3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists

[UnitedWithChrist]

Oh my. The way you speak evil of other men of God is quite troubling.

Suggesting you read the work of a scholar on the subject of Calvinism is not promoting any sectarian affiliation.

You are quick to condemn and demonstrate no compassion toward others. Is that how you see Jesus? Cold, hard and vindictive?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I recommend folks study what Grace Evangelical Society teaches.

Unless they are hypergrace types, they won't like it.

Basically, you can be toking your joint, and some Grace Evangelical Society guy shows up. He asks, do you believe Jesus Christ offers eternal life? You reply, I don't know this guy, but if you say he will give me eternal life, I believe you.

Magically, you're saved. You know nothing about the cross or the resurrection. You heard one sentence, and you placed your faith in him due to this one sentence by some guy you don't even know.

You continue toking joints for the rest of your life, and beating your kids, and cheating on your wife.

That's salvation for Grace Evangelical Society types. In fact, I was told this by the pastor I talked to, when I attended a few months. One member left and was practicing blatant sexual immorality yet they said he was just losing rewards, even if he never came back.

You could be on a desert island and a bottle floats to shore. It says, Jesus gives eternal life. You believe it, even though you know nothing about Jesus. You are saved.

You don't need to know anything about the Cross and the resurrection. Just this simple one line, if you believe it, saves you. Because, faith is mere intellectual assent that Jesus gives you eternal life. There is no full-bodied concept of faith involving placing your full confidence in the man who loved you enough to die for you.

 

[notuptome]

I recommend folks study what Grace Evangelical Society teaches.

Unless they are hypergrace types, they won't like it.

Basically, you can be toking your joint, and some Grace Evangelical Society guy shows up. He asks, do you believe Jesus Christ offers eternal life? You reply, I don't know this guy, but if you say he will give me eternal life, I believe you.

Magically, you're saved. You know nothing about the cross or the resurrection. You heard one sentence, and you placed your faith in him due to this one sentence by some guy you don't even know.

You continue toking joints for the rest of your life, and beating your kids, and cheating on your wife.

That's salvation for Grace Evangelical Society types. In fact, I was told this by the pastor I talked to, when I attended a few months. One member left and was practicing blatant sexual immorality yet they said he was just losing rewards, even if he never came back.

You could be on a desert island and a bottle floats to shore. It says, Jesus gives eternal life. You believe it, even though you know nothing about Jesus. You are saved.

You don't need to know anything about the Cross and the resurrection. Just this simple one line, if you believe it, saves you. Because, faith is mere intellectual assent that Jesus gives you eternal life. There is no full-bodied concept of faith involving placing your full confidence in the man who loved you enough to die for you.

More overstatements of doctrine. We could take Calvinism and insert it into the same scenario and say that the man never hears of Jesus yet when He dies because he is elect he is saved. No faith no knowledge of scripture just election alone.

Neither case is real and neither case would be biblically correct.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

More overstatements of doctrine. We could take Calvinism and insert it into the same scenario and say that the man never hears of Jesus yet when He dies because he is elect he is saved. No faith no knowledge of scripture just election alone.

Neither case is real and neither case would be biblically correct.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

That is incorrect. Reformed theology teaches that the Father elects, the Son atones, and the Holy Spirit applies.

The application of the work of Christ to the believer follows a presentation of the Gospel.

And, yes, a man could be saved on his deathbed, but he would need to be regenerated, receiving a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone, after hearing the gospel message, which would produce faith and repentance because he has experienced the receipt of a heart of flesh, which can exercise faith and repentance.

Unlike decisional regeneration, which proposes that a stony heart can wring faith and repentance out of itself, somehow.....

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

More overstatements of doctrine. We could take Calvinism and insert it into the same scenario and say that the man never hears of Jesus yet when He dies because he is elect he is saved. No faith no knowledge of scripture just election alone.

Neither case is real and neither case would be biblically correct.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Don't backpedal away from their teachings. I know what they teach, and they don't restrict it to the hypothetical.

If some guy simply says that he has faith in Jesus who provides eternal life, and goes off to continue his sinful life and never repents, these guys teach that he is simply losing out on his temporal rewards, not eternal life.

They believe that salvation is by faith alone, and they don't believe in biblical repentance as being necessary.

The problem is that they have no concept of salvation being, in essence, union with Christ in both a legal and live-giving, vital sense.

