WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

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Sep 14, 2019
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The ONLY shaky thing you did was base your entire deal on a trumpet.

Sidestep the pretrib verses (that are vividly depicted) and pooof! We have the trumpet rapture!

Postrib talking points are "trumpet" and "day of the Lord"

But again,postribbers ,to my knowledge,never introduce the bride,wedding,groom.
And it is entertaining watching them "interpret" the ten virgin parable.( a vivid picture of the rapture.)
I don't have a problem for both those who believe in a pretrib rapture and those who believe in a posttrib rapture being correct. if you believe your will be raptured before the great tribulation then that is what happens for that group of believers and if you believe that you will be raptured after the tribulation then that is what will happen for that group of believers. Faith is important in what happens. I might add that I believe many are being raptured right now as this video shows

http://mobilelaz.com/judgmentday/thedayofthelord.mp4
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
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You also have to understand that there are phases to the first resurrection:

* Jesus the first fruits of the first resurrection

* The church at the Lord's appearing (John 14:1-3, I Thess.4:13-18, I Cor.15:51-53)

* The male child/144,000 (caught up)

* The two witnesses (Rev.11:11)

* The great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4-6)

The above all belong to the first resurrection and that can't possible take place at the same time.
Oh, but it does.
Jesus arrives as lord of Lords and king of Kings to begin the Millennium, that the 1st resurrection takes place, and all those from your list are changed to be forever with the Lord, and the 2nd death has no power over them, I am with you all the way. Because

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Don't be sad about your loved ones who have died, like the pagans are
1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Because we know Jesus rose and so we know also our loved ones are now in heaven
1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
They (their spiritual soul and body) are not being kept in a hole in the ground (though their carcass is) waiting to be resurrected at the end. The living don't hold up the process
1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first
When Jesus does return, the Spiritually dead, those who have the mark of the beast, experience a flesh death themselves and are resurrected
1Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Which leaves all those who didn't take the mark, and they are transformed, never will taste death neither in the flesh body or the spiritual one.
1Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Those who DID NOT take the mark of the beast will be transformed, never tasting death, into their spiritual bodies
1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Jesus descending at the last, or 7th trump, causes all those with the mark of the beast to die, they are immediately raised into their incorruptible body, and we are then transformed into our incorruptible spiritual body. The difference between us and them is we are also now immortal, they still have to look forward to the 2nd death, which has no power on us.
1Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
BECAUSE THERE WILL NEVER BE FLESH BODIES AGAIN FROM THAT POINT ON. GOOD BAD UGLY, ALL are put IN INCORRIPTUBLE SPIRITUAL BODIES FOR THE MILLENNIUM
1Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
And when those who have overcome, have not taken the mark, and are TRANSFORMED into their spiritual body, then "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY
1Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself that where I am, there ye may be also.

Coming back just the ONE more time as lord of Lords and king of Kings, for the day of vengeance.

There are no "phases" there is only the simplicity of Gods Word. No confusion.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
I don't have a problem for both those who believe in a pretrib rapture and those who believe in a posttrib rapture being correct. if you believe your will be raptured before the great tribulation then that is what happens for that group of believers and if you believe that you will be raptured after the tribulation then that is what will happen for that group of believers. Faith is important in what happens. I might add that I believe many are being raptured right now as this video shows

http://mobilelaz.com/judgmentday/thedayofthelord.mp4
You seem to be forgetting the part that Satan is coming to deceive the whole world. And if you don't have on the full gospel armor because you think you will be evacuated before the storm, YOU will be deceived.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,830
4,315
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mywebsite.us
I guess different people have different definitions of the term "dispensationalist" then.

I am curious though, how would you define one to be?
I know of only one definition - one who believes that God "ordained" history to be divided into separate "dispensations" of time - marked by [groups of major] prophetic events - whereby, each prophetic event [group] ushers in the next dispensation.

