WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

[tanakh]

i got time and coffee. please tell me friend. id love to hear what you have to say. please please?

Only God Knows how much time you have. Your required stock of coffee may need a Brazilian import licence.

People quote Bible Verses but actually use their own or others interpretations of the plain scripture to justify their positions.
I suggest you read a book that gives an objective view of all the various combinations and take it from there. I don't believe that
any one of them gives a complete answer.

All of Revelation comprises of Types, symbols and allegories there is no direct verse quotations anywhere. It relies on passages and verses from the OT. Individuals need to know the OT very well to understand it properly. I have found a book that actually gives
OT scripture references for every chapter and started a blog copying them for anyone who was interested. I intend to copy the whole
lot but at present I have only found time to cover the first five chapters. You may find the book useful its called Cosmic Codes, Hidden
Messages from the Edge of Eternity by the late Dr Chuck Missler. It contains a table of OT references in Revelation in the appendices
section at the back. The book can be bought at Amazon.

 

[Melach]

Only God Knows how much time you have. Your required stock of coffee may need a Brazilian import licence.

People quote Bible Verses but actually use their own or others interpretations of the plain scripture to justify their positions.
I suggest you read a book that gives an objective view of all the various combinations and take it from there. I don't believe that
any one of them gives a complete answer.

All of Revelation comprises of Types, symbols and allegories there is no direct verse quotations anywhere. It relies on passages and verses from the OT. Individuals need to know the OT very well to understand it properly. I have found a book that actually gives
OT scripture references for every chapter and started a blog copying them for anyone who was interested. I intend to copy the whole
lot but at present I have only found time to cover the first five chapters. You may find the book useful its called Cosmic Codes, Hidden
Messages from the Edge of Eternity by the late Dr Chuck Missler. It contains a table of OT references in Revelation in the appendices
section at the back. The book can be bought at Amazon.

i like chuck missler. may we see ur blog?

 

[Guojing]

But is the rapture pre-trib in your view my friend?

From Adstar words, he does not believe in pre tribulation rapture of the body of Christ.

He only believe in the second coming where we will go up to meet him in the air, and then immediately go back down with Christ to earth.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

From Adstar words, he does not believe in pre tribulation rapture of the body of Christ.

He only believe in the second coming where we will go up to meet him in the air, and then immediately go back down with Christ to earth.

Neither do I. I agree with the rapture the day the Lord returns to establish the kingdom. I am believe in what is called Historic Premillennialism.

 

[Guojing]

Neither do I. I agree with the rapture the day the Lord returns to establish the kingdom. I am believe in what is called Historic Premillennialism.

Yes, I understand the appeal of "enduring the Tribulation" that some Christians may have, in the testing on whether their faith is real or not.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Yes, I understand the appeal of "enduring the Tribulation" that some Christians may have, in the testing on whether their faith is real or not.

Its not the appeal of 'enduring the tribulation' but our appealing to what we believe the bible avers.

When God destroyed the earth in the flood, those 8 ppl who God saved from it, went through it, but they were kept safe via the ark.
When God throttled Egypt the Jews were safe from that wrath as not one of them was harmed.

There is not one verse properly exegeted that teaches a pre-trib rapture of the saints. It's just not there. It's inference at best.

 

[Guojing]

Its not the appeal of 'enduring the tribulation' but our appealing to what we believe the bible avers.

When God destroyed the earth in the flood, those 8 ppl who God saved from it, went through it, but they were kept safe via the ark.
When God throttled Egypt the Jews were safe from that wrath as not one of them was harmed.

There is not one verse properly exegeted that teaches a pre-trib rapture of the saints. It's just not there. It's inference at best.

That is strange, if you agree that Noah and him family was kept safe via the ark, isn't it strange not to also believe that the Body of Christ is kept safe from the wrath to come, by placing her in heaven during the Tribulation?

 

[calibob]

Yes, I understand the appeal of "enduring the Tribulation" that some Christians may have, in the testing on whether their faith is real or not.

When the 7th trumpet sounds. Maybe tonight maybe 1000 years. I think it might have been mad difficult intentionally so that we won take it for granted or postpone repentance till the last day rather stay repentant as if today is the last day. Therefore we should stay prepared. All I'm sure of is if Jesus didn't know when himself. we won't know for sure till it happens.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

That is strange, if you agree that Noah and him family was kept safe via the ark, isn't it strange not to also believe that the Body of Christ is kept safe from the wrath to come, by placing her in heaven during the Tribulation?