Reformed theology has always taught that the two aspects of union with Christ are impossible to separate, but many contemporary "evangelical" Christians focus solely upon the legal aspect of union with Christ, primarily justification.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if most Christians know nothing about union with Christ..but Reformed people DO. I have been in Calvary Chapel, Baptist, and Christian and Missionary Alliance fellowships and really heard nothing meaningful until I was befriended by a Reformed person who deepened my knowledge of their theology through pointing me to decent materials. Free-willers simply lack substance in their understanding of Scripture, especially on salvation.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Without the ability and I say responsibility to choose there is no glory for God.

God loves even those who hate Him. God will forgive even those who hate Him if they will forsake their sin can cleave to Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

We do not deny man's responsibility for his sins neither do we deny man's ability to choose. But fallen man's will is bent towards sin, self, and Satan. Man in his fallen state will never choose to seek God. In fact, fallen man can not even see the Kingdom of Heaven w/o first being born again[John 3:3].

Let's look at this passage together...

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. [Romans 8:5-8]

Those who are according to the flesh(fallen man), they...

Have their minds centered upon the flesh
Their minds are set on the flesh and that is death
They are hostile towards God, at enmity(have an ill-will towards) with God
And they, being in the flesh, can not please God

Those who are according to the Spirit, they...

Have their minds centered upon the things of the Spirit
Their minds are set on the Spirit, and it is life and peace
They are no longer hostile towards God, but have been reconciled to God
They, being in the Spirit, can please God

So, the lost person is the first person, the man walking according to the flesh. It takes God to first quicken them before they will seek Him. Their wills are bent inward and they will never choose, in and of themselves, to seek, serve, and love God. Its not in them to do this. The fall has ruined the whole man, including his will.

Now, place a piece of meat and a bale of hay in front of a lion. Which will he choose? The meat. Why? Its not in his nature to choose hay, as he is a carnivore. Place a piece of meat and a bale of hay in front of a cow. Which will she choose? The hay. Why? its not in her nature to choose meat, as she is a herbivore.

“Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil."[Jeremiah 13:23]

A fallen man can just as easily seek God as a leopard can change its spots or an Ethiopian can change his skin color. Ppl don't realize the depths sin has taken us into to. We were unable to choose God apart from divine quickening. It is only after this has taken place that they can, and will, seek Him. And not before.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

That is incorrect. Reformed theology teaches that the Father elects, the Son atones, and the Holy Spirit applies.

The application of the work of Christ to the believer follows a presentation of the Gospel.

And, yes, a man could be saved on his deathbed, but he would need to be regenerated, receiving a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone, after hearing the gospel message, which would produce faith and repentance because he has experienced the receipt of a heart of flesh, which can exercise faith and repentance.

Unlike decisional regeneration, which proposes that a stony heart can wring faith and repentance out of itself, somehow.....

Salvation is a Trinitarian work, as you so wonderfully posted. The Father elected them, their sins were given to His Son who died to atone for them, and the Spirit quickens them.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

More overstatements of doctrine. We could take Calvinism and insert it into the same scenario and say that the man never hears of Jesus yet when He dies because he is elect he is saved. No faith no knowledge of scripture just election alone.

Neither case is real and neither case would be biblically correct.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Wrong. All that the Father gives the Christ will come to Him, and these He will raise on the last day[John 6:37, 44]. The elect were elected unto salvation. Election and salvation are not the same thing. They were elected unto salvation. Election took place before God said "Let there be light"[Ephesians 1:4], but salvation takes place in time.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Nothing short of just plain old baloney.

The natural man can hear and receive the gospel. The natural man cannot hear and receive anything beyond the gospel but the gospel goes out to all men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.[1 Corinthians 2:14]

Again, you are wrong. Paul disagrees with you in a mighty way. The natural man hears it, but rejects it at every turn.

Now, the question needs to be answered, Why does fallen man lack the ability to hear the gospel and accept it, and also lack the will to choose God in his fallen state? Here is the answer...in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[2 Corinthians 4:4] The lost are blinded by Satan. They have blinded eyes, minds, a sin-crusted heart. Fallen man at his core loathes God and will never seek Him.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

More of the same attacks on other believers.

