Prayer of the Arminian, Charles Spurgeon
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Agreed. I'm not sure exactly whom you are addressing in this post, but do you know that the Gospel of Christ has been thoroughly distorted by Reformed Theology? So if we must focus of the Gospel, then every Christian must have the same Gospel that is revealed by God -- the Gospel of Grace, not the *Gospel of Sovereignty*.
The Gospel of Grace is quite simple. Christ Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world, and God desires the salvation of ALL HUMANITY. But every sinner must obey the Gospel in order to be saved.
The Gospel of Grace is quite simple. Christ Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world, and God desires the salvation of ALL HUMANITY. But every sinner must obey the Gospel in order to be saved.
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Honestly, I am just now learning all the different theologies...so if I am honest my answer to your question is no i did not know...
but do you know that the Gospel of Christ has been thoroughly distorted by Reformed Theology
I, 100% agree with this...
The Gospel of Grace is quite simple. Christ Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world, and God desires the salvation of ALL HUMANITY. But every sinner must obey the Gospel in order to be saved.
The open theism , free will libertarianism, calvinism, armenianism, molinism, and so on are fascinating in that it helps me understand how so many different doctrines and interpretations can come from one book, with one truth, with the help of one Holy Spirit.
There has to be harmony within all the verses. I think that harmony, when it comes right down to it is found in the Gospel of Christ... His Grace.
Our God is all knowing and all good. He loves us enough to give us a choice and made a way for us to make the right choice through His Elected Son.
There is so much to learn and with His help we can find more and more understanding. But trying to become all knowing about our God is way out of my league, and way above my pay grade. We are His children, told to trust Him. Know Him with intimacy, seek Him, but never seek to reach beyond His embrace of Grace. His Grace is sufficient.
Honestly, would we worship a God we could fully understand. Isn't that just another component of what it is to be a Glorified God...He is and we are not?
Otherwise, why would He tell us NOT to lean on our own understanding?
Ours is to...
To love Him with all our hearts, souls and minds, putting all our trust in Him and His Goodness.
To love others with all our hearts, showing genuine mercy and care.
Your knowledge is way beyond my Nehemiah and I love studying the word, very much. Oh how I sincerely admire you who know much concerning His word. However, I still believe knowing the love of God in my heart will always outweigh knowledge of Him in my mind.
Does that make sense?
Maybe that is because I do not "know" enough....
but do you know that the Gospel of Christ has been thoroughly distorted by Reformed Theology
I, 100% agree with this...
The Gospel of Grace is quite simple. Christ Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world, and God desires the salvation of ALL HUMANITY. But every sinner must obey the Gospel in order to be saved.
The open theism , free will libertarianism, calvinism, armenianism, molinism, and so on are fascinating in that it helps me understand how so many different doctrines and interpretations can come from one book, with one truth, with the help of one Holy Spirit.
There has to be harmony within all the verses. I think that harmony, when it comes right down to it is found in the Gospel of Christ... His Grace.
Our God is all knowing and all good. He loves us enough to give us a choice and made a way for us to make the right choice through His Elected Son.
There is so much to learn and with His help we can find more and more understanding. But trying to become all knowing about our God is way out of my league, and way above my pay grade. We are His children, told to trust Him. Know Him with intimacy, seek Him, but never seek to reach beyond His embrace of Grace. His Grace is sufficient.
Honestly, would we worship a God we could fully understand. Isn't that just another component of what it is to be a Glorified God...He is and we are not?
Otherwise, why would He tell us NOT to lean on our own understanding?
Ours is to...
To love Him with all our hearts, souls and minds, putting all our trust in Him and His Goodness.
To love others with all our hearts, showing genuine mercy and care.
Your knowledge is way beyond my Nehemiah and I love studying the word, very much. Oh how I sincerely admire you who know much concerning His word. However, I still believe knowing the love of God in my heart will always outweigh knowledge of Him in my mind.
Does that make sense?
Maybe that is because I do not "know" enough....
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Also, remember all of the scriptures must harmonize to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught. Your statement that Christ Jesus died on the cross for the sins of all mankind will not harmonize with John 6:38. We, also must rightly divide the scriptures and all of them should be in harmony with each other. The Holy Spirit reveals the mystery of the scriptures unto us, and he will not reveal unless we deny ourselves ( give up on our own intelligence and rely upon the Holy Spirit to reveal) otherwise he knows we would take credit for our own intelligence instead of giving God the credit. That is why Jesus thanked his Father for hiding the truth in a mystery to dumbfound the wise and prudent and reveals it unto babes.
