Are the Ends always justified by the Means?

[Roughsoul1991]

some truth in what you say. I used to think in absolutes like you. and i think when we backslide we do need a wake up call. But ive changed my image of God. He is not out to get us for breaking rules. He wants the best for us. He understands when we are forced into desperate circumstances. He forgives but only if we show the same empathy and flexibility as Him.

If you once thought in absolutes then what do you think now?

You say

But ive changed my image of God. He is not out to get us for breaking rules. He wants the best for us.

Kinda a odd statement because without Christ regardless of how much God wants the best for us, the unbelievers will be sent the Hell for their debt in sin which sin is the breaking of the moral and written law. Heaven and Hell exist for a reason.

 

[morefaithrequired]

If you once thought in absolutes then what do you think now?

You say



Kinda a odd statement because without Christ regardless of how much God wants the best for us, the unbelievers will be sent the Hell for their debt in sin which sin is the breaking of the moral and written law. Heaven and Hell exist for a reason.

I was never one to talk about Hell and damnation. It seems to infer we are judging . Not God. Let God worry about that.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I've always said semantics or 'nit picking' gets in the way of good old common sense. My friend's Dad used to say 'common sense isn't so common'. How true.
I think we all have to live in the real world, as Jesus did. I'm no Bible expert by any means, but didn't Jesus cry out to his Father to spare him from being crucified? (if you have the Bible link to this, do please post it for me).
We all have brains to make decisions, and sometimes, those decisions have to be made in a mere split second. Also, kids are not equipped the same as adults to make informed decisions, and are immature so at times make split decisions towards violence or to kill (there's a program on about that at the moment down here called 'Kids who kill').
We also must follow the law of the land so to speak, as we do live on an earth that has been been created by God, but there are societal rules that if not followed, have to be punished somehow (the whole debate about execution is another one for another time methinks).
I've cared for and worked with people from the worse backgrounds and who have been put in the worse situations imaginable - stuff that if I COULD tell you you'd not believe me, or think I was at the very least exaggerating. (I can't say too much without breaching confidentiality however, so I have to be very careful). If I COULD breach confidentiality, I could tell you one story that was so horrific, it gave me nightmares for months on end. I'm still not over it and have thought about that poor person many, many times & wonder how she is going.
Is a woman who turns to prostitution to feed her starving kids wrong, because in her country she can't get social security help, or she's tried everything to get food? Is a woman who was abused and assaulted in the most obscene ways possible wrong for killing her abusers? Is a person wrong for killing a man who is raping her? Is it wrong to defend your life against someone who is attacking you, with the intent to kill you? Is committing suicide wrong?
I think common sense and the law of the land has to prevail with this type of question.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Is a woman who turns to prostitution to feed her starving kids wrong, because in her country she can't get social security help, or she's tried everything to get food? Is a woman who was abused and assaulted in the most obscene ways possible wrong for killing her abusers? Is a person wrong for killing a man who is raping her? Is it wrong to defend your life against someone who is attacking you, with the intent to kill you? Is committing suicide wrong?

All of these can be answered from a Biblical worldview and could find great freedom in Biblical Therapy.

I think common sense and the law of the land has to prevail with this type of question.

As you said yourself. Common sense isnt very common. Wisdom is found in God. The law of the land can either be just or unjust. God's the ultimate judge gives us the best book for creating just laws. The best example a just judge and how to to judge situations in life.

The Bible is the blueprint for life or the manual to have the best outcome. Common sense doesn't heal the heart of these victims. The law of the land doesn't heal it either. All they do is either convict or exonerate.

 

[tasha66]

Thank you for your thoughts.
All of these can be answered from a Biblical worldview and could find great freedom in Biblical Therapy.
As you said yourself. Common sense isnt very common. Wisdom is found in God. The law of the land can either be just or unjust. God's the ultimate judge gives us the best book for creating just laws. The best example a just judge and how to to judge situations in life.
The Bible is the blueprint for life or the manual to have the best outcome. Common sense doesn't heal the heart of these victims. The law of the land doesn't heal it either. All they do is either convict or exonerate.

I don't know what biblical therapy is sorry.
I'm also not disagreeing or agreeing with you. Sometimes we are put in situations, or born into situations, that are absolutely hideous. Abused people for example (including ALL forms of abuse), especially over many YEARS of abuse, don't always make the best moral decisions.
People's moral conscience and actions are their own. God will judge them eventually. But we need a justice system to stop everybody just descending into chaos.
And I don't understand this sentence:
'The best example a just judge and how to to judge situations in life.'

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I was never one to talk about Hell and damnation. It seems to infer we are judging . Not God. Let God worry about that.

How is speaking on Hell judging if the Word of God speaks on Hell?

I'm curious. Tell me which scripture should we hide from unbelievers? Both taught by Jesus.

This one

Matthew 13:47-50
47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Or this one.

Matthew 22:37
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

Define Judging as in what do you consider judging?

 

[morefaithrequired]

How is speaking on Hell judging if the Word of God speaks on Hell?