Historically (in my experience), anyone who was a "dispensationalist" was taught - and believed - pretrib rapture, 70th week of Daniel as trib week, etc. (with the trib week considered to be its own separate dispensation)
 
Jan 12, 2019
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I know of only one definition - one who believes that God "ordained" history to be divided into separate "dispensations" of time - marked by [groups of major] prophetic events - whereby, each prophetic event [group] ushers in the next dispensation.

Historically (in my experience), anyone who was a "dispensationalist" was taught - and believed - pretrib rapture, 70th week of Daniel as trib week, etc. (with the trib week considered to be its own separate dispensation)
In my opinion, the people here lean more toward Covenant Theology. They believe in the OT, people were looking forward to the Cross and hence, everyone since Adam and Eve was saved by grace thru putting their faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection.

That will set them up with obvious clashes with dispensationalist thinking.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,830
4,315
113
mywebsite.us
In my opinion, the people here lean more toward Covenant Theology. They believe in the OT, people were looking forward to the Cross and hence, everyone since Adam and Eve was saved by grace thru putting their faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection.

That will set them up with obvious clashes with dispensationalist thinking.
On the contrary...

That is simply one of the dispensations.

In dispensationalist thinking, every single moment in history since creation is part of some dispensation.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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On the contrary...

That is simply one of the dispensations.

In dispensationalist thinking, every single moment in history since creation is part of some dispensation.
From my perspective, there are 3 main types of disp, depending on when you believe the Body of Christ, comprising of Jews and Gentiles, began:

Acts 2 disp
Mid Acts disp
Acts 28 disp
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Surely you know that the Rapture is the supernatural transformation of living saints and their being caught up to Heaven by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. It has absolutely no relationship to the Great Tribulation, and must occur BEFORE the Tribulation period. [Note: While the word *rapture* is not found in our English bibles, it is derived from the Latin *rapimur* in Jerome's Vulgate, which is the translation for *caught up"]

1 THESSALONIANS 4: THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE OF THE SAINTS

CHRISTIANS ARE NOT TO LAMENT FOR THOSE WHO HAVE PASSED ON
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

THOSE SAINTS (SOULS & SPIRITS) WILL COME WITH JESUS
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [Note: sleep is only a metaphor for death]

THE LIVING SAINTS WILL NOT PRECEDE THE ONES WHO WILL BE RESURRECTED
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [Note: *prevent* means *precede* (go ahead of)]

CHRIST HIMSELF WILL COME FOR HIS SAINTS AT THE RAPTURE
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:...

BUT THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST
...and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

THEN THE LIVING SAINTS WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:...

ALL THE SAINTS WILL BE WITH THE LORD ETERNALLY IN THE NEW JERUSALEM
...and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

THE DOCTRINE OF THE RAPTURE IS FOR THE COMFORT OF CHRISTIANS
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Christ does NOT come to the earth, but remains *in the air* (the atmospheric heaven). And this entire event is SUPERNATURAL and in the twinkling of an eye (nanoseconds).
Well put sir
 
Jul 23, 2018
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It is important to gather all verses possible before establishing a position.

In the pretrib doctine,there is harmony of verses.
I do not see that in mid and postrib rapture models.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
1 THESSALONIANS 4: THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE OF THE SAINTS

CHRISTIANS ARE NOT TO LAMENT FOR THOSE WHO HAVE PASSED ON NOTHING ON SATANS TRIB HERE JUST SPEAKING ON THOSE WHO HAVE DIED
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

THOSE SAINTS (SOULS & SPIRITS) WILL COME WITH JESUS NOTHING ABOUT before SATANS TRIBULATION HERE JUST WHEN JESUS RETURNS HE WILL BE BRINGING BACK WITH HIM THOSE WHO HAVE ALREADY PASSED ON, MANY OF THEM WHO WERE KILLED JUST BECAUSE THEY WOULD NOT DENY HIM AS THE SON OF GOD.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [Note: sleep is only a metaphor for death]

THE LIVING SAINTS WILL NOT PRECEDE THE ONES WHO WILL BE RESURRECTED NOTHING HERE ABOUT before SATANS TRIBULATION ABOUT TO COME, JUST AN EXPLANATION ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE WHO HAVE DIED AND WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE WHEN HE DOES RETURN
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [Note: *prevent* means *precede* (go ahead of)]

CHRIST HIMSELF WILL COME FOR HIS SAINTS AT THE RAPTURE NOTHING ABOUT before SATANS TRIBULATION HERE, JUST AN EXPLANATION ABOUT HOW HE WILL RETURN, WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:...

