Are you a rebel, a follower of Christ, or a legalist?

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Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#1
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#1
Rebels say they can’t be perfect so they won’t follow God for God is perfect. Rebels say the Lord sees works as filthy rags, so they won’t work. Rebels say their work would not gain them entrance to heaven, only what Christ did can do that so they won’t work.

Legalist say they are pretty hot stuff and they act like it. They say they are pleasing to God only by what they do, so they follow the rules. Legalist act without the love the God in their heart but with cold calculations. A legalist would refuse to help others on a Sabbath day in order to follow the Sabbath rule, not acknowledging the love for all that Christ within would give them.

Followers of Christ say that God created them and all things, that in reality they are Christ’s and owe Christ obedience. Followers of Christ know Christ was perfect, and through His perfection their sins are forgiven. To accept Christ within is to accept a will to be perfect as the only truth for themselves. That they are righteous only through the righteousness of Christ does not stop them from giving their will to Christ.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#2
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
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#2
Followers of Christ also say, rightly, that their work would not gain them entrance to heaven. Followers of Christ know that they are perfect only in and through Christ, and that the effort of their own will leads them into legalism. They know that submission of their will to God's is wise, but that giving of their will is not, because God won't take it from them.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#3
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
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#3
Dino246 said:
Followers of Christ also say, rightly, that their work would not gain them entrance to heaven. Followers of Christ know that they are perfect only in and through Christ, and that the effort of their own will leads them into legalism. They know that submission of their will to God's is wise, but that giving of their will is not, because God won't take it from them.
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You are right on, except why in the world would you say that if you have Christ within so your will is to follow in His footsteps it leads to legalism? Did Christ follow legalism because he followed perfectly?
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#4
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
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#4
Blik said:
You are right on, except why in the world would you say that if you have Christ within so your will is to follow in His footsteps it leads to legalism? Did Christ follow legalism because he followed perfectly?
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If you follow Christ with your will, you are doing so by your own power, not the power of the Holy Spirit. That leads either to rule-following what you can do easily (legalism), and pride/arrogance because "you" did it (and others 'should' too). For some people it leads to frustration at failure, abandonment of effort, and sin. The only way to walk the narrow path of righteousness consistently is by the Holy Spirit.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#5
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
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#5
Dino246 said:
If you follow Christ with your will, you are doing so by your own power, not the power of the Holy Spirit. That leads either to rule-following what you can do easily (legalism), and pride/arrogance because "you" did it (and others 'should' too). For some people it leads to frustration at failure, abandonment of effort, and sin. The only way to walk the narrow path of righteousness consistently is by the Holy Spirit.
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How can you say this? If you give your will over to Christ, then that will is led by Christ not you. You listen for His instructions, not your own. You are speaking of following how you decide without the Holy Spirit and the words of the Lord as it is given in scripture. Following you can lead to being a rebel, as you say following Christ can lead to legalism.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#7
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
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#7
Blik said:
How can you say this? If you give your will over to Christ, then that will is led by Christ not you. You listen for His instructions, not your own. You are speaking of following how you decide without the Holy Spirit and the words of the Lord as it is given in scripture. Following you can lead to being a rebel, as you say following Christ can lead to legalism.
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I think you're misunderstanding me. God will not simply remove from us our will if we offer it to Him. That's not how He works. He guides, leads, nudges, convicts, woos, and encourages us in certain directions, because He wants us to want to go in those directions.

Imagine being married to someone who "gives their will" over to you. You direct their every action. Would the affection that they give to you be genuine? No. The same is true with God; God will not remove from us our will if we offer it to Him. It's not something that we are capable of "giving over"; it cannot be separated from us because it is integral to our humanity.

Instead, submission of our will to God is a daily choice to set aside "my" will in favour of His guidance. It's hard, because it requires conscious relinquishing of what "I" think is right, just, good, logical, etc. and choosing to do what God says. It's daily trust, which is much harder than simply abandoning our will to Him.
 
