UNSAVED/UNSURE

[Noose]

Ok, I'm back.

First, I want to go back to your "I'm not worthy" comment. You've made it a few times. Brother, NO ONE is worthy, or has done ANYTHING to earn the saving grace of God! However, that does NOT mean we have to be "sad sack saints." Head hung down, long face woe is me attitude about our salvation. We should all be REJOICING for our salvation, and PROCLAIMING our salvation, for the precious blood of Christ MADE US WORTHY to be called the sons of God!

Hebrews 10:19, 22 “Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter
into the holiest by the blood of Jesus … Let us draw near with a true
heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an
evil conscience …”

As for "saints." The Apostle Paul called all believers saints.

Ephesians, Chapter 3:
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Colossians, Chapter 4:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

You also need to read and fully understand and believe in the Scriptures from 1 John that I posted above. How can one have the "joy" of God in their hearts if they do not believe that the precious blood of Christ has made them sons of God? Lift up your head, and proclaim your salvation!

(gonna split this in to two comments)

Ok but not alright. It is not ours to proclaim saved and unsaved, we need to 'work out our own salvation in fear and trembling'.

 

[p_rehbein]

Ok but not alright. It is not ours to proclaim saved and unsaved, we need to 'work out our own salvation in fear and trembling'.

Believers do that every day. All people judge others every day in one way or another. As I stated earlier, the do not judge Scripture simply means how you judge a person is how you will be judged. If we do not recognize that a person is unsaved, how, exactly, are we to determine who to witness to?

Every time you turn on the TV, read a Newspaper, or the News online, you hear stories of the horror and evil going on in the world, and you know that evil isn't "saved." Jesus commanded that we "go into the world" so, in fact, it IS OURS to determine who is saved and who isn't, otherwise we are not effectively witnessing for Christ. What good does it do to witness to the Church? Do we increase the Kingdom by doing that?

Matthew, Chapter 10:

27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

That second statement is worrisome because it sounds a wee bit like that dreaded phrase "works salvation." I'll think on how to properly respond so as to avoid an onslaught of comments dealing with that and not the subject of the OP.

Get some coffee, and have a great day.

 

[mailmandan]

Ok but not alright. It is not ours to proclaim saved and unsaved, we need to 'work out our own salvation in fear and trembling'.

Are you saying that the Spirit Himself does not bear witness with our spirit that we are children of God? (Romans 8:16) or that those who believe in the name of the Son of God cannot know they have eternal life? (1 John 5:13)
In regards to working out our salvation in Philippians 2:12, notice that Paul said to "work out" our salvation and not "work for" our salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have.

The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which involves the work of the person who is not passive in the process, but it's still God working in the believer to God both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (vs. 13) There are 3 tenses to salvation which often get mixed up by works-salvationists: 1. Justification 2. Ongoing Sanctification 3. Glorification

 

[Noose]

Are you saying that the Spirit Himself does not bear witness with our spirit that we are children of God? (Romans 8:16) or that those who believe in the name of the Son of God cannot know they have eternal life? (1 John 5:13)
In regards to working out our salvation in Philippians 2:12, notice that Paul said to "work out" our salvation and not "work for" our salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have.

The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which involves the work of the person who is not passive in the process, but it's still God working in the believer to God both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (vs. 13) There are 3 tenses to salvation which often get mixed up by works-salvationists: 1. Justification 2. Ongoing Sanctification 3. Glorification

1. What is a spirit? what part of us is the spirit?

If you understand what a spirit is, then you will not be talking the way you are i believe.

2. About salvation and continuously working out; why work for something you already have and can not loose? What would happen if we stop, actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification?

 

[Noose]

Believers do that every day. All people judge others every day in one way or another. As I stated earlier, the do not judge Scripture simply means how you judge a person is how you will be judged. If we do not recognize that a person is unsaved, how, exactly, are we to determine who to witness to?

Every time you turn on the TV, read a Newspaper, or the News online, you hear stories of the horror and evil going on in the world, and you know that evil isn't "saved." Jesus commanded that we "go into the world" so, in fact, it IS OURS to determine who is saved and who isn't, otherwise we are not effectively witnessing for Christ. What good does it do to witness to the Church? Do we increase the Kingdom by doing that?

Matthew, Chapter 10:

27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

That second statement is worrisome because it sounds a wee bit like that dreaded phrase "works salvation." I'll think on how to properly respond so as to avoid an onslaught of comments dealing with that and not the subject of the OP.

Get some coffee, and have a great day.

A belief is something entrenched in someone's heart that can not be judged by the outward proclamation. Only God searches the heart of a man, therefore, only God can judge a man.

 

[mailmandan]

1. What is a spirit? what part of us is the spirit?

If you understand what a spirit is, then you will not be talking the way you are i believe.

2. About salvation and continuously working out; why work for something you already have and can not loose? What would happen if we stop, actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification?

The spirit is the intangible part of man that governs man’s mental and emotional existence which include intellect, emotions, passions etc.. What makes you think that I don't know what a spirit is?