BUT THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST NOTHING ABOUT before SATANS TRIBULATION HERE, JUST AN EXPLANATION ABOUT HOW THE DEAD IN CHRIST OR THOSE WHO HAVE TAKEN THE MARK OF THE BEAST HAVE TO DIE BECAUSE THEY CAN NOT BE FOREVER WITH THE LORD, THEY WILL HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL THE END OF THE MILLENNIUM AND THE WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT TO SEE IF THEY WILL BE GIVEN IMMORTALITY OR THE LAKE OF FIRE
...and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

THEN THE LIVING SAINTS WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM NOTHING ABOUT before SATANS TRIBULATION HERE, JUST AN EXPLANATION ABOUT THE FIRST RESURRECTION, THOSE WHO HAVE NOT TAKEN THE MARK OF THE BEAST AND RECEIVING THEIR IMMORTALITY AND THE CHANGING FROM A TERRESTRIAL BODY TO THE CELESTIAL BODY.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:...

ALL THE SAINTS WILL BE WITH THE LORD ETERNALLY IN THE NEW JERUSALEM YES THEY WILL, BUT ONLY AFTER THE LORDS DAY (SOMETIMES CALLED THE MILLENNIUM, OR THE 1000 YRS SATAN IS BOUND IN THE PIT)
...and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

THE DOCTRINE OF THE RAPTURE IS FOR THE COMFORT OF CHRISTIANS SO DON'T WORRY ABOUT YOUR LOVED ONES WHO HAVE DIED. TO BE ABSENT FROM THIS FLESH BODY IS TO BE WITH THE LORD. THEIR CARCASS MAY BE IN A HOLE IN THE EARTH BUT THEY HAVE BEEN GIVEN THEIR CELESTIAL BODIES AND WILL BE RETURNING WITH THE LORD FOR THE LORDS DAY, A DAY OF VENGEANCE FOR ALL WHO HAVE TAKEN THE MARK OF THE BEAST.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
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WAS The 1st letter to the Thessalonians EVEN BEING TAKEN WRONG BACK THEN??? YES.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


2ND LETTER TO THE THESSALONIANS

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2 Thessalonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Thessalonians 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (This is Satan being revealed here on earth.)

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Paul went to Thessalonica and started a church. They received TRUTH. Paul wrote them the first letter, probably going over things he had taught already including about their loved ones who had died, and how they would come back with Christ when he returned.
But "some how??" the message was being changed.

So Paul wrote them ANOTHER ONE to CORRECT their knowledge.

After the opening of the second letter, Paul gets right to the point, and it is about the return of Jesus. When you go back to the Greek sometimes it is easier to "see" the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
We implore now you, brothers, by the coming of the Lord of us Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him,

2:2 for not quickly to be shaken you in mind nor to be troubled neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter as if by us as that is present the day of the Lord

2:3 No one you should deceive in not one way because if not {until} shall have come the apostasy first and shall have been revealed the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction

2:4 the {one} opposing and exalting himself above every so-called god or object of worship so as for him in the temple of God to sit down setting forth he himself that is God.

2:5 Not do you remember that yet being with you these things I was saying to you?


Paul is REMINDING them of what he had told them before and how the gathering to Christ would not be until AFTER Satan was revealed on earth, and it would be AFTER Satan "setting forth he himself that is God".
 
Jul 23, 2018
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In my opinion, the people here lean more toward Covenant Theology. They believe in the OT, people were looking forward to the Cross and hence, everyone since Adam and Eve was saved by grace thru putting their faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection.