I

IFOLLOWHIM

Guest
#8
#8
Dino246 said:
I think you're misunderstanding me. God will not simply remove from us our will if we offer it to Him. That's not how He works. He guides, leads, nudges, convicts, woos, and encourages us in certain directions, because He wants us to want to go in those directions.

Imagine being married to someone who "gives their will" over to you. You direct their every action. Would the affection that they give to you be genuine? No. The same is true with God; God will not remove from us our will if we offer it to Him. It's not something that we are capable of "giving over"; it cannot be separated from us because it is integral to our humanity.

Instead, submission of our will to God is a daily choice to set aside "my" will in favour of His guidance. It's hard, because it requires conscious relinquishing of what "I" think is right, just, good, logical, etc. and choosing to do what God says. It's daily trust, which is much harder than simply abandoning our will to Him.
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So very well said!
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#9
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#9
Dino246 said:
I think you're misunderstanding me. God will not simply remove from us our will if we offer it to Him. That's not how He works. He guides, leads, nudges, convicts, woos, and encourages us in certain directions, because He wants us to want to go in those directions.

Imagine being married to someone who "gives their will" over to you. You direct their every action. Would the affection that they give to you be genuine? No. The same is true with God; God will not remove from us our will if we offer it to Him. It's not something that we are capable of "giving over"; it cannot be separated from us because it is integral to our humanity.

Instead, submission of our will to God is a daily choice to set aside "my" will in favour of His guidance. It's hard, because it requires conscious relinquishing of what "I" think is right, just, good, logical, etc. and choosing to do what God says. It's daily trust, which is much harder than simply abandoning our will to Him.
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Thank you for explaining. We seem to have ended up in the same place, to follow Christ.

And thank you for your work for the Lord! You are a stone to sharpen me. It speaks of you in Isaiah.
 
M

morefaithrequired

Guest
#10
#10
I always get perplexed when people start talking about God's will and my will. Surely God gives us credit when our will matches His. it could actually cause the religiously scrupulous to be afraid "oh no. am I doing God's will now or my own?". people who second guess themselves already, become even more neurotic.
 
I

IFOLLOWHIM

Guest
#11
#11
I simply put all in His hands,and trust Him! If I'm not in His will He will bring chaistisment and correction. Just as we do any of our children that step out of line!
 
Mii

Mii

Well-known member
#12
Mar 23, 2019
2,082
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#12
I don't appreciate the word neurotic in regards to following the Lord, even if thinking about it in such a manner as a child learning to potty train. Think of the thought processes that they go through...

@morefaithrequired

That's kind of what it can look like at times referring to sin as the training. We start out sinning all over the place. As the sanctification process continues the ones that are guided "easier" and are less stubborn I think just learn to flush.

Others such as myself get constipated and have accidents. Or sometimes get sick due to not abiding and have ...well...

It's strange how it all works. I feel patience that reminds me of that and that's pretty generous but at the same time discipline comes in when we sin on purpose...if we sin continuously? God forbid. I won't speak to that stench. It's too thick and it the fumes get to me...I've taken a whiff. Hopefully that's all I will EVER need to know.

So I just recognize I don't have it figured out, I know I've arrived somewhere in the process, but that alas waste still occurs. Even with what I see as tiny sins, they are still waste. Waste of a second, waste of a minute, waste of one idle word. An opportunity lost, gone forever. Not saying that to be bleak...but that well, we will waste. That's why we need pruning. We are still growing. It's ok to have accidents. That much at least I am clear on.

That's what I've learned. I've focus on the conundrum so much that some things have happened that I don't really want to discuss at present other than to say it does not do to dwell on sin, but to continue to walk and abide regardless. His grace is sufficient...


I know that's something of a gnarly analogy but sin isn't exactly pretty.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#13
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
113
#13
On rebels, they dont really want to do any work so they just go off and watch or play sport instead? I mean what else are they going to do with their time if they not following God?
 
