WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

[Ahwatukee]

When does Satans Tribulation end and Gods Wrath begin?

As I said, the entire time period is God's wrath/tribulation. The only scripture that states that Satan is full of anger is because he will thrown out of heaven. But it's during the time of God's wrath that this happens. The meaning of his time being short, is because he is cast out in the middle of the seven years and therefore, he knows that he only has 3 1/2 years left before the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, where at which time he will be locked up in the Abyss.

There is not "Satan's tribulation and God's wrath." The time period is all God's wrath and God will be using Satan and his angels to fulfill some his wrath. Case in point: At the sounding of the 5th Trumpet, an angel unlocks the Abyss and lets out those demonic beings that resemble locusts, who will torment the inhabitants of the earth with stings like that of a scorpion. Only the 144,000 are exempt from this. Likewise, God puts it into the hearts of the beast and the ten kings to hate the woman, Babylon the great and will burn her with fire, completely destroying that city.

It's God's time of wrath, not Satan's. It is the Day of the Lord.

 

[DeighAnn]

The gathering of the church
When the Lord appears to gather the church,

Could I have the Chapter and verse that say "gathering of the church". Yes I am reading what you wrote. And I see you wrote "the gathering of the church" were do I find that? If you have given me the verse I apologize, I missed it and ask if you would please do so one more time.

 

[Ahwatukee]

This are the exact verses I have been waiting for someone to give me. Finally. That Jesus is returning to gather "the bride" before Satan arrives, and return to heaven, then come back for the Lords Day, because I have never found them.

Please, give me Christs doctrine on this. And if you wouldn't mind, if you just give Chapter and verse, in the best order to read it, that would be great.
comes back for Lords Day
with the bride
having returned to heaven
gather the bride before Satan kicked out of heaven
and calls up "the church"
and take them back to the Father's house,
which takes place prior to the opening of the first seal
and which initiates God's wrath.

(Part I)
I would truly be happy to.

First of all, it is important to understand that the phrase "Day of the Lord" also referred to as "the hour of trial" the latter found in Rev.3:10, is not a day in length, nor is it an hour. It covers the entire seven years of the tribulation period, the last 3 1/2 years referred to as the great tribulation. If you are not familiar with where we get the seven years from, let me know and I would be happy to explain that as well.

When coming to a conclusion regarding any Biblical subject, we must include any and all related scriptures. That being said, for those who believe and teach that the church will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, are not taking into consideration the scriptures which state that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. That being true, then believers cannot present on the earth during the time of God's wrath and therefore must be removed. This is where John 14:1-3 comes in:

===========================================================================
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going away to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."
==========================================================================

I Thess.4:13-17, the fulfillment of the promise above, when Jesus appears in our atmosphere to call up His church, the dead and living, Where at which time He will take us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. So, why do I think that this will happen prior to the time of God's wrath? Because God's word also says the following:

========================================================================

"Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!" (Rom.5:9)

"For they themselves report what kind of welcome you gave us, and how you turned away from idols to serve the living and true God and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath." (I Thess.1:10)

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (I Thess.5:9)

"Because you have kept My command to endure with patience, I will also keep you out of the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." (Rev.3:10)
=======================================================================

Now in order to circumvent the wrath issue, some created the apologetic that those verses above are speaking about God's ultimate wrath at the great white throne judgment. However, since believers have been