That will set them up with obvious clashes with dispensationalist thinking.
I guess others will have to label me.
I am not bound in my perspecive to dispensations/non dispensations.

Just the word and purposes of God.
It says "jerusalem shall be trodden down by the gentiles,till the TIME OF the gentiles is complete."
I can call it or frame it any way i want,it is though, a bracket of time... As was the period of judges,and the levitical priesthood.
They were brackets of time.

Church age is another bracket of time.
Jacobs trouble is another bracket. It begins and ends.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
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WAS The 1st letter to the Thessalonians EVEN BEING TAKEN WRONG BACK THEN??? YES.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


2ND LETTER TO THE THESSALONIANS

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2 Thessalonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Thessalonians 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (This is Satan being revealed here on earth.)

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Paul went to Thessalonica and started a church. They received TRUTH. Paul wrote them the first letter, probably going over things he had taught already including about their loved ones who had died, and how they would come back with Christ when he returned.
But "some how??" the message was being changed.

So Paul wrote them ANOTHER ONE to CORRECT their knowledge.

After the opening of the second letter, Paul gets right to the point, and it is about the return of Jesus. When you go back to the Greek sometimes it is easier to "see" the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
We implore now you, brothers, by the coming of the Lord of us Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him,

2:2 for not quickly to be shaken you in mind nor to be troubled neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter as if by us as that is present the day of the Lord

2:3 No one you should deceive in not one way because if not {until} shall have come the apostasy first and shall have been revealed the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction

2:4 the {one} opposing and exalting himself above every so-called god or object of worship so as for him in the temple of God to sit down setting forth he himself that is God.

2:5 Not do you remember that yet being with you these things I was saying to you?


Paul is REMINDING them of what he had told them before and how the gathering to Christ would not be until AFTER Satan was revealed on earth, and it would be AFTER Satan "setting forth he himself that is God".
I am pretrib and have no problem with the ac being manifest and recognised before the rapture.

I even think all believers will be rounded up and detained in huge open air facilities before the rapture.
Then raptured out of those facilities.
The postribs will chide "ha,ha where is your so called rapture baloney"
And
"Your escapest false doctine revealed now. You will have to go through the great tribulation. No easy way out for you!!!"

Then the Lord shall appear in the sky like a sunrise and up,up,up goes the bride!!!
The foolish that invested falsely will cry to the throne..the foolish virgins of mat 25.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
760
113
I am pretrib and have no problem with the ac being manifest and recognised before the rapture.

I even think all believers will be rounded up and detained in huge open air facilities before the rapture.
Then raptured out of those facilities.
The postribs will chide "ha,ha where is your so called rapture baloney"
And
"Your escapest false doctine revealed now. You will have to go through the great tribulation. No easy way out for you!!!"

Then the Lord shall appear in the sky like a sunrise and up,up,up goes the bride!!!
The foolish that invested falsely will cry to the throne..the foolish virgins of mat 25.

Please explain 2nd Thessalonians. And please give me Scripture, just one single one where we are told "Jesus will come back before Satan. I have shown you were we are told with clear, concise words "by the coming of the Lord of us Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him," followed by " for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" .

The WORD OF GOD says " our gathering together unto Him shall not come except that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

But YOU say, "our gathering together unto Him WILL happen BEFORE Satans Tribulation"

If Paul knew or taught there was a "gathering" before Satan, why would he have been so specific as to "our gathering".

So please, explain where I CAN FIND IT IN THE BIBLE where it states, anything to the effect of "we gather to the Lord BEFORE Satan comes". Doesn't it strike you as strange, that there is not one verse for such a BIG HUGE CHRISTIAN EVENT? Doesn't it seem IMPOSSIBLE that the Word of God would cover what we should do if we find a neighbors animal, but you can't come up with a single emphatic verse for "pre trib rap"? How about the writing of the exact opposite of your "claimed" event?

Next, your statement - Then the Lord shall appear in the sky like a sunrise and up,up,up goes the bride!!!