"You do not act like a Christian." Post #435 directed at @UnitedWithChrist
"It is Calvinists that are the problem." Post #437
"You lack the capacity to understand. " Post #379 to FGC in the "Is Election Biblical" thread
"You are simply hopelessly befuddled. You are a mess." Post #387...yo FGC in the "Is Election Biblical" thread

You are passive aggressive. You shame others of that which you do. Please do not respond to this. I am putting you on ignore before you insult me, too.

 

[Jackson123]

I recommend folks study what Grace Evangelical Society teaches.

Unless they are hypergrace types, they won't like it.

Basically, you can be toking your joint, and some Grace Evangelical Society guy shows up. He asks, do you believe Jesus Christ offers eternal life? You reply, I don't know this guy, but if you say he will give me eternal life, I believe you.

Magically, you're saved. You know nothing about the cross or the resurrection. You heard one sentence, and you placed your faith in him due to this one sentence by some guy you don't even know.

You continue toking joints for the rest of your life, and beating your kids, and cheating on your wife.

That's salvation for Grace Evangelical Society types. In fact, I was told this by the pastor I talked to, when I attended a few months. One member left and was practicing blatant sexual immorality yet they said he was just losing rewards, even if he never came back.

You could be on a desert island and a bottle floats to shore. It says, Jesus gives eternal life. You believe it, even though you know nothing about Jesus. You are saved.

You don't need to know anything about the Cross and the resurrection. Just this simple one line, if you believe it, saves you. Because, faith is mere intellectual assent that Jesus gives you eternal life. There is no full-bodied concept of faith involving placing your full confidence in the man who loved you enough to die for you.

I my self is a sinner, but I have a friend that believe that way. He believe No matter what you do, It Will not make you lose your salvation. As Indonesian, wedding party was expensive, to impress your future wife and family. He deliberately steal money from his credit card that he know s he Will not able to pay.

I try to remind him not to, but he Replay, It Will not make him lose his salvation. And he was a sunday school teacher in his church.

 

[notuptome]

"You do not act like a Christian." Post #435 directed at @UnitedWithChrist
"It is Calvinists that are the problem." Post #437
"You lack the capacity to understand. " Post #379 to FGC in the "Is Election Biblical" thread
"You are simply hopelessly befuddled. You are a mess." Post #387...yo FGC in the "Is Election Biblical" thread

You are passive aggressive. You shame others of that which you do. Please do not respond to this. I am putting you on ignore before you insult me, too.

So you are going to come in with great dramatic flair swoon and hurl accusations as you depart. You do not want to discuss the errors of Calvinism just pass by and let all be enraptured with your elitism. If you actually have something of merit to offer please I invite you to do so.

Is arrogance a doctrine in Calvinism? It seems most are elite and arrogant toward all those they deem as non-elect.

You should enlighten me. Now did Adam choose to sin in the garden? Did Adam have a choice? If you answer this question Calvinism dies in the womb.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Whispered]

Salvation is a Trinitarian work, as you so wonderfully posted. The Father elected them, their sins were given to His Son who died to atone for them, and the Spirit quickens them.

Our Salvation is the work of God. The Trinitarian work is a teaching of Reformed theology. People should be made aware of that difference.

God is one. God is Holy Spirit and Jesus was God incarnate, you shall call his name Emmanuel which means, God with us.


The Book of Isaiah chapter 44 verse 6 Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

Wrong. All that the Father gives the Christ will come to Him, and these He will raise on the last day[John 6:37, 44]. The elect were elected unto salvation. Election and salvation are not the same thing. They were elected unto salvation. Election took place before God said "Let there be light"[Ephesians 1:4], but salvation takes place in time.

Incorrect. Salvation is immediate. I think you intended to say Sanctification occurs over the period of our lifetime. Which would be correct.
"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works that no one should boast" The Book of Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8-9

The Book of Romans chapter 6 and particularly verse 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The elect were elected unto salvation.

Since salvation is for all mankind, how could God contradict Himself by electing some *unto salvation* while neglecting others?

Indeed here is what Christ said about the impact of His crucifixion and His finished work of redemption: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32)

This corresponds to what God said in Isaiah 45:22: Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

And this also corresponds to what the Holy Spirit says in Revelation 22:17: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

As you can see Calvinism makes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit liars. And that is why it is *another gospel* -- not the true GOSPEL OF GRACE.

 

[UnderGrace]

By the way, Laurence Vance is a member of Grace Evangelical Society, which is a heretical group that claims mere intellectual assent is real faith, and is the sole cause of salvation.

