Could use some help
- Thread starter LeeLoving
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Never said I was! 
What I often am attacked for is sharing on the relationship between Jesus and God. So I point out passages that support what God has given me to teach.
And regarding what our Lord Jesus prayed in John 17... some will grasp it's implications; others will not.
No, we will never be "God"; but the "Elect" are "Christ." Jesus is the Head and King, but those "united" to Him (as He is united to God), will be "One with Him, as He is One with His Father."
What I often am attacked for is sharing on the relationship between Jesus and God. So I point out passages that support what God has given me to teach.
And regarding what our Lord Jesus prayed in John 17... some will grasp it's implications; others will not.
No, we will never be "God"; but the "Elect" are "Christ." Jesus is the Head and King, but those "united" to Him (as He is united to God), will be "One with Him, as He is One with His Father."
Never said I was!
What I often am attacked for is sharing on the relationship between Jesus and God. So I point out passages that support what God has given me to teach.
And regarding what our Lord Jesus prayed in John 17... some will grasp it's implications; others will not.
No, we will never be "God"; but the "Elect" are "Christ." Jesus is the Head and King, but those "united" to Him (as He is united to God), will be "One with Him, as He is One with His Father."
What I often am attacked for is sharing on the relationship between Jesus and God. So I point out passages that support what God has given me to teach.
And regarding what our Lord Jesus prayed in John 17... some will grasp it's implications; others will not.
No, we will never be "God"; but the "Elect" are "Christ." Jesus is the Head and King, but those "united" to Him (as He is united to God), will be "One with Him, as He is One with His Father."
And you realize of course that John 10:30, taken with John 17:21 would mean that these disciples are also "God", since they are "one with Christ as He is One with the Father."
And Truthfully... (and here come the attacks of blasphemy as they came to Jesus!)... in that Day, the overcoming Elect will be able to say, along with the Son... "I AM."
And Truthfully... (and here come the attacks of blasphemy as they came to Jesus!)... in that Day, the overcoming Elect will be able to say, along with the Son... "I AM."
i can give a proof from John 17 that Christ is God. ((i just did)). i do not know how to prove from John 17 that i am God. ((or that the disciples are God))
i think i can show that the proof that Christ is God in John 17 cannot be used to prove that i am God -- as you had implied it could ((unless there is a different proof in John 17 you care to share?)) -- but i need to find the back of an envelope to hash it out, probably tomorrow if it seems necessary to go through. i'm off to bed.
what do you mean that you will say "I AM" on that day?
please express your answer in terms of quantum physics!
or not. w/e
-
1
- Show all
does it say this? where does it say this?
that's not what John 17:21 says.
one in Him, not with Him. that they be one. how important is the distinction?
important enough for us not to blaspheme!
this is tangent to where we are:
humans are not monistic in substance: we have spirit, soul, and also body.
what about the parts of us that are not spirit? can we find that in scripture?
this all gets extremely complicated very quickly!
which we should expect, seeing that we're now starting to talk about 'knowing the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge' -- knowing what is impossible to know!
we need to know also how what He is saying is so that the world may believe He was sent by God.
that's not what John 17:21 says.
that they all may be one, as Thou Father art in Me, and I in Thee;
that they also in Us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.
(Young's Literal Translation)
that says "in us they all be one" that they also in Us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.
(Young's Literal Translation)
one in Him, not with Him. that they be one. how important is the distinction?
important enough for us not to blaspheme!
this is tangent to where we are:
whoever is united with the Lord is one with Him in spirit.
(1 Corinthians 6:17)
but this isn't totality of equivalence; it's one with Him in spirit. (1 Corinthians 6:17)
humans are not monistic in substance: we have spirit, soul, and also body.
what about the parts of us that are not spirit? can we find that in scripture?
this all gets extremely complicated very quickly!
which we should expect, seeing that we're now starting to talk about 'knowing the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge' -- knowing what is impossible to know!
we need to know also how what He is saying is so that the world may believe He was sent by God.
-
1
- Show all
"co-heirs with Christ" is indeed Bible.
Yet, I submit to you that "in Him" is even stronger than "with Him." Romans 8:1-4 IN CHRIST
Truly, if we are partaking of His substance - as Eve was made from the substance of Adam - , and "decreasing that He may increase" - actually being transformed - , we will "appear with Him as He is" in that Day. Actually covering this in our current Bible Study - 1Corinthians 10 Study The SUBSTANCE of CHRIST
No, we will never be "equal" to Christ Jesus, the Head of the Body; just as Jesus will never be "equal" to His (and His brothers') Father. 1Cor 15:28 is clear that the Lord Jesus will always "be subject to God."