Do you know God specifically is against those who teach His children to fly? Here He goes again, making an emphatic statement against what you refer to as up, up, up and me being left behind. (Its like He knows)

Ezekiel 13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart and prophesy thou against them,

Ezekiel 13:18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

Ezekiel 13:19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

Ezekiel 13:21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 13:22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life

Ezekiel 13:23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.


And your last statement

The foolish that invested falsely will cry to the throne..the foolish virgins of mat 25.[/QUOTE]

Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Matthew 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

Matthew 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

Matthew 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
1637 elaion
olive oil, oil
Cognate - the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. While all true believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, none can give their oil to some else. Each person must seek and find the Lord for them self.

5547 Christos
the Anointed One, Messiah, Christ
from 5548 "anoint with olive oil"


Matthew 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

Matthew 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh go ye out to meet him.
What time is it? MIDNIGHT. It is dark. Who makes things dark? Who is of the night? So it is already dark when Jesus comes. Remember what happens because of His Brightness when He comes?

Matthew 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil for our lamps are gone out.
They are missing some gospel armor. But the wise can not give anything to them. The foolish should have gone and seeked out GODS TRUTH and left the theories or doctrines of man, that make void the word of God alone

Matthew 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so lest there be not enough for us and you but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
The foolish now have to go out into the DARKNESS of Night, TO THE SELLER. That is another way of saying "Mark of the beast"

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage and the door was shut.
So they weren't raptured away at all. The only thing that PRE Trib did was deceive them into thinking they didn't need "ALL" the Word of God. They were going to be "out of here". "Flown away to safety".

So they quit "seeking" to put on the full gospel armor. And then found themselves in the dead of night, no oil or gospel armor to know what to do. They are not going to fair well. If they are teaching it on top of it, well, you know we are the first to be judged. I am 100% positive.

Matthew 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

But that was the last night of Satans Tribulation. They went and participated in Satans world. They have committed idolatry. They are no longer virgins. They are with child and giving suck. It is one day to late. They were presented with Gods Truth and they denied it. They are the first one taken. Taken in by deception.

There is no need for us to comment or reply to each others posts past this, if you remain firm in your beliefs, as I in mine. You know what the bible says when we get to this point in a discussion. Back to the Study for me....
 
Jan 12, 2019
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I guess others will have to label me.
I am not bound in my perspecive to dispensations/non dispensations.

Just the word and purposes of God.
It says "jerusalem shall be trodden down by the gentiles,till the TIME OF the gentiles is complete."
I can call it or frame it any way i want,it is though, a bracket of time... As was the period of judges,and the levitical priesthood.
They were brackets of time.

Church age is another bracket of time.
Jacobs trouble is another bracket. It begins and ends.
But you understood the pre tribulation rapture from Paul correct?

It was not revealed in the non Pauline part of scripture.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Oh, but it does.
Jesus arrives as lord of Lords and king of Kings to begin the Millennium, that the 1st resurrection takes place
"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They a had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection."

The resurrection listed above, is in reference to the great tribulation saints only. It does not include the church, which will have been resurrected several years prior. If you apply the resurrection above to include the church, which takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, it would mean that the church would be going through the entire wrath of God, which scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked and that is what you would have Him doing if you include the church in the resurrection above.

In addition, the fact that scripture states that they will have died because of their testimony about Jesus and the word of God. And because they will have not worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark, that it is speaking about those great tribulation saints who will be on the earth during the beasts reign and is not referring to the church.


The 1st resurrection, is made up of every resurrection which takes place prior to and after the Lord returns to the earth. The word "First" resurrection, does not mean only resurrection. It just so happens that the phrase is used to describe the great tribulation saints being resurrected as being part of the first resurrection. The church is next as part of the first resurrection, which is imminent. The two witnesses will be resurrected and caught up to heaven in the middle of the seven years. And the male child, which is a collective name for the 144,000, will be caught up to God and His throne, which also takes place in the middle of the seven. After Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, then the great tribulation saints are resurrected. All of these fall under the banner of the first resurrection.

