LOGIC IS BEDROCK
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I would not say that I am minimizing the value of logic. I do, however, believe that I am recognizing the proper place of logic. It is a necessary component of our material existence and we could not survive in this would without it. Our bodies are so ordered by the Creator that we must depend upon our five senses to tell us certain truths about our world. This is well and good because these things allow us to function within the confines of our natural surroundings. Our senses allow us to protect ourselves from potential harm. For example, I do not stick my hand in the fire because I know that heat radiation is painfully destructive to human tissue. I do not walk off the top of a twenty-story building because I know that the impact at the bottom will undoubtedly be fatal. I do not knowingly step out in front of a speeding vehicle because I know there is a determined relationship between my body and mass in motion that does not work in my favor. These facts are logically deduced. They are most certainly real and cannot simply be ignored. I trust my senses to warn me of potentially dangerous situations in everyday experiences. Our senses are instilled within each of us by the Creator and are indeed a necessary component of our material existence. The capacity to reason logically allows us to interpret the things around us in a useful way. We cannot, however, trust our five senses to tell us all the truth about reality. My senses do not tell me that the power of God manipulates, overrules, and overturns natural processes. I can only know this from revelation. Scripture shows us that in human history, God has repeatedly contravened and overturned established determined relations, which we generally refer to as “laws” of nature. I really do not like the term "laws" of nature because this suggest something that is immutable. By its very nature, the idea of law suggests something that cannot be countermanded or violated without consequence. This is how we understand what we regard as "natural laws." Since scripture reveals that these "laws" are subordinate to the will and power of God, I would suggest that a better term to describe this would be determined relations.Logic & Mind
Mind & The Fall:
Agreed.
Although logic is an intrinsic part of God's nature, and thus has no flaws, humans certainly fall short in our ability to apply it.
The human use of logic is limited, because we are both finite and fallen... we are incapable of understanding logic perfectly.
We are broken.
But we needn't minimize the value of logic; it's best, I think, if we recognize it as what it is - a supernatural gift directly from God, and part of the imago dei.
(The lost world, lifted up in pride, doesn't recognize this - but we can. We can recognize it as a wonderful gift from God.)
Our human mind is extremely wonderful and necessary: we need it to comprehend God, to comprehend the world he's placed us in, to communicate with him, to serve him, to server the brethren. Even though our reasoning is imperfect because of the fall, it is still part of the imago dei... and it is a great gift from God.
Misunderstanding:
And if someone is reading this and misunderstanding; I am not talking about thinking in some particular way, or with some particular method.
I am literally talking about the ability to think at all.
Without logic we would be unable to think at all.
We quite literally could not distinguish one thing from another.
We wouldn't be able to read even one word, or speak one word.
We couldn't distinguish a bowling ball from a shopping mall.
We would literally have no rational ability whatsoever.
We wouldn't be able to think.
I couldn't even reach up and find my own head.
That might not be much of a loss, lol.
Spirit & Mind Together:
To discern scripture, of course we also need the spirit to illuminate our minds, and guide us.
We need a rational mind, and we need the Holy Spirit... we must have both.
Both of these are gifts from God, and we need them both.
The lost world scoffs at the Holy Spirit, and it claims the rational mind as it's own invention!
Both of these views are blasphemy.
The Christian should not share any of these thoughts.
The Holy Spirit, and the rational mind, are both gifts from our creator.
They both come directly from God.
.
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Hebrews 6:18
18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged.
So if God cannot lie and he is in control over even the demons as evident also in Christ who told the demons to leave and take refuge in a herd of pigs. But yes we see that if a man chooses to constantly do what is evil than God doesn't have to protect them from the evil forces that like to latch on to Godless lifestyles.
Even whole nations can be given over to demonic influence.
Even the Lords prayer can hint at how God can use the tactics of the demonic forces to even bring about kingdom good and that help us grow as children. But only in a limited way because God also can not tempt.
James 1:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
The lords prayer has a verse saying,
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'
If we trust in God then God will protect us from evil and deliver us from evil.
By the way, I don't think that those who believe in libertarian free will have ANY basis for believing that Scripture is inerrant and inspired.
If you believe in libertarian free will, there is no reason to think that God inspired the men who wrote Scripture to do so, in a manner that addresses the situation at hand, using their own abilities, talents, and knowledge, while still writing Scripture in such a manner that the believer can consider it to be his authority, properly understood, transcending the gap between the audience's context and his own context.
Compatibilism perfectly accounts for the inerrancy and inspiration of Scripture. Libertarian free will does not.
Leighton Flowers, Jesse Morrell, and countless other "authorities" can claim libertarian free will all day long and I wouldn't be swayed. I already mentioned the intricate shadows and types that are embedded within Scripture, and how they were fulfilled in a manner that were very consistent. Both the shadows and types, and the fulfillment, were fairly detailed and convey spiritual lessons.
