Two things God wants for you.
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Mark 16:16, He that "believeth" and is baptized shall be "saved" (delivered, but not eternally because they are already eternally secure). The natural man (1 Cor 2:14) cannot believe in the things of the Spirit until he has been born again. These spoken about in Mark 16:16 would have to be already born again of the Holy Spirit. Those in Acts 2:38 were also those who were already born again of the Spirit. The natural man's stony heart can not be pricked (verse 37) to feel guilty of breaking a spiritual law. The scriptures will never harmonize unless you first understand the difference in eternal deliverance and timely deliverance.
Indeed, without the shedding of blood there is no remission. Baptism would be of no value without Jesus shedding his blood. The cross (+burial and resurrection) is what JESUS needed to do to make it active. Being baptized is what WE need to do if we want to be joined to that activity and receive the benefits of it... as Romans 6:3-5 is saying:
Romans 6:3-5 KJV
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
If we refuse to be planted in the likeness of his death, we also give up the right to be in the likeness of his resurrection. That's why the enemy tries so hard to turn people away from baptism. If people understand that being baptized correctly gives us the right to be in the likeness of his (Jesus') resurrection, more people would make it into the kingdom of God.
So Satan suggests it is something man-made. He suggests it serves some less important purpose. He suggests it is not for remission of sins (which the bible says it is), etc, etc.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Romans 6:3-5 KJV
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
If we refuse to be planted in the likeness of his death, we also give up the right to be in the likeness of his resurrection. That's why the enemy tries so hard to turn people away from baptism. If people understand that being baptized correctly gives us the right to be in the likeness of his (Jesus') resurrection, more people would make it into the kingdom of God.
So Satan suggests it is something man-made. He suggests it serves some less important purpose. He suggests it is not for remission of sins (which the bible says it is), etc, etc.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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I put "washing away" in parenthesis as a reminder of what remission means. I also use parenthesis to designate an offshoot from the main point of a sentence, or to clarify a specific point within the sentence.
As for clarifying what I mean by "washing away" I mean that we go down into the water with our sins...and we come up without them. Much like Jesus went down into death with the sins of the world on him...and came up out of death without those sins.
As for how that works...Beats me. I just know that God established baptism for that purpose, and we are to submit to it if we'd like to be in the likeness of his resurrection.
I hope that is a little clearer...even if at this time you may believe differently.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
As for clarifying what I mean by "washing away" I mean that we go down into the water with our sins...and we come up without them. Much like Jesus went down into death with the sins of the world on him...and came up out of death without those sins.
As for how that works...Beats me. I just know that God established baptism for that purpose, and we are to submit to it if we'd like to be in the likeness of his resurrection.
I hope that is a little clearer...even if at this time you may believe differently.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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Before we go too much further discussing baptism (I really appreciate the comments I've read so far...up to #18 ) I want to point out that baptism is only 1 of TWO things God wants us to have.
So at some point we'll probably move towards talking about what it means to actually receive the Holy Ghost.. assuming you feel the Holy Ghost is important enough that we should seek to know the truth about it and not just rely on what others have told us, just in case they are blind leaders of the blind.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
So at some point we'll probably move towards talking about what it means to actually receive the Holy Ghost.. assuming you feel the Holy Ghost is important enough that we should seek to know the truth about it and not just rely on what others have told us, just in case they are blind leaders of the blind.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I like your post with only a few comments.
It seems important to point out that Jerusalem and Zion and other things mentioned in the old testament may be referring to the SPIRITUAL items rather than the physical. For example, I don't think God meant that his Mount Zion would become taller than Mount Everest before these things could be fulfilled. I'm remembering that the scribes and Pharisees could quote the prophecies foretelling Jesus the messiah, but they were looking too much fleshly and failed to recognize when Jesus was fulfilling those same prophecies right in front of them.
The Jews indeed WERE saved before spreading that blessing to the Gentiles. And indeed, once they'd received it, those from all nations and tongues began to be drawn towards this spiritual mountain of the Lord. One only needs to read Acts chapter 2 to see this begin to happen. And truly the NT salvation of the Lord was given to the Jews first (the original disciples of Jesus) and these Jewish disciples were sent out into all the world as kings and priests to share this gospel to the Gentiles also.
This last paragraph is a change of pace, but although I agree in the necessity of baptism, I don't see how your earlier paragraph's showed a necessity for water baptism to be brought in at that time. Nonetheless....
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
It seems important to point out that Jerusalem and Zion and other things mentioned in the old testament may be referring to the SPIRITUAL items rather than the physical. For example, I don't think God meant that his Mount Zion would become taller than Mount Everest before these things could be fulfilled. I'm remembering that the scribes and Pharisees could quote the prophecies foretelling Jesus the messiah, but they were looking too much fleshly and failed to recognize when Jesus was fulfilling those same prophecies right in front of them.
The Jews indeed WERE saved before spreading that blessing to the Gentiles. And indeed, once they'd received it, those from all nations and tongues began to be drawn towards this spiritual mountain of the Lord. One only needs to read Acts chapter 2 to see this begin to happen. And truly the NT salvation of the Lord was given to the Jews first (the original disciples of Jesus) and these Jewish disciples were sent out into all the world as kings and priests to share this gospel to the Gentiles also.