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Yes, very simply by a work of the faith of Christ according to his 3 day labor of love. By it we are born again from above. God always does the first work . Satan would snatch that seed
So then it seems you are saying we are saved by our own work of faith that we offer towards Him and not His working in us towards us ?
Where does the faith come from? Above or earthly?
What if some do not believe (no faith) will it make the faith of God that works in us without effect? If so how could we prove God to be true and every man a liar?
Many say God does not have faith or need it?
Roman3:2-4 For what if some did not believe? (no faith) shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and "mightest overcome" when thou art judged.
So then it seems you are saying we are saved by our own work of faith that we offer towards Him and not His working in us towards us ?
Where does the faith come from? Above or earthly?
What if some do not believe (no faith) will it make the faith of God that works in us without effect? If so how could we prove God to be true and every man a liar?
Many say God does not have faith or need it?
Roman3:2-4 For what if some did not believe? (no faith) shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and "mightest overcome" when thou art judged.
Only the father knows it all . Everyone else is on a learning curve. Just like the Son of man, Jesus.
Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
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John 6:38? Allow me to first say, that I do not believe John 6:39 and John 6:40 are speaking of identical things (as though the writer is simply repeating a truth twice, here). I believe verse 39 is speaking of something distinct from verse 40 (though not wholly unrelated). Verse 40 is speaking of "persons"... whereas v.39 is speaking of "things" (so to speak) which were given Him (such as "government/governance/rule" etc...)
2 Cor 5 -
14 For the love of Christ compels us, having concluded this, that One has died for all, therefore all have died. 15 And He died for all that those living no longer should live to themselves, but to the One having died for them and having been raised again.
2 Cor 5 -
14 For the love of Christ compels us, having concluded this, that One has died for all, therefore all have died. 15 And He died for all that those living no longer should live to themselves, but to the One having died for them and having been raised again.
The context indicates otherwise.
Besides, John 6:44 says this:
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day (ESV)
This is talking about a resurrection to glory. In other words, all the Father draws will be raised up in glory.
Additionally, if you read the entire chapter, there are multiple statements concerning the chain of redemption that don't allow for the possibility of failure.
Regarding the other verse, there's no contradiction between Reformed theology and "everyone who believes" or "whosoever believes" in Reformed theology.
The teaching of Reformed theology is that God regenerates sinners, changing their nature, leading to faith and repentance.
Therefore, anyone who brings up John 3:16 or similar verses in response to Reformed theology isn't really responding with anything meaningful since the real issue is, what creates belief? Of course, the Reformed person believes that everyone who responds in faith and repentance will receive eternal life, because only the elect will respond in faith and repentance due to the changed nature.
For the free-willer, faith and repentance is something self-manufactured, and under the control of the person. For the Reformed person, it is a result of the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit.
For the free-willer, you exercise faith and repentance in order to receive a new nature that wants to please and love God. For the Reformed believer, God regenerates and changes your nature to want to please and love God, and the response is faith and repentance.
This is needed due to the fallen, corrupted nature that is a result of the Fall.
Decisional regeneration (regeneration as a result of a decision made by a corrupted man rather than something God does) is really backwards, and it also offers individuals reasons to glory in their own merits.
Spiritual troglodytes hate the light, and that's exactly what unbelievers are:
John 3:19-21 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” (ESV)
Besides, John 6:44 says this:
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day (ESV)
This is talking about a resurrection to glory. In other words, all the Father draws will be raised up in glory.
Additionally, if you read the entire chapter, there are multiple statements concerning the chain of redemption that don't allow for the possibility of failure.
Regarding the other verse, there's no contradiction between Reformed theology and "everyone who believes" or "whosoever believes" in Reformed theology.
The teaching of Reformed theology is that God regenerates sinners, changing their nature, leading to faith and repentance.
Therefore, anyone who brings up John 3:16 or similar verses in response to Reformed theology isn't really responding with anything meaningful since the real issue is, what creates belief? Of course, the Reformed person believes that everyone who responds in faith and repentance will receive eternal life, because only the elect will respond in faith and repentance due to the changed nature.
For the free-willer, faith and repentance is something self-manufactured, and under the control of the person. For the Reformed person, it is a result of the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit.
For the free-willer, you exercise faith and repentance in order to receive a new nature that wants to please and love God. For the Reformed believer, God regenerates and changes your nature to want to please and love God, and the response is faith and repentance.
This is needed due to the fallen, corrupted nature that is a result of the Fall.
Decisional regeneration (regeneration as a result of a decision made by a corrupted man rather than something God does) is really backwards, and it also offers individuals reasons to glory in their own merits.