But that was not what He did, did he? He kept them safe as He was pouring out His wrath upon all flesh. We are not appointed to wrath, yes, but that does not mean we need to agree with this escapism doctrine.

Now, please show me one verse, or passage of verses, that explicitly and plainly teaches the rapture is pre-trib. Just one my friend, and we will examine it together.

 

[JaumeJ]

Surely you know that the Rapture is the supernatural transformation of living saints and their being caught up to Heaven by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. It has absolutely no relationship to the Great Tribulation, and must occur BEFORE the Tribulation period. [Note: While the word *rapture* is not found in our English bibles, it is derived from the Latin *rapimur* in Jerome's Vulgate, which is the translation for *caught up"]

1 THESSALONIANS 4: THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE OF THE SAINTS

CHRISTIANS ARE NOT TO LAMENT FOR THOSE WHO HAVE PASSED ON
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

THOSE SAINTS (SOULS & SPIRITS) WILL COME WITH JESUS
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [Note: sleep is only a metaphor for death]

THE LIVING SAINTS WILL NOT PRECEDE THE ONES WHO WILL BE RESURRECTED
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [Note: *prevent* means *precede* (go ahead of)]

CHRIST HIMSELF WILL COME FOR HIS SAINTS AT THE RAPTURE
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:...

BUT THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST
...and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

THEN THE LIVING SAINTS WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:...

ALL THE SAINTS WILL BE WITH THE LORD ETERNALLY IN THE NEW JERUSALEM
...and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

THE DOCTRINE OF THE RAPTURE IS FOR THE COMFORT OF CHRISTIANS
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Christ does NOT come to the earth, but remains *in the air* (the atmospheric heaven). And this entire event is SUPERNATURAL and in the twinkling of an eye (nanoseconds).

It is possible you do onotunderstand how a cult has grown around a word, rapture, or, The rapture.

As for being taken up to God, this is spoken of in plain words understood by most throughout the Word....
What next, shall we apply a term to the faith of Jesus other than the faith of Abraham? Perhaps Southern Baptisst, Orthodox Jew, etc?
Surely you understaand.

 

[Guojing]

But that was not what He did, did he? He kept them safe as He was pouring out His wrath upon all flesh. We are not appointed to wrath, yes, but that does not mean we need to agree with this escapism doctrine.

Now, please show me one verse, or passage of verses, that explicitly and plainly teaches the rapture is pre-trib. Just one my friend, and we will examine it together.

Nehemiah6 have already provided the scripture in 1 Thess so there is no need for me to repeat what he wrote. I would add 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 to the mix but the idea is the same. If you don't want to accept those scripture, that is fine too.

Furthermore, you have already provided the examples in the OT

Abraham was safe in the mountain while Sodom was being destroyed with fire and brimstone.
Noah and his family was safe in the ark while the earth was flooded.
The Jews were protected from all the 10 plagues that struck Egypt.

You believe in all these precedents, yet you find it hard to believe that the Body of Christ would be protected in heaven while the Tribulation goes on on Earth.

That is what I find strange about your position. I am sure when we are in heaven enjoying the wedding supper of the Lamb, we will have a front seat view of the Tribulation on Earth, just as Abraham had in the first example.

After that supper, we will return with our husband dressed in fine linen, as he descend upon the Earth to rescue the Jews (Revelations 19:14)

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Nehemiah6 have already provided the scripture in 1 Thess so there is no need for me to repeat what he wrote. I would add 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 to the mix but the idea is the same. If you don't want to accept those scripture, that is fine too.

Furthermore, you have already provided the examples in the OT

Abraham was safe in the mountain while Sodom was being destroyed with fire and brimstone.
Noah and his family was safe in the ark while the earth was flooded.
The Jews were protected from all the 10 plagues that struck Egypt.

You believe in all these precedents, yet you find it hard to believe that the Body of Christ would be protected in heaven while the Tribulation goes on on Earth.

That is what I find strange about your position. I am sure when we are in heaven enjoying the wedding supper of the Lamb, we will have a front seat view of the Tribulation on Earth, just as Abraham had in the first example.

After that supper, we will return with our husband dressed in fine linen, as he descend upon the Earth to rescue the Jews (Revelations 19:14)

Abraham, Lot, his daughters and sons-in-law were safe, so was Noah and the 7 others, and the Jews were protected. Here's the problem. They weren't raptured up into the cloud, either. They remained safe on earth as God was pouring out His wrath.