I'm curious. Tell me which scripture should we hide from unbelievers? Both taught by Jesus.

This one

Matthew 13:47-50
47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Or this one.

Matthew 22:37
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

Define Judging as in what do you consider judging?

In my humble opinion itvis not helpful to quote harsh scripture to non believers. Its out of context with Gods main message which is love. Plus it is just reinforcing their negative stereotyping of Christianity. Communication and choice of scripture is very important.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I don't know what biblical therapy is sorry.
I'm also not disagreeing or agreeing with you. Sometimes we are put in situations, or born into situations, that are absolutely hideous. Abused people for example (including ALL forms of abuse), especially over many YEARS of abuse, don't always make the best moral decisions.
People's moral conscience and actions are their own. God will judge them eventually. But we need a justice system to stop everybody just descending into chaos.
And I don't understand this sentence:
'The best example a just judge and how to to judge situations in life.'

I agree and my sentence seems to miss a word or two.

The best example of a just judge or a righteous judge is God. Judging situations in life calls for Biblical discernment. The Word of God helps us in wisdom to make sound judgments. This is what helps us to steer through the immortality of the world and in obedience we can determine right or wrong.

Biblical Therapy is basically the same technique as regular therapy but obviously involves the Bible. In healing I believe we have 3 areas that can be damaged. Body, mind and soul.

Body is the brain and damage that abuse can cause within the brain.

Mind is the subconscious trauma and how that can cause reactions in the consciousness and then once conscious or aware of these feelings the brain reacts to solve the problem by creating signals and chemical reactions that bring about fear, anxiety, depression, etc.

Soul is the spiritual damage than can come from guilt, sin, or attacks from evil forces like the Devil and his lies. The soul is often extremely ignored. And people miss the spiritual healing that only God can bring. Sometimes just knowing that God forgives is enough in itself to help a PTSD victim to find healing from the acts of war. Or for the prostitute to know they are loved and that hope can always be found in God.

A Biblical counselor will address all 3. Sometimes meds to help the brain. Sometimes advice to help the victim understand their mind and possibly the source of triggers. And soul with scripture and Biblically wise discussions.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

In my humble opinion itvis not helpful to quote harsh scripture to non believers. Its out of context with Gods main message which is love. Plus it is just reinforcing their negative stereotyping of Christianity. Communication and choice of scripture is very important.

So was Jesus too harsh when he spoke on Hell?

Or too harsh when he called the corrupt teachers and pharisees hypocrites or even that they where like rotting corpses.

Matthew 23:27
27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.

Or too harsh when Jesus said

Luke 13:31-32
31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, “Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you.”

32 He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.’

Or when Jesus made a whip and drove out the money changers and thieves within the temple walls?

We need the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Sin, death, and Hell are interwoven with grace, life, and Heaven.

 

[morefaithrequired]

We dont have to frighten people into faith. I would never say to a gay person " you will go to Hell if you keep practising sex". Small wonder they either leave the faith or never sign up. But then I dont think every single word of the Bible is the irrefutable truth. Certainly not all the literal truth.
I see our job as Christians as living the Gospel, not quoting it.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

We dont have to frighten people into faith. I would never say to a gay person " you will go to Hell if you keep practising sex". Small wonder they either leave the faith or never sign up. But then I dont think every single word of the Bible is the irrefutable truth. Certainly not all the literal truth.
I see our job as Christians as living the Gospel, not quoting it.

Ah I was sensing this. So why do you believe the Bible is not the irrefutable truth? As for literal truth you will have to define.

I see our job as Christians as living the Gospel, not quoting it.

So was Paul in the wrong as a Christian for quoting the Words of Jesus and the Old Testament? Or really any preacher? Paul didn't get beheaded just because he was living too Christian like.

I would never say to a gay person " you will go to Hell if you keep practising sex".

All sexual immorality without Christ, faith, repentance and grace will lead to Hell.

I am not saying you have to bash sinners with Hell but what I am sensing is your belief promotes certain topics we should shy away from.

What will you do if asked by a homosexual will my lifestyle cause me to go to Hell? Will you speak the truth? How would you respond?

This isn't the 1500s where people are scared into faith. Often many laugh at the idea of Hell. People can leave the faith possibly due to people's failure to explain the concept of Hell as equivalent to God's all loving and just nature. Or never choose to believe because they prefer to live in sin and do not care about Hell. Otherwise if Heaven and Hell exist then any rational thinking person would want to go to Heaven.

 

[Anderswelt]

So morality is a shifting sand then? To you God, who is the source of morality, can change the rules any time he likes. We can't rely on that. If murder may not be murder, then all you have done is transfer the moral relativism you don't like in humans onto God.

The laws of Elohim haven't changed. Yeshua fulfilled the sacrificial law, the remainder remains intact. When the vail was torn, there was no need for sacrifices or a priest as mediator.