Spiritual troglodytes hate the light, and that's exactly what unbelievers are:
John 3:19-21 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” (ESV)
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I feel the exact opposite. When I was unsure of my security as a believer, that each sin could lose me my salvation, I was constantly depressed. Because we can never be good enough to deserve salvation, and I knew it!
Once I realized that God saved me, and he would never leave or forsake me, I became the most joyful person in the world!
How glorious to know God loves you, and won't let you go! It spurred me to walk closer to Jesus and obey his will Even more. It also helped me trust God more, and I felt free for the first time in my life, the freedom to follow Christ!
How despairing to think that our salvation is dependent on our fallen, weak selves, and that we can go backwards from being new creatures in Christ, to being dead men again. That simply is not true! The Bible says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." 2 Cor 5:17
There is no verse that says we will be old and dead again. I'm talking about real conversion, led by the Holy Spirit, not some wishful type of sinner's prayer!
Once I realized that God saved me, and he would never leave or forsake me, I became the most joyful person in the world!
How glorious to know God loves you, and won't let you go! It spurred me to walk closer to Jesus and obey his will Even more. It also helped me trust God more, and I felt free for the first time in my life, the freedom to follow Christ!
How despairing to think that our salvation is dependent on our fallen, weak selves, and that we can go backwards from being new creatures in Christ, to being dead men again. That simply is not true! The Bible says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." 2 Cor 5:17
There is no verse that says we will be old and dead again. I'm talking about real conversion, led by the Holy Spirit, not some wishful type of sinner's prayer!
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Depends on what you mean by "raised up to glory"... do you mean, "to heaven"?
Do you recall my posts about the 1Cor15:23's [Grk word] "EACH [meaning, 'of more than two']"? and "each IN HIS OWN ORDER"? and Rev20:6's "having A PART"? (meaning, there doesn't remain only ONE, as in a "general resurrection" [at a singular point in time only]).
And my posts about how Daniel 12:1-4, Hosea 5:15-6:3, Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23, Isaiah 26:16-21, Romans 11:15[25], and others, do not speak of a physical/bodily resurrection from the dead (but pertain to Israel's "future")?
And how I do not believe the phrase "AT/IN the last day" ["the last day" in particular] refers to "a singular 24-hr day" but a time period of much duration (and yes, this particular "resurrection" occurs on a singular 24-hr day WITHIN "The Last Day [i.e. 7th Millennium]"), and that I believe viewing the phrase "the last day" as the last 24-hr day causes people to confuse and conflate a number of things, such as to view 1Cor15:24's "THEN the end" as saying something it does not say (it does not convey "THEN [immediately] the end]," but "THEN [sequentially] the end" which is an entirely different meaning [per the Grk word used for "THEN" here--a SEQUENCE word, with NO 'time-element' attached; and the first TWO items LISTED were some 2000-yrs apart, thus the next TWO items LISTED have no problem being 1000-yrs apart])
And I covered some of the thoughts regarding John 6:44, here: Post #99 - https://christianchat.com/threads/is-unconditional-election-biblical.187730/post-4045273
Do you recall my posts about the 1Cor15:23's [Grk word] "EACH [meaning, 'of more than two']"? and "each IN HIS OWN ORDER"? and Rev20:6's "having A PART"? (meaning, there doesn't remain only ONE, as in a "general resurrection" [at a singular point in time only]).
And my posts about how Daniel 12:1-4, Hosea 5:15-6:3, Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23, Isaiah 26:16-21, Romans 11:15[25], and others, do not speak of a physical/bodily resurrection from the dead (but pertain to Israel's "future")?
And how I do not believe the phrase "AT/IN the last day" ["the last day" in particular] refers to "a singular 24-hr day" but a time period of much duration (and yes, this particular "resurrection" occurs on a singular 24-hr day WITHIN "The Last Day [i.e. 7th Millennium]"), and that I believe viewing the phrase "the last day" as the last 24-hr day causes people to confuse and conflate a number of things, such as to view 1Cor15:24's "THEN the end" as saying something it does not say (it does not convey "THEN [immediately] the end]," but "THEN [sequentially] the end" which is an entirely different meaning [per the Grk word used for "THEN" here--a SEQUENCE word, with NO 'time-element' attached; and the first TWO items LISTED were some 2000-yrs apart, thus the next TWO items LISTED have no problem being 1000-yrs apart])
And I covered some of the thoughts regarding John 6:44, here: Post #99 - https://christianchat.com/threads/is-unconditional-election-biblical.187730/post-4045273