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.[1 Thessalonians 4:13-18]

Nowhere in the above passage does it give a timing of the second advent of the Christ. That is why all four eschatological camps teach it proves their stance to be the correct one. Nowhere does it say this is before the tribulation, in the midst of the tribulation(mid-trib view), or immediately after the tribulation. For you to place it before the tribulation is inference at best.

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.[1 Corinthians 15:51-52] Again, no mentioning of the timing this will occur. To put it before the tribulation starts is to do so via inference.

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”[Revelation 4:1] This one has caused me to scratch my head many times. Those who hold to the pre-trib view say that when John was caught up, so was the church. Nowhere in this verse does it even remotely say that, let alone, teach it. John was caught up to the third heaven, the church wasn't. Talk about using inference here to prove a pre-trib rapture.

This pre-trib rapture was not systematically taught until the 1830's. John Nelson Darby heard a teenage girl say she had a dream that the Christ retuned twice and he started reading and made a systematic theology of it. It was taught by a couple of guys earlier, several centuries earlier iirc, but it was never widely accepted and taught until Darby started it.

But in none of those passages do they explicitly teach a pre-trib rapture. It is via inference at best. And one should never believe what they believe via inferences.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Are you pre-trib? If so, please point me to one passage that explicitly states this rapture is prior to the tribulation.

Greetings Sackcloth,

The understanding of the gathering of the church/bride taking place prior to the tribulation period, i.e. the time of God's wrath, is deduced by the fact that scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer and thereby satisfying it completely. This means that the church must be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates the time of God's wrath.

However, is you are looking for one specific scripture, the following would cover it:

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10

The hour of trial is referring to the time of God's wrath, which is going to come upon the whole world of which Jesus says that He will keep believers out of. There's no way that the Lord would first put His bride through His wrath and then gather her afterwards.

According to Jesus and Daniel (Matt.24:15-22, Dan.12:1), That time of wrath is going the worse tribulation that the world will ever see, unequaled from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. Since God does not punish the righteous with the wicked, then the church/bride will be gathered prior to that time.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Greetings Sackcloth,

The understanding of the gathering of the church/bride taking place prior to the tribulation period, i.e. the time of God's wrath, is deduced by the fact that scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer and thereby satisfying it completely. This means that the church must be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates the time of God's wrath.

However, is you are looking for one specific scripture, the following would cover it:

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10

The hour of trial is referring to the time of God's wrath, which is going to come upon the whole world of which Jesus says that He will keep believers out of. There's no way that the Lord would first put His bride through His wrath and then gather her afterwards.

According to Jesus and Daniel (Matt.24:15-22, Dan.12:1), That time of wrath is going the worse tribulation that the world will ever see, unequaled from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. Since God does not punish the righteous with the wicked, then the church/bride will be gathered prior to that time.

Thank you for your well reasoned post, my friend. I agree that we are not appointed to wrath, and I alluded to that in an earlier post, but did not quote the chapter and verse. Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.[Revelation 3:10 NASB] This was written to the church at Philadelphia. So it is written to them that when this persecution comes He will protect them, the Philadelphia church from that persecution. It seems this hour of testing was to come shortly upon them, not millennia later. And no, I am NOT a Preterist, either. I do not believe every prophecy was been fulfilled yet. I hold to a future restoration of Israel and that the Christ will establish His kingdom here for 1,000 years.

But in all those passages those who believe in the pre-trib rapture, not one verse advocates it.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Greetings Sackcloth,

The understanding of the gathering of the church/bride taking place prior to the tribulation period, i.e. the time of God's wrath, is deduced by the fact that scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer and thereby satisfying it completely. This means that the church must be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates the time of God's wrath.

However, is you are looking for one specific scripture, the following would cover it:

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10

The hour of trial is referring to the time of God's wrath, which is going to come upon the whole world of which Jesus says that He will keep believers out of. There's no way that the Lord would first put His bride through His wrath and then gather her afterwards.

According to Jesus and Daniel (Matt.24:15-22, Dan.12:1), That time of wrath is going the worse tribulation that the world will ever see, unequaled from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. Since God does not punish the righteous with the wicked, then the church/bride will be gathered prior to that time.

Not to hijack the thread, but I want to ask you this. During the tribulation are any ppl saved? Around here they teach that, and that by sacrificing animals, they can be saved. I find that utter nonsense. No one was saved by those animal sacrifices, even back to when Abel did one. All they did was stay God's wrath from being poured out on them, but it did not save them.

But I do want, and look forward, to your response.