Now, in the end... this is all Bible It cannot be dismissed or ignored. It is up to us to receive the whole counsel of God and believe it.
"I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." - Jude 1 5
May we be among those who believe.
-
1
- Show all
No @ForestGreenCook it does not.
2 Corinthians 5:15
He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
Hebrews 2:9
we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
There's two witnesses for you. There are more but that establishes the truth.
He died for all but 'only' bore the sins of many
It is, as you yourself said: all scripture must harmonize
2 Corinthians 5:15
He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
Hebrews 2:9
we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
There's two witnesses for you. There are more but that establishes the truth.
He died for all but 'only' bore the sins of many
It is, as you yourself said: all scripture must harmonize
-
1
- Show all
No @ForestGreenCook it does not.
2 Corinthians 5:15
He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
Hebrews 2:9
we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
There's two witnesses for you. There are more but that establishes the truth.
He died for all but 'only' bore the sins of many
It is, as you yourself said: all scripture must harmonize
2 Corinthians 5:15
He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
Hebrews 2:9
we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
There's two witnesses for you. There are more but that establishes the truth.
He died for all but 'only' bore the sins of many
It is, as you yourself said: all scripture must harmonize
-
1
- Show all
you had said that if John 17 implies an equivalence relationship between the Father and the Son, then it also implies one between the believer and God:
i can give a proof from John 17 that Christ is God. ((i just did)). i do not know how to prove from John 17 that i am God. ((or that the disciples are God))
i think i can show that the proof that Christ is God in John 17 cannot be used to prove that i am God -- as you had implied it could ((unless there is a different proof in John 17 you care to share?)) -- but i need to find the back of an envelope to hash it out, probably tomorrow if it seems necessary to go through. i'm off to bed.
what do you mean that you will say "I AM" on that day?
please express your answer in terms of quantum physics!
or not. w/e
i can give a proof from John 17 that Christ is God. ((i just did)). i do not know how to prove from John 17 that i am God. ((or that the disciples are God))
i think i can show that the proof that Christ is God in John 17 cannot be used to prove that i am God -- as you had implied it could ((unless there is a different proof in John 17 you care to share?)) -- but i need to find the back of an envelope to hash it out, probably tomorrow if it seems necessary to go through. i'm off to bed.
what do you mean that you will say "I AM" on that day?
please express your answer in terms of quantum physics!
or not. w/e
John 17 Paraphrase
-
1
- Show all
The devils are not subject to salvation. Those who do believe as a anchor to the salvation of their soul are subject to the gospel .
We have the witness in these bodies of death but would never say the power is of us. If any man has not the witness of the Spirit of Christ in them then they do not belong to Him.
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us
We have the witness in these bodies of death but would never say the power is of us. If any man has not the witness of the Spirit of Christ in them then they do not belong to Him.
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us
All those whose sins He bore, taking them away and casting them in the depths of the sea. All who believe, which no man can number
All those whose sins He bore, taking them away and casting them in the depths of the sea. All who believe, which no man can number
-
1
- Show all
Yes, I think there is a difference between dying for a man and bearing his sin.
It's the only way I know how to reconcile these things:
Scripture says He died for all
Scripture says not all are saved
Scripture says He bore the sins of many
I reckon, if He took away someone's sin that person cannot be condemned. But He could die for someone without taking away their sin - and they would still be liable to condemnation.
So it's the elect whose sins He bore - those who believe on Him, who are His sheep. But even though He died also for thw goats, because they do not believe, they will die in their sins - He does not bear those sins they die in; the goats are not raised with Him
It's the only way I know how to reconcile these things:
Scripture says He died for all
Scripture says not all are saved
Scripture says He bore the sins of many
I reckon, if He took away someone's sin that person cannot be condemned. But He could die for someone without taking away their sin - and they would still be liable to condemnation.
So it's the elect whose sins He bore - those who believe on Him, who are His sheep. But even though He died also for thw goats, because they do not believe, they will die in their sins - He does not bear those sins they die in; the goats are not raised with Him
-
1
- Show all
if the scripture literally, expressly verbatim says "He died for all" it's not a stretch to say He died for all.
and it does. in more than one place.
and it does. in more than one place.
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
(Hebrews 2:9)