In regards to "work out" your salvation, you apparently interpret that to mean "work to maintain" your salvation. It's not about working to keep salvation - "type 2 works salvation." Once again, there are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification); 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification); 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification) Where does the Bible say that those who are born of God stop actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification?

 

[Noose]

The spirit is the intangible part of man that governs man’s mental and emotional existence which include intellect, emotions, passions etc.. What makes you think that I don't know what a spirit is?

In regards to "work out" your salvation, you apparently interpret that to mean "work to maintain" your salvation. It's not about working to keep salvation - "type 2 works salvation." Once again, there are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification); 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification); 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification) Where does the Bible say that those who are born of God stop actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification?

1. Wrong
So do you mean "..the intangible part that governs God’s mental and emotional existence which include intellect, emotions, passions etc" bears witness with our ".. intangible part that governs our mental and emotional existence which include intellect, emotions, passions etc" that we are His sons?

Nope.
Spirit is an understanding and God is the truth (or the understanding of truth) so we come to learn the truth when the spirit of God bears witness with our spirit. It is an ongoing process and not an event where something or some intangible part whispers and tells you something.
It is also said the spirit of God cries 'Abba' in us. It doesn't mean that there's something that usually cries in you, it only means you are in a learning curve.

2. You said " we actively pursue the ongoing process of sanctification". The statement "we actively pursue" shows we are willingly applying an effort towards something. And i'm asking you, what happens if we willingly stop this active pursuit?
I did not say the bible says anything about stopping sanctification, i'm engaging what you are saying which is obviously unbiblical.

 

[mailmandan]

1. Wrong
So do you mean "..the intangible part that governs God’s mental and emotional existence which include intellect, emotions, passions etc" bears witness with our ".. intangible part that governs our mental and emotional existence which include intellect, emotions, passions etc" that we are His sons?

Nope.
Spirit is an understanding and God is the truth (or the understanding of truth) so we come to learn the truth when the spirit of God bears witness with our spirit. It is an ongoing process and not an event where something or some intangible part whispers and tells you something.
It is also said the spirit of God cries 'Abba' in us. It doesn't mean that there's something that usually cries in you, it only means you are in a learning curve.

2. You said " we actively pursue the ongoing process of sanctification". The statement "we actively pursue" shows we are willingly applying an effort towards something. And i'm asking you, what happens if we willingly stop this active pursuit?
I did not say the bible says anything about stopping sanctification, i'm engaging what you are saying which is obviously unbiblical.

It's you who is wrong and as usual, you are making things out to be more complicated than they really are. I think you just like to argue. Man is made up of body, soul and spirit. It's not an ongoing process to some day discover that the Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. Those who are truly born of God know they are children of God and do not stop the active pursuit of ongoing sanctification, although some will grow faster than others.

We are to work out our salvation with fear/reverence to God and not fear and bondage to insecurity about our salvation, the same kind of fear and bondage that I experienced prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago. Insecurity goes hand in hand with works salvation.

In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

 

[Noose]

It's you who is wrong and as usual, you are making things out to be more complicated than they really are. I think you just like to argue. Man is made up of body, soul and spirit. It's not an ongoing process to some day discover that the Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. Those who are truly born of God know they are children of God and do not stop the active pursuit of ongoing sanctification, although some will grow faster than others.

We are to work out our salvation with fear/reverence to God and not fear and bondage to insecurity about our salvation, the same kind of fear and bondage that I experienced prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago. Insecurity goes hand in hand with works salvation.

In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

Nope.
Nothing more than a misunderstanding that has been passed down from generation to generation.

1st, you have the wrong idea about what a 'spirit' is. Picking your definition from a dictionary doesn't help your course too. 2nd, anything you try to explain about the spirit having the wrong idea of the spirit is inherently wrong.

Matt 25:34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Q. Did the spirit bear witness to them (above) that they are the sons of God?

 

[mailmandan]

Nope.
Nothing more than a misunderstanding that has been passed down from generation to generation.

1st, you have the wrong idea about what a 'spirit' is. Picking your definition from a dictionary doesn't help your course too. 2nd, anything you try to explain about the spirit having the wrong idea of the spirit is inherently wrong.

Matt 25:34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Q. Did the spirit bear witness to them (above) that they are the sons of God?

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. It’s not that complicated to understand what man’s spirit is. So since the righteous answered to Jesus, “when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?,” your implication is they had no idea they were children of God?, so Romans 8:16 is a lie?

 

[Noose]

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. It’s not that complicated to understand what man’s spirit is. So since the righteous answered to Jesus, “when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?,” your implication is they had no idea they were children of God?, so Romans 8:16 is a lie?

I'm not saying Rom 8:16 is a lie but could it be that you misunderstood Rom 8? or do you take your understanding as 'truth' and then superimpose the bible upon your 'truth'?

Matthew 25 demonstrates the reality. Those that are righteous don't know they are or rather the judgement outcome catches them by surprise and, in that chapter and many others, we see that those that have 'always known' (thought) they were righteous are being told they are not. So, the spirit bearing with our spirit has nothing to do with what you teach.