1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, Those who DID NOT take the mark of the beast will be transformed, never tasting death, into their spiritual bodies
The above is the promise to the church, which will take place prior to the emergence of the beast and his mark. Those who do not take his mark will be the great tribulation saints, not the church. If you'll notice, the word church is never used again after the end of chapter 3. The word changes to "Saints" which is referring to those saints who come out of the great tribulation.

After the church has been gathered, there will be countless numbers who will become believers during the time of God's wrath referred to as those saints who come out of the great tribulation. This is not the church.

1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The above all happens prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

Jesus descending at the last, or 7th trump, causes all those with the mark of the beast to die
I don't know where you are getting your information from, but the "Last trumpet" and the "7th Trumpet" have nothing to do with each other:

Last Trumpet = The last of a type of trumpet which signals the gathering of the church

Seventh angel/Seventh Trumpet = The last trumpet of seven trumpet judgments.

Nowhere in the context does it state that Jesus descends at the 7th trumpet! You are simply inserting that into the context.

1Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
BECAUSE THERE WILL NEVER BE FLESH BODIES AGAIN FROM THAT POINT ON. GOOD BAD UGLY, ALL are put IN INCORRIPTUBLE SPIRITUAL BODIES FOR THE MILLENNIUM


Once again, the above takes place for the church only. And you are correct in that, from that point forward the church will be in their immortal and glorified bodies. However, the rest of the earths population which will include those who come to Christ after the gathering of the church, the wicked, Israel and the 144, 000, will all still be in their mortal bodies. The great tribulation saints will be exposed to all of God's wrath and they are the ones who John sees resurrecting in Rev.20:4-6

1Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
And when those who have overcome, have not taken the mark, and are TRANSFORMED into their spiritual body, then "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY
1Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The scripture that you are quoting above, is just describing when the Lord descends to gather the church, which will take place prior to God's wrath. It is not stating that this event takes place when the Lord returns to the earth. The church will never see the antichrist, nor his mark, but will be removed prior to the first seal being opened.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself that where I am, there ye may be also.
I quote the above scripture often. But that event happens before God's wrath begins. Do you see the first part of the first verse? It says, Let not your hear be troubled." If the church was to first go through God's wrath, then we would have reason to be troubled. But because Jesus is going to gather His church prior to His wrath, then we have no reason to be troubled.

Coming back just the ONE more time as lord of Lords and king of Kings, for the day of vengeance.
There are no "phases" there is only the simplicity of Gods Word. No confusion.
Your error is the same as many. You interpret the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth as being the same event, which they are not, but are two separate events.

When the Lord appears to gather His church, he does not return to the earth, but calls us up and meets us in the air and then returns to the Fathers house with His bride/church. At that time is when believers will be judged at the Bema Seat to receive reward or loss of reward. It is also during this time that we will attend the wedding of the Lamb, in heaven.

In opposition, at the end of the seven years, the Lord will descend from heaven, with us following behind Him on white horses (Rev.19:14) and He will return to the earth to end the age and establish His kingdom. The gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth are at least seven years apart.

"While people (unbelievers) are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief.

Your error is that you have the believers in Christ being destroyed right along with the unbelievers. Because the unbelievers are in the darkness, they will be destroyed. But we belong to the light and that day will not overtake us. The meaning is that we will not be here during time of darkness, because we will have been removed, because we belong to the light. "But you brother, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief."

Your version has the church suffering the same wrath that the wicked will suffer. Understand this, the wrath of God that is coming, is not the same as common trials and tribulation that Jesus said we would have, but is the direct wrath of God, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And scripture says that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, ergo, we can't be here for it.

If believers are to suffer through God's coming wrath, then the wrath that Jesus took upon Himself on behalf of every believer would have meant nothing. When we believed we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God through faith. But you have us being punished right along with the wicked.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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From my perspective, there are 3 main types of disp, depending on when you believe the Body of Christ, comprising of Jews and Gentiles, began:

Acts 2 disp
Mid Acts disp
Acts 28 disp

Why would any be needed?