Lightskin

Lightskin

Well-known member
#14
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,665
113
#14
Blik said:
To accept Christ within is to accept a will to be perfect as the only truth for themselves.
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And no matter how hard people may try, no one is perfect but Jesus. Thank God for His love and saving grace. 😎
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#15
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
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#15
Lightskin said:
And no matter how hard people may try, no one is perfect but Jesus. Thank God for His love and saving grace. 😎
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I could not get past the conflated thoughts of the first post.....biblical truths about men and our works conflated with the personal vendetta of the thread......
 
calibob

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
#16
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,516
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#16
Blik said:
Rebels say they can’t be perfect so they won’t follow God for God is perfect. Rebels say the Lord sees works as filthy rags, so they won’t work. Rebels say their work would not gain them entrance to heaven, only what Christ did can do that so they won’t work.

Legalist say they are pretty hot stuff and they act like it. They say they are pleasing to God only by what they do, so they follow the rules. Legalist act without the love the God in their heart but with cold calculations. A legalist would refuse to help others on a Sabbath day in order to follow the Sabbath rule, not acknowledging the love for all that Christ within would give them.

Followers of Christ say that God created them and all things, that in reality they are Christ’s and owe Christ obedience. Followers of Christ know Christ was perfect, and through His perfection their sins are forgiven. To accept Christ within is to accept a will to be perfect as the only truth for themselves. That they are righteous only through the righteousness of Christ does not stop them from giving their will to Christ.
Click to expand...
Not all rebellion is bad Christians follow a higher calling than the Pharisees who were un able to understand forgiveness and made the Levitical laws a death trap for the spirit. And the Romans worshiped many false gods and demi gods but not the #1 and only true God in 3 manifestations, Father Son & Holy Spirit.

Many times the 1st century Christians, (or Saints if you will), were ordered to go away and stop talking about Jesus at risk of pain and death, at the hands of a sociopathic 'A'-moral system. The population got vicarious thrills out of watching people being tortured, stoned or beaten to death. They were so self rightous that they willingly joined in on the murderous activity also. Yet id did not dissuade the true messenger of the Gospel and they were willing to face pain and death for spreading the word and were outlaws according to the Pharisees, Sadducees and Romans. They are heroes to us, or at least they should be.
 
G

garee

Banned
#17
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
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#17
Rebels are identified in the scriptures are those who make all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) without effect.

One example is found in Jeremiah 44, as a law of the fathers and kings. They saw no value in all things written in the law and the prophets .in the end seeing no evil in doing so. But they rather do as oral traditions whatsoever their own mouth say. . . earthly inspired by the father of lies .Making the word of God to no effect.

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil .Jeremiah 44

Another example of those who rebell against prophecy, would be when in Egypt the believers were awaiting the fulfilment of prophecy the four hundred years.

In that situation God created a outward signs against the faithless rebels. The signs were not for the believer that were trusting prophecy .

Two signs were used working as one. They were given to display to the world they are born dead in there trespass and sin without a living hope coming from a living God not seen . yet they still would not believe in a God not seen.

Exodus 4 King James Version (KJV)4 And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The Lord hath not appeared unto thee. And the Lord said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod. And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it.And the Lord said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand: That they may believe that the Lord God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee. And the Lord said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow. (spiritualy dead) And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh.(spiritual life)And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign.

It as a sign against rebellious unbelievers is revealed as Law below. The foundation "yet for all of that revealed as prophecy they remained in unbelief. No faith .

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1 Corinthians 14:21-22.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#18
Jul 3, 2015
60,330
29,576
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#18
1 Timothy 1:9
We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for
lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and
irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

Titus 1:10
For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless
talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group.
 
JamOn

JamOn

Banned
#19
Jun 10, 2019
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#19
Isn’t a rebel someone who goes against the mainstream or grain.
 
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