Concerning the spirit of God being in man:

Job 32:8But there is a spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.

Job 27:3as long as my breath is still within me and the breath of God remains in my nostrils, 4my lips will not speak wickedness, and my tongue will not utter deceit.

Ecc 3:9What does the worker gain from his toil? 10I have seen the burden that God has laid on men to occupy them. 11He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men, yet they cannot fathom the work that God has done from beginning to end.

The spirit of God is in all men (believers and unbelievers alike) judging them; sustaining believers but also condemning those that are not His.

 

[mailmandan]

I'm not saying Rom 8:16 is a lie but could it be that you misunderstood Rom 8? or do you take your understanding as 'truth' and then superimpose the bible upon your 'truth'?

Matthew 25 demonstrates the reality. Those that are righteous don't know they are or rather the judgement outcome catches them by surprise and, in that chapter and many others, we see that those that have 'always known' (thought) they were righteous are being told they are not. So, the spirit bearing with our spirit has nothing to do with what you teach.

Concerning the spirit of God being in man:

Job 32:8But there is a spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.

Job 27:3as long as my breath is still within me and the breath of God remains in my nostrils, 4my lips will not speak wickedness, and my tongue will not utter deceit.

Ecc 3:9What does the worker gain from his toil? 10I have seen the burden that God has laid on men to occupy them. 11He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men, yet they cannot fathom the work that God has done from beginning to end.

The spirit of God is in all men (believers and unbelievers alike) judging them; sustaining believers but also condemning those that are not His.

Like I said. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. Moving on...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. It’s not that complicated to understand what man’s spirit is. So since the righteous answered to Jesus, “when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?,” your implication is they had no idea they were children of God?, so Romans 8:16 is a lie?

Let me guess. Mr Noose?

 

[Noose]

Like I said. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. Moving on...

My advice, never stop to speak to a brick wall, just move on.

 

[p_rehbein]

A belief is something entrenched in someone's heart that can not be judged by the outward proclamation. Only God searches the heart of a man, therefore, only God can judge a man.

You know this is in direct contradiction to what Jesus Himself said, right? Seriously. I gave the Scripture concerning this already. However, as a reminder, Jesus said we would know "them by their fruits/works."

I'm wondering, have you ever witnessed to anyone? Shared the Gospel with anyone?

 

[notuptome]

Believers do that every day. All people judge others every day in one way or another. As I stated earlier, the do not judge Scripture simply means how you judge a person is how you will be judged. If we do not recognize that a person is unsaved, how, exactly, are we to determine who to witness to?

Every time you turn on the TV, read a Newspaper, or the News online, you hear stories of the horror and evil going on in the world, and you know that evil isn't "saved." Jesus commanded that we "go into the world" so, in fact, it IS OURS to determine who is saved and who isn't, otherwise we are not effectively witnessing for Christ. What good does it do to witness to the Church? Do we increase the Kingdom by doing that?

Matthew, Chapter 10:

27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

That second statement is worrisome because it sounds a wee bit like that dreaded phrase "works salvation." I'll think on how to properly respond so as to avoid an onslaught of comments dealing with that and not the subject of the OP.

Get some coffee, and have a great day.

Believers are to judge righteous judgments every day. We judge according to what the word of God show is righteous and unrighteous. We know unsaved folks by what proceeds out of their mouths. We know believers by the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. We judge not unto condemnation but we do know them who are of the body of Christ by their fruits.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Noose]

You know this is in direct contradiction to what Jesus Himself said, right? Seriously. I gave the Scripture concerning this already. However, as a reminder, Jesus said we would know "them by their fruits/works."

I'm wondering, have you ever witnessed to anyone? Shared the Gospel with anyone?

You'll know them by their fruits because they preach water but drink wine.

He also said:
Matt 23:3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

The thief on the cross. How would you judge the thief on right side of Jesus?

 

[Noose]

Luke 17:20Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Nor can anyone claim, "look, he belongs to or they belong to or she behaves like one of them".

 

[pottersclay]

They will know you for the love you have for one another...that's what scripture says. What does love demand?? That is the question.
Jesus said ...if you love me you'll keep my commandments. So this love is not a emotion but a action.
There are two ways we grow in the love of Christ. By people who love us and by people who hurt and offend us.
Following the commands of our savior ....to forgive....not seek vengeance....wishing no ill will on anyone....to give....to share the burden ...to share the truth ...ECT is how we represent Christ.,And grow in the knowledge and truth.
The love of the father compells that is the power of the Gospel. It brakes down defences...gives sight to the blind...mends a broken and contrite heart....and gives breath to that which is dead.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Known for his kindness, meekness, and truthfulness. Jesus made himself approachable, by anybody. Even his enemies. At the same time he remained holy. Always listening and obeying the word of the father. Which allowed the Holy Spirit to do his work in leading and bringing forth fruit. Always remember Jesus was not alone as we are not alone. The Holy Spirit led Jesus throughout his ministry as he obeyed the voice of the Lord. This is the witness.
We need to follow that example to become the salt and light we are called to be.
To love only the fellowship is useless, to love all that the Lord puts on your path is priceless.