Two things God wants for you.
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try Isaiah 6:9 and Mark 4:12.
this is only half a chapter after Christ chose the 12. and He doesn't say they are blinded ((at that very time!)) in order not to enjoy an earthly kingdom, but in order that they do not turn and be forgiven. He's not there to set up an earthly kingdom.
if you think Jesus' plan was to come and set up an earthly kingdom, but His intentions were regrettably stymied, then i'm afraid i don't see any support for that in scripture at all. the Bible pretty clearly paints a picture very much the opposite of that: Jesus Christ was rejected as king long before the incarnation, and for a thousand years His prophets had been predicting that He would come, be rejected, suffer and rise. no individual's ignorance of that changes the facts.
this is only half a chapter after Christ chose the 12. and He doesn't say they are blinded ((at that very time!)) in order not to enjoy an earthly kingdom, but in order that they do not turn and be forgiven. He's not there to set up an earthly kingdom.
if you think Jesus' plan was to come and set up an earthly kingdom, but His intentions were regrettably stymied, then i'm afraid i don't see any support for that in scripture at all. the Bible pretty clearly paints a picture very much the opposite of that: Jesus Christ was rejected as king long before the incarnation, and for a thousand years His prophets had been predicting that He would come, be rejected, suffer and rise. no individual's ignorance of that changes the facts.
Hello again Kelby, since the blood of bulls and goats saved* no one in OT times, 1. what was the purpose of the sacrifices and 2. what is it then that actually does atone for their sins (and satisfies the wrath of the Father against them)?
*(my question about OT saints that you replied to above did not concern Christian water baptism for obvious reasons).
Thanks
~Deut
*(my question about OT saints that you replied to above did not concern Christian water baptism for obvious reasons).
Thanks
~Deut
Much of the OT still seems a mystery to me and usually I don't try too hard to answer about the significance of most OT topics...but God has started to open my eyes and understanding to SOME things, so I'll do my best to answer your questions using what he's shown me so far. Please bear in mind that I'm not claiming these to be fully comprehensive answers...just "through a glass, darkly".
In answer to your first question, I think he gave the commandments regarding sacrifices for at least 3 reasons:
1. To see (find out) if they would HEAR his voice. A person hasn't truly heard the message until they've done the action (because part of the message is contained in the doing). This relates to the 1st commandment in so many ways.
2. To show them the pattern of what the true sacrifice MUST accomplish. This is not a single-step, quick fix slaying; but rather a very detailed, very deliberate set of rules which must all be satisfied or else the sacrifice will not be accepted.
3. To teach them that redemption is NOT FREE...the cost of sin (and price of redemption) is HIGH. God was showing them that although they will be receiving the benefits of the sacrifice freely, the one MAKING the sacrifice (the one who IS the sacrifice) will be paying a great price. This is not only regarding the Messiah. Don't overlook what those OT animals were giving up. And don't underestimate the cost of what "come, take up the cross and follow me" really means. Matthew 16:24, Mark 8:34, Mark 10:21, Luke 9:23
In answer to your second question about what atoned for the sins of the OT people:
There is only one sacrifice that truly atones for sin...and that is Jesus (because he is the one true sacrifice for sin, forever... Hebrews 10:12, Heb 7:27, Heb 9:26, etc). However, the question still remains (even if not directly spoken) of "How does one attach him-or-herself to this sacrifice in the OT? because obviously some receive and walk in the benefit of the sacrifice... and some do not."
I've been talking about how it is done in the NEW testament, but you're asking about the OLD testament. I think it is worth finding out and discussing, but I personally don't have a clear enough understanding (nor the time to write it here) at this time. I do however know that it pre-dates the sacrifices, pre-dates the law, and pre-dates the Abrahamic covenant of circumcision. It's got something to do with promise, faith, and the heart of man (what a particular man truly wants good/bad regardless of his level of knowledge at the time).
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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There were two things going on at circumcision:
1. the physical removal of a foreskin
2. the willing submission to God's bidding
In baptism for remission of sins there are also 2 things going on:
1. a person is being submerged in water
2. the willing submission to God's bidding
It's not the physical action that makes it work, (otherwise a person's sins would go away whenever a friend pushed them into the pool). It is the willing submission to God's bidding that gives it power...but the physical has to be there, too, or else the willing-submission-to-God's-bidding is absent.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
1. the physical removal of a foreskin
2. the willing submission to God's bidding
In baptism for remission of sins there are also 2 things going on:
1. a person is being submerged in water
2. the willing submission to God's bidding
It's not the physical action that makes it work, (otherwise a person's sins would go away whenever a friend pushed them into the pool). It is the willing submission to God's bidding that gives it power...but the physical has to be there, too, or else the willing-submission-to-God's-bidding is absent.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Hi again Kelby, I think a good place to begin looking for the answer to that question may be here: Romans 3:25-26.
~Deut
~Deut
Kelby is not looking for biblical answers. He is simply promoting his false doctrine of baptismal regeneration. And no matter how many Scriptures you show him that refute his doctrine, he remains adamant in his beliefs. That is usually the case with all who hold to false teachings. They love the lie more than the truth.
There is a significant group of Christians who either believe in:
What we differ is that you don't think 2 is the same as 1.
- the necessity of water baptism to get saved, or
- the necessity immediately after you are saved, otherwise you may not be saved since you are disobeying a direct commandment from the risen Lord, which to me amounts to pretty much the same as the first belief.
What we differ is that you don't think 2 is the same as 1.
It was ultimately faith that saved in both the OT and NT, faith in obeying what God command you to do at each time period.
It began in Genesis 4:7, where God told Cain he would have been accepted had he "done the right thing", which means bringing the correct sacrifice.
So in the OT, the Jews were saved by faith in what God revealed to them.
And what did God reveal to them during that time? "Keep the Law of Moses, circumcise your male kids, and offer an animal sacrifice every time you sin."
As long as they do that, God considers that as "putting their faith in him" and he will see them as righteous before him, as what the prophet Balaam found out in Numbers 23:18-21.
But now, in the NT, God is telling us a different way to come to him, that is to cease from our works and trust in Jesus's death burial and resurrection.
We obey that requirement and God will similarly impute our faith as righteousness.
It began in Genesis 4:7, where God told Cain he would have been accepted had he "done the right thing", which means bringing the correct sacrifice.
So in the OT, the Jews were saved by faith in what God revealed to them.
And what did God reveal to them during that time? "Keep the Law of Moses, circumcise your male kids, and offer an animal sacrifice every time you sin."
As long as they do that, God considers that as "putting their faith in him" and he will see them as righteous before him, as what the prophet Balaam found out in Numbers 23:18-21.
But now, in the NT, God is telling us a different way to come to him, that is to cease from our works and trust in Jesus's death burial and resurrection.
We obey that requirement and God will similarly impute our faith as righteousness.
We received the Holy Ghost after God ascended. Jesus said that he would send the Holy Ghost and he would be in us and would reveal all things whatsoever Jesus taught. When we are baptized, which is a commandment that we should do, we already have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but we will receive the "gift" of the Holy Spirit which is revelation.
Those that God gave to his Son to die for are looked upon by God as holy and without blame as far as eternal salvation is concerned, but the born again child of God commits sins now and then as he lives his life here until he dies a natural death. Paul explains this by his own example in the Galatians letter.