneration this way-Mac)

yes, I personally believe in regeneration, but you push INSTANT regeneration, that is a big fat lie. (No it's not- Mac)


it looks different for everyone. some folks are instantly regenerated (?- MAC) some it takes times for the Fruits of the Sprit to began to manifest. ,

all are saved the instant they believe, and stay so as long as they believe. ( I believe we continue to believe because we are saved- Mac)

regeneration is a separate conversation. (He cuts off regeneration from salvation-Mac)

 

[posthuman]

you agree with all of this?

with the part i quoted. i have no idea what 'lordship salvation' means to you or him, much less if you're really preaching it or he's mistaken. because i'm ill-informed. been thousands of posts since i was last keeping up with this thread.

so, in what you quoted, i agree with everything after the word trash. i am too ignorant to comment on the first part of gb9's post.