 

[morefaithrequired]

And then there are some Christians who take pleasure in quoting harsh scripture. Watching the non believer cringe. Kind of a power trip on behalf of God?
I dont know. People like roughsoul are sincere and have good intentions I guess. But I sense he is under the spell of radical conservative Christianity. Dualistic black and white take no prisoners thinking.
Tats just just my perception. The truth is probably greyer.
I can be dismissed as a backsliding relativist for sure. A symbol of the dilution and decline of modern Christianity. I still have a lot to learn on my faith journey.
But recently I made a choice. Conservative fundamentalist Christianity is not for me. Its too simplistic and it prides itself on intolerance and division. Justice will always have a role but if we dont make the mercy of Jesus message our main focus we are seriously deluded.

 

[Anderswelt]

And then there are some Christians who take pleasure in quoting harsh scripture. Watching the non believer cringe. Kind of a power trip on behalf of God?
I dont know. People like roughsoul are sincere and have good intentions I guess. But I sense he is under the spell of radical conservative Christianity. Dualistic black and white take no prisoners thinking.
Tats just just my perception. The truth is probably greyer.
I can be dismissed as a backsliding relativist for sure. A symbol of the dilution and decline of modern Christianity. I still have a lot to learn on my faith journey.
But recently I made a choice. Conservative fundamentalist Christianity is not for me. Its too simplistic and it prides itself on intolerance and division. Justice will always have a role but if we dont make the mercy of Jesus message our main focus we are seriously deluded.

Proverbs 27:5 - Open rebuke is better than secret love.

Hebrews 12:11 - Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby

Matthew 18:15-17 - Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 - Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables

Galatians 6:1 - Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2 Timothy 3:1-17 - This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[morefaithrequired]

Proverbs 27:5 - Open rebuke is better than secret love.

Hebrews 12:11 - Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby

Matthew 18:15-17 - Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 - Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables

Galatians 6:1 - Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2 Timothy 3:1-17 - This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

yes but what are your thoughts?

 

[morefaithrequired]

What will you do if asked by a homosexual will my lifestyle cause me to go to Hell? Will you speak the truth?

The truth is I don't know. And neither do you.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The truth is I don't know. And neither do you.

The Truth is the Bible. Gods Word. You will have to explain why it isnt.

 

[morefaithrequired]

The Truth is the Bible. Gods Word. You will have to explain why it isnt.

the literal word you mean?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

the literal word you mean?

What do you mean by that? Did you define it for me?

It is according to what you been by literal word. If you mean by the txt alone then I will say yes to a degree. Because even though the literal text is absolute truth some verses takes studying to put more meat on the truth. A deeper understanding of the truth. Same truth but deeper understanding.

Which part of the Bible isnt true or which part do you need more faith to believe?

 

[morefaithrequired]

What do you mean by that? Did you define it for me?

It is according to what you been by literal word. If you mean by the txt alone then I will say yes to a degree. Because even though the literal text is absolute truth some verses takes studying to put more meat on the truth. A deeper understanding of the truth. Same truth but deeper understanding.

Which part of the Bible isnt true or which part do you need more faith to believe?

You dont know Hell exists. You believe Hell exists. You havent been there. You trust the word of the Bible. I too trust a lot of what the Bible says.
Since there are so many interpretations it seems what we Christians believe exactly, varies greatly from person to person.
All Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. But we dont know it for sure. Therefore we need to take humble approach to asserting our beliefs. That we dont impose our beliefs as facts on other people .

 

[Roughsoul1991]

You dont know Hell exists. You believe Hell exists. You havent been there. You trust the word of the Bible. I too trust a lot of what the Bible says.
Since there are so many interpretations it seems what we Christians believe exactly, varies greatly from person to person.
All Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. But we dont know it for sure. Therefore we need to take humble approach to asserting our beliefs. That we dont impose our beliefs as facts on other people .

So I am trying to understand. Your a Christian that doesn't know if the Bible is true or that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, or if Hell exists then you might as well also throw in Heaven too. You trust parts but deny other parts on its truthfulness.

I ain't heard of a Christian with these beliefs in less your new to faith or backsliding out of faith.

If you believe the Words of Jesus Christ then you should know a Hell exists. But if you do not believe Jesus is God incarnate then why believe anything he says? Christianity is false in less you believe Jesus was who he said he was and that he was resurrected in proving everything from prophecy to come into completion as the coming Messiah.

That we dont impose our beliefs as facts on other people

Our beliefs are the best conclusion of the facts. Our worldview is the only worldview that best answers the questions of who we are, why are we here, where did we come from, what best describes reality. My beliefs are facts. The atheists or other religions will impose their beliefs on you as fact so you might as well learn how to refute their ideas.

Since there are so many interpretations it seems what we Christians believe exactly, varies greatly from person to person.

There is what we call core simple Gospel that bind all the major sects of Christianity together. The core doctrines of Christ, salvation and God. For example Hell has been since the creation of Christianity a core belief. If someone tries to teach a doctrine without Hell they are what we consider false teachers. You will see a lot of debate on here but that doesn't mean the scriptures are not true. Much debate is over small differences in understanding but most of them doesn't alter the core message. This is how the body of Christ stays United.