 

[calibob]

Greetings Sackcloth,

The understanding of the gathering of the church/bride taking place prior to the tribulation period, i.e. the time of God's wrath, is deduced by the fact that scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer and thereby satisfying it completely. This means that the church must be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates the time of God's wrath.

However, is you are looking for one specific scripture, the following would cover it:

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10

The hour of trial is referring to the time of God's wrath, which is going to come upon the whole world of which Jesus says that He will keep believers out of. There's no way that the Lord would first put His bride through His wrath and then gather her afterwards.

According to Jesus and Daniel (Matt.24:15-22, Dan.12:1), That time of wrath is going the worse tribulation that the world will ever see, unequaled from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. Since God does not punish the righteous with the wicked, then the church/bride will be gathered prior to that time.

Well what if the day of God wrath is when returns with the angels and saints to judge the nations of the world, The Antichrist and the Beast come first. People that refuse the mark and refuse to obey, kneel or bow to either the Beast or the Antichrist will be taken with the newly resected at the 7th trumpet. Possibly Global Thermo Nuclear war.

Their children will be dashed to pieces before their eyes. Their faces will the desert will be turned to glass the vineyards will be destroyed. The cities will be abandoned and will be left for the owls, ostrich's and jackals. That's before the Lord returns. Plus those kinds of conflict and nuclear holocausts will make a vaporization theory logical for those who remain to fight and be slaughtered in the final battle. Those who stand and fight will perish. The remnant who flee will be spared when the full measure of the wrath of the Lord sweeps across the world. The wheat will be harvested and the chaff will ne burned. Thats how I see it I could be wrong. It dosn't matter, I'm still saved.

 

[Guojing]

Abraham, Lot, his daughters and sons-in-law were safe, so was Noah and the 7 others, and the Jews were protected. Here's the problem. They weren't raptured up into the cloud, either. They remained safe on earth as God was pouring out His wrath.

I think you are trying to split hair here. We have the blood of Christ, which they do not have, so its not that surprising that our "safety" will be much "safer" than them.

But even if you don't accept it, that is fine. So long as you agree that the Body of Christ will be safe from the Tribulation, I can accept that both of us are ultimately arguing about the same end.

 

[calibob]

What if the United state is the New Babylon? It has embraced faith in every false god, and religion on the planet. Greed, dealing with sworn enemies of the Gospel of Christ (OPEC)? Not to mention sexual perversion (the Gay agenda) and child sacrifice(abortion).

North Korea has Hydrogen warhead equipped ICB Missiles' now! A couple of those in the Yellowstone Valley Caldera would make a dandy lake of fire... The boils and ulcers predicted could easily be caused by radiation exposure and the smoke from Nuclear explosion, combined with the volcanic ash has never been seen before. It could block out the sun for a while. Krakatoa did.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I think you are trying to split hair here. We have the blood of Christ, which they do not have, so its not that surprising that our "safety" will be much "safer" than them.

But even if you don't accept it, that is fine. So long as you agree that the Body of Christ will be safe from the Tribulation, I can accept that both of us are ultimately arguing about the same end.

My Brother, I am not splitting hairs here. I am looking for biblical evidence of this pre-trib rapture, and I find it sorely lacking. If a DA brought this before a grand jury they'd throw it out due to lack of evidence. This was not widely taught until the early-to-mid-1830's, and I find that rather troubling. A systematic theology that was created then that wasn't widespread taught until then.

I've asked you at least twice to provide evidence of a pre-trib rapture found in 1 Cor. 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Revelation 4:1 and you have failed to do so. Please show me from those passages the rapture happens PRIOR to the tribulation. If you can do that, I will gladly accept it.

 

[Guojing]

My Brother, I am not splitting hairs here. I am looking for biblical evidence of this pre-trib rapture, and I find it sorely lacking. If a DA brought this before a grand jury they'd throw it out due to lack of evidence. This was not widely taught unto the early-to-mid-1830's, and I find that rather troubling. A systematic theology that was created then that wasn't widespread taught until then.

I've asked you at least twice to provide evidence of a pre-trib rapture found in 1 Cor. 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Revelation 4:1 and you have failed to do so. Please show me from those passages the rapture happened PRIOR to the tribulation. If you can do that, I will gladly accept it.

I am not trying to convince you. If you don't want to believe that we will be in heaven during the Tribulation, no scripture will able to prove that to you.

But as you said, you do believe the Body of Christ will be safe during the Tribulation. That is good enough for me.