The guys associated with this type of thinking include Zane Hodges and Robert Wilkin.

They seek to minimize the content of a real faith to nothing more than the knowledge that this guy, Jesus Christ, can give you eternal life. That's it. You don't need to know about his atoning sacrifice on the Cross or his resurrection. These are nice things to know, but all you really need to know is that some guy, Jesus Christ, can give you eternal life.

And, they teach that faith is mere intellectual assent, and not placing your confidence in Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Basically, they teach carnal Christianity..that it is perfectly fine to profess faith, and go on to live an unproductive Christian life for the rest of your days. They deny Lordship Salvation in the most plain terms. They do not believe that works are the fruit of a genuine faith.

This is a false teaching, and therefore you are promoting false teachings.

Why in the world would you be promoting a group that believes in the "crossless gospel"?

Here's a few articles for those who want to know:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/reviews/free-grace-theology/
https://www.gotquestions.org/free-grace.html
http://www.the-highway.com/sandeman_Haykin.html

Watch out for the swill that others try to feed you here.

It is clear from the book of James that true faith is accompanied by good works, which justify the believer in the eyes of men. They show their faith as being genuine.

Not true about Zane Hodges and Robert Wilkin.

 

[Whispered]

So you are going to come in with great dramatic flair swoon and hurl accusations as you depart. You do not want to discuss the errors of Calvinism just pass by and let all be enraptured with your elitism. If you actually have something of merit to offer please I invite you to do so.

Is arrogance a doctrine in Calvinism? It seems most are elite and arrogant toward all those they deem as non-elect.

You should enlighten me. Now did Adam choose to sin in the garden? Did Adam have a choice? If you answer this question Calvinism dies in the womb.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I would submit we have all witnessed arrogance as a trait of Calvinism. It takes a great deal of arrogance to defend one's ideal god as that which predetermines whom he will save before anything to be saved from comes to exist. And conversely, those whom he will damn for eternity because they were not to be elected unto salvation. And again, before anything did exist to be saved from.
What those who believe they are the former demonstrate is that assurance. They are the saved elect of their god. And we whom they treat as they choose to, they are certain, are the latter. The predestined eternally damned.
Why then would they need to show respect or be civil to those whom their ideal of god did not respect enough to save from the flames?

 

[Whispered]

Not true about Zane Hodges and Robert Wilkin.

I'd wonder what compels names no one has mentioned before to come into replies made by UWC?
The book mentioned earlier, The Other Side of Calvinism, is not written by Hodges or Wilkin, but by Laurence M. Vance.

 

[UnderGrace]

I'd wonder what compels names no one has mentioned before to come into replies made by UWC?
The book mentioned earlier, The Other Side of Calvinism, is not written by Hodges or Wilkin, but by Laurence M. Vance.

A sign of desperation maybe?

 

[Whispered]

"You do not act like a Christian." Post #435 directed at @UnitedWithChrist
"It is Calvinists that are the problem." Post #437
"You lack the capacity to understand. " Post #379 to FGC in the "Is Election Biblical" thread
"You are simply hopelessly befuddled. You are a mess." Post #387...yo FGC in the "Is Election Biblical" thread

You are passive aggressive. You shame others of that which you do. Please do not respond to this. I am putting you on ignore before you insult me, too.

I would wonder if you are UWC as you just arrived in this thread and ignore their deplorable behavior,but chastise those who are on the receiving end of his attitude.

I would request you please put me on your ignore list as well and I shall reciprocate. Shame on you "both".
" Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded."
The book of James chapter 4 verse 8

 

[Whispered]

A sign of desperation maybe?

Perhaps. I would not dare speculate though it is odd that people we've not discussed are brought into this thread by UWC. And to add to that, when those names are introduced UWC proceeds to speak ill of them and even spreads the worst gossip concerning their character.

There's a passage in scripture that reads, you shall know them by their fruits. I think that also means, we shall know them by how they comport themselves in times of trouble or, as in these forums, when asked to defend their beliefs.

The Book of 1st Peter chapter 3 verse 15 But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect...

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I would wonder if you are UWC as you just arrived in this thread and ignore their deplorable behavior,but chastise those who are on the receiving end of his attitude.

I would request you please put me on your ignore list as well and I shall reciprocate. Shame on you "both".
" Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded."
The book of James chapter 4 verse 8

Nope I am not. But thanks for the insult. Plus, James is writing to believers, not unbelievers.