This last paragraph is a change of pace, but although I agree in the necessity of baptism, I don't see how your earlier paragraph's showed a necessity for water baptism to be brought in at that time. Nonetheless....
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Here are a few challenge questions perhaps to cause you to question the validity of some of the doctrines you currently believe:
1. Did not Jesus die for ALL? And if their sins were washed as white as snow simply by his death on the cross, what need is there for belief or repentance OR baptism?
I contest that belief, repentance and baptism are the avenues by which we gain access to what he did on the cross. Without them, we remain separated from those things he did for us.
2. Do you really believe that Peter would have been eternally OK if he remained steadfast in his refusal to allow Jesus to wash his feet?
Remember, Jesus said regarding this action "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me". And if it was so important that even Peter would be cut off from Jesus if he didn't submit to it, how do you now refer to these things as simply "helping us to remember" instead of seeking out WHY they were so important?
John 13:8 KJV
Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
1. Did not Jesus die for ALL? And if their sins were washed as white as snow simply by his death on the cross, what need is there for belief or repentance OR baptism?
I contest that belief, repentance and baptism are the avenues by which we gain access to what he did on the cross. Without them, we remain separated from those things he did for us.
2. Do you really believe that Peter would have been eternally OK if he remained steadfast in his refusal to allow Jesus to wash his feet?
Remember, Jesus said regarding this action "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me". And if it was so important that even Peter would be cut off from Jesus if he didn't submit to it, how do you now refer to these things as simply "helping us to remember" instead of seeking out WHY they were so important?
John 13:8 KJV
Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Hi JamOn,
Circumcision is the removal of excess skin around the end of a male's sexual organ. If you're wanting more detail than that, I would refer you to a Google or Wikipedia search. As for the details of how, when, who, etc...I'd refer you to reading the first several books of the Old Testament.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Circumcision is the removal of excess skin around the end of a male's sexual organ. If you're wanting more detail than that, I would refer you to a Google or Wikipedia search. As for the details of how, when, who, etc...I'd refer you to reading the first several books of the Old Testament.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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Hello again Kelby, since the blood of bulls and goats saved* no one in OT times, 1. what was the purpose of the sacrifices and 2. what is it then that actually does atone for their sins (and satisfies the wrath of the Father against them)?
*(my question about OT saints that you replied to above did not concern Christian water baptism for obvious reasons).
Thanks
~Deut
*(my question about OT saints that you replied to above did not concern Christian water baptism for obvious reasons).
Thanks
~Deut
sure thing I’ve checked out what the OT says the reason for circumcising and appears to be this.
here’s what I’ve read
Gen 17
12Generation after generation, every male must be circumcised when he is eight days old, including those born in your household and those purchased from a foreigner—even those who are not your offspring. 13Whether they are born in your household or purchased, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh will be an everlasting covenant.
14But if any male is not circumcised, he will be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”
you mentioned this below in one of your post maybe I am misreading what your saying as it was the submission that brought them into covenant or maybe I’m misreading that after eight days the circumcised male child was brought into the covenant by the circumcise.
.
.
Also, it wasn't the physical removal of a piece of flesh (circumcision) that suddently made them worthy... It was submission to that God-established act (by faith) that brought them into the covenant.
here’s what I’ve read
Gen 17
12Generation after generation, every male must be circumcised when he is eight days old, including those born in your household and those purchased from a foreigner—even those who are not your offspring. 13Whether they are born in your household or purchased, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh will be an everlasting covenant.
14But if any male is not circumcised, he will be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”
you mentioned this below in one of your post maybe I am misreading what your saying as it was the submission that brought them into covenant or maybe I’m misreading that after eight days the circumcised male child was brought into the covenant by the circumcise.
.
.
Also, it wasn't the physical removal of a piece of flesh (circumcision) that suddently made them worthy... It was submission to that God-established act (by faith) that brought them into the covenant.
I like your post with only a few comments.
It seems important to point out that Jerusalem and Zion and other things mentioned in the old testament may be referring to the SPIRITUAL items rather than the physical. For example, I don't think God meant that his Mount Zion would become taller than Mount Everest before these things could be fulfilled. I'm remembering that the scribes and Pharisees could quote the prophecies foretelling Jesus the messiah, but they were looking too much fleshly and failed to recognize when Jesus was fulfilling those same prophecies right in front of them.
The Jews indeed WERE saved before spreading that blessing to the Gentiles. And indeed, once they'd received it, those from all nations and tongues began to be drawn towards this spiritual mountain of the Lord. One only needs to read Acts chapter 2 to see this begin to happen. And truly the NT salvation of the Lord was given to the Jews first (the original disciples of Jesus) and these Jewish disciples were sent out into all the world as kings and priests to share this gospel to the Gentiles also.
This last paragraph is a change of pace, but although I agree in the necessity of baptism, I don't see how your earlier paragraph's showed a necessity for water baptism to be brought in at that time. Nonetheless....