Like I have said, I do believe in creaturely free will, but it is subordinate to the person's fallen or redeemed nature, and is ultimately subordinate to God's sovereignty. Either passively or actively, God decrees all that happens. He either allows it, or causes it.
And, those who are attempting to deny God's sovereignty are dishonoring Him, if they are believers, because they are not honoring His work in their lives.
If you believe in libertarian free will, there is no reason to think that God inspired the men who wrote Scripture to do so, in a manner that addresses the situation at hand, using their own abilities, talents, and knowledge, while still writing Scripture in such a manner that the believer can consider it to be his authority, properly understood, transcending the gap between the audience's context and his own context.
Compatibilism perfectly accounts for the inerrancy and inspiration of Scripture. Libertarian free will does not.
Leighton Flowers, Jesse Morrell, and countless other "authorities" can claim libertarian free will all day long and I wouldn't be swayed. I already mentioned the intricate shadows and types that are embedded within Scripture, and how they were fulfilled in a manner that were very consistent. Both the shadows and types, and the fulfillment, were fairly detailed and convey spiritual lessons.
Like I have said, I do believe in creaturely free will, but it is subordinate to the person's fallen or redeemed nature, and is ultimately subordinate to God's sovereignty. Either passively or actively, God decrees all that happens. He either allows it, or causes it.
And, those who are attempting to deny God's sovereignty are dishonoring Him, if they are believers, because they are not honoring His work in their lives.
Faith is an essential component. However, if you don't use the principles of logic, you won't understand Scripture... or much of anything else. Most people use logic inherently without realizing it, and don't recognize its fundamental position in our thinking processes.
Logic is the opposite of faith. Logic is rooted in the observation of human experiences. Faith is rooted in things we cannot see, taste, touch, or smell. This being true, how would you explain the miracles by the use of logic?
I can't say that time is a product of those events because nothing suggests that it is, time is the perception that resulted as mortal man claimed to be created by an eternal God. Since a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, then can an eternal God create and eternal man if the eternal is distinguished from the mortal nature by having always existed? A very simple question that answers itself, but feel free to give what you believe the answer is if you disagree.
But to answer your question, based upon my observations I would say that the natural world has about the same possibility to tell us all the truth about reality as the Bible has to tell us all the truth about reality. So do believe that the Bible will guide you into all truth?
Logic is the opposite of Faith?
This view is held by a lot of very nice Christians who haven't had a lot of exposure to apologetics study.
When doing apologetics (dealing with hard questions from atheists) you have to be extraordinarily precise with both theological and logical definitions.
So in actuality, if we look at things closely... logic and faith are not antithetical.
Definitions:
This view usually stems from an imprecise definition of terms.
If we look at definitions more carefully, we'll see that logic and faith are not opposites.
To start with, if someone has any understanding of logic at all, they'll understand that the logical opposite of a thing is not some other thing. If a person doesn't understanding that statement, then they may not understand enough about logic to be arguing about logic.
We're getting into areas that most Christians simply haven't studied.
To be honest, logic isn't something most atheists have studied either.... it's a neglected discipline in the modern world.
It's going to take some time to sort all these things out... we've already raised a lot of different issues in this thread.
I'll pop in as I have time, and start going through some of these things.
Oldhermit,
I don't think we have any different views about God.
My goal isn't to argue with you or disparage you, but just to sort through messy issues and try to arrive at some better clarity.
God Bless.
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No atheist I have ever had the pleasure of conversing with was ever able to demonstrate or prove their claim of being in possession of superior logic and rationality over believers and people of faith. Quite the opposite in fact 
It is not possible for God to exhibit imperfections like lying. That goes against the definition of God.
The context of Matt 19:23-30 involves whether it is possible for a rich man to be saved. It is impossible for anyone to be saved of their own internal resources and merits.
Ezek 14:9 is interesting, though..here's some notes from the Biblical Theology Study Bible:
Ezekiel 14:9 14:9 I the LORD have enticed that prophet. As a form of judgment, the Lord will force a false prophet to falsely prophesy to an idolatrous inquirer (cf. 1 Kgs 22:19–23; Jer 20:7, 10). The Lord gives people over to their own desires (Rom 1:18–32; 2 Thess 2:9–12). God will then destroy both, resulting in a cleansing that leads to restoration of the covenantal relationship that once was (vv. 10–11).
(NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible)
God isn't obligated to speak through a false prophet, anyways...I doubt he speaks through any charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith "prophets" either.
The word miracle by definition is something not able to be accounted for or understood by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency. Logically it follows that Jesus, as creator of the universe, is Master over the elements He created, and can order (or re-order) any of them according to His will, which accounts for miracles.
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
no
they actually work together
in fact, I would say that your statement is 'illogical' as faith has reached its conclusions through the appliction of logic or reason if you will
faith, is certainly not outside of logice and vice versa
further, stating logic is rooted in the observation of human experiences, would never be possible since logic excludes, at least by the definition of so many in this thread it would seem, emotion
I understand maxwel, but I am not really concerned with definitions; what I am concerned with is how logic is viewed and how we use it as a means of deciding what is true or untrue. Regardless of how one may define the word itself, it is still impossible to explain the miracles in scripture by any appeal to the logic of natural process. It simply cannot be done. Logic will only take one so far. Beyond a certain point, it becomes useless as a means of determining the full truth about reality.
7
7seasrekeyed
Guest
"Dino246, post: 4036705, member: 223333"]I find this thread interesting in good and bad ways...
It's good that Roughsoul has started this thread and endeavoured to discuss the foundational principles of sound reasoning in discussion and argumentation.
It's unfortunate that the usual closed-minded response has been posted more than once: that logic is carnal thought, and that the person advocating the use of logic is carnally-minded. What rot.
As I've studied and employed logic, I've come to realize that God's word and ways are inherently and profoundly logical. At the same time, people on this site have tried to argue with me, claiming that that God's ways are "above" logic. What they are really saying is that their interpretation of Scripture is above logical examination. It's not surprising to find logical fallacies in their defense of their positions.
I reached the logical conclusion of the absolute logic of God years back without really understanding I had done so. You find God in the middle of any arguement never taking sides and therein lies the dilema so many calling themselves believers would realize they are in, by the simple fact God is never wrong and the Holy Spirit does not take sides either but refers, always, back to God
I love logic. It saves us from ourselves
true
you can smell the 'fear' of questionning what one has held on to for however long and the gasps at the 'lack of faith' that the employment of logic must, by aforementiooned fear, illogically contain
as I think about it, it seems to me that questionning is thought of as a sin in many circles. but God invites us to question...I am convinced there is no honest question He will not answer. answers may take time and sometimes years by the very nature of our own defenses that supply emotional barriers to answers we may not like
just as many do not seem to comprehend that love, God's love, is not a subjective emotion but an objective action/reality and not dependent on our good behavior
God has given and gives continually the same truth with no variation or shade of any change and we live in constant variation even within our own minds until we actually believe what many profess but do not live
that, is the fact that if we believed we would not believe what we know but what we do not, in fact, know. knowing God is going beyond our comprehension
but I guess I am also waxing philisophical now
as someone once put it, the Bible is not God
It's good that Roughsoul has started this thread and endeavoured to discuss the foundational principles of sound reasoning in discussion and argumentation.
It's unfortunate that the usual closed-minded response has been posted more than once: that logic is carnal thought, and that the person advocating the use of logic is carnally-minded. What rot.
As I've studied and employed logic, I've come to realize that God's word and ways are inherently and profoundly logical. At the same time, people on this site have tried to argue with me, claiming that that God's ways are "above" logic. What they are really saying is that their interpretation of Scripture is above logical examination. It's not surprising to find logical fallacies in their defense of their positions.
I reached the logical conclusion of the absolute logic of God years back without really understanding I had done so. You find God in the middle of any arguement never taking sides and therein lies the dilema so many calling themselves believers would realize they are in, by the simple fact God is never wrong and the Holy Spirit does not take sides either but refers, always, back to God
I love logic. It saves us from ourselves
true
you can smell the 'fear' of questionning what one has held on to for however long and the gasps at the 'lack of faith' that the employment of logic must, by aforementiooned fear, illogically contain
as I think about it, it seems to me that questionning is thought of as a sin in many circles. but God invites us to question...I am convinced there is no honest question He will not answer. answers may take time and sometimes years by the very nature of our own defenses that supply emotional barriers to answers we may not like
just as many do not seem to comprehend that love, God's love, is not a subjective emotion but an objective action/reality and not dependent on our good behavior
God has given and gives continually the same truth with no variation or shade of any change and we live in constant variation even within our own minds until we actually believe what many profess but do not live
that, is the fact that if we believed we would not believe what we know but what we do not, in fact, know. knowing God is going beyond our comprehension
but I guess I am also waxing philisophical now
as someone once put it, the Bible is not God
That is absolutely true Magenta, but this is not a truth we can conclude tough any observation of the anything in the natural world. In other words, we do not arrive at this conclusion through logic. We only know this because this information is revealed to us in scripture. In Acts 3 and 4, we find the account of Peter and John healing "a certain man lame from his mother’s womb." Even among the Jewish leaders and elders there was consensus that this was an unexplainable event, despite the fact that they could not deny it. The bottom line is that this remains an unexplainable event regardless of the all available medical knowledge, then or now. There is no logic that can explain such an occurrence. All the evidence can only point to one source. This was an act of God. This is of course true of all the miracles.