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
It seems important to point out that Jerusalem and Zion and other things mentioned in the old testament may be referring to the SPIRITUAL items rather than the physical. For example, I don't think God meant that his Mount Zion would become taller than Mount Everest before these things could be fulfilled. I'm remembering that the scribes and Pharisees could quote the prophecies foretelling Jesus the messiah, but they were looking too much fleshly and failed to recognize when Jesus was fulfilling those same prophecies right in front of them.
The Jews indeed WERE saved before spreading that blessing to the Gentiles. And indeed, once they'd received it, those from all nations and tongues began to be drawn towards this spiritual mountain of the Lord. One only needs to read Acts chapter 2 to see this begin to happen. And truly the NT salvation of the Lord was given to the Jews first (the original disciples of Jesus) and these Jewish disciples were sent out into all the world as kings and priests to share this gospel to the Gentiles also.
This last paragraph is a change of pace, but although I agree in the necessity of baptism, I don't see how your earlier paragraph's showed a necessity for water baptism to be brought in at that time. Nonetheless....
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
It could have happened way earlier, before we were born, if the events in acts 7 turned out differently.
The sad thing was, the Jewish leaders at the Sanhedrin rejected their king there and then. We gentiles benefited from their rejection though as Paul states in romans 11:11
First, let me ask you a question. In the church you attend, do they wash each others feet in communion? They do in the church that I attend. Your number one question; No Jesus did not die for all mankind. John 6:38 makes that plainly clear that Jesus died only for those that God gave him, and it was not all mankind. because Jesus said that he would not lose any that he died for, but raise them all up at the last day. The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, cannot discern the things of the Spirit until he has been regenerated (Eph 2), therefore, he will not repent of breaking a spiritual law that he thinks is foolishness. If he ever hears the word preached about spiritual things, he will not understand them. Only God's sheep (those that have been born again) can hear and understand the preached word. Every commandment God gives us is given as instructions for born again children of God telling them how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. There are scriptures in the bible telling born again children how they were saved, but I don't find a commandment of God telling them to get saved eternally. If you have one, let me know book, chapter and verse, and I will try to explain it to you.
neither failure nor accident. everyone who understood the prophets knew it would be exactly thus.Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.
(Acts 1:16-17)
Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
(Acts 2:23-24)
Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
(Acts 3:17-18)
You are quoting the wrong verses since Peter was still appealing to the Jews to accept their Messiah. The offer of the kingdom was still valid in Acts 3.
A more suitable passage would be Romans 9.
But even so, I would rather not think like a Calvinist here. The leaders had a legitimate choice to make in Acts 7, just like Adam and Eve had in the Garden.
Of course, once they made that choice, we can look back and say God knew they would have made that choice from the beginning of time. It does not mean he caused that choice though.
A more suitable passage would be Romans 9.
But even so, I would rather not think like a Calvinist here. The leaders had a legitimate choice to make in Acts 7, just like Adam and Eve had in the Garden.
Of course, once they made that choice, we can look back and say God knew they would have made that choice from the beginning of time. It does not mean he caused that choice though.
i don't think you understand what these verses are saying or why i cited them.
you said "it could have happened" if only .. . . .
i said:
neither failure nor accident. everyone who understood the prophets knew it would be exactly thus.
and i showed from the beginning of Acts the apostles understood - the scripture makes clear - that there was no accident. there was no failure. there was God's purpose, having been long ago foretold, being fulfilled.
you said "it could have happened" if only .. . . .
i said:
neither failure nor accident. everyone who understood the prophets knew it would be exactly thus.
and i showed from the beginning of Acts the apostles understood - the scripture makes clear - that there was no accident. there was no failure. there was God's purpose, having been long ago foretold, being fulfilled.
The Son of Man must suffer many things,
and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes,
and be killed, and be raised the third day!
and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes,
and be killed, and be raised the third day!
(Luke 9:22)
You have a habit of replying to my discussion with another, without even knowing what the discussion topic was about.
The verses you refer to in Acts talks about the Crucifixion of Christ.
I am talking about Acts 7, where the Jewish nation, represented by the Sanhedrin, rejected Jesus as their promised Messiah and King for the final time, thus God caused all Israel to be blinded for a temporary time, which is still in force today.
The verses you refer to in Acts talks about the Crucifixion of Christ.
I am talking about Acts 7, where the Jewish nation, represented by the Sanhedrin, rejected Jesus as their promised Messiah and King for the final time, thus God caused all Israel to be blinded for a temporary time, which is still in force today.
i don't think you understand what these verses are saying, how they are related to the rejection of God as their king, or why i cited them.
you said "it could have happened" if only .. . . .
i said:
neither failure nor accident. everyone who understood the prophets knew it would be exactly thus.
and i showed from the beginning of Acts the apostles understood - the scripture makes clear - that there was no accident. there was no failure. there was God's purpose, having been long ago foretold, being fulfilled.
they have rejected Me from being king over them.
(1 Samuel 8:7)
The Son of Man must suffer many things,
and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes,
and be killed, and be raised the third day!
(Luke 9:22)
by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God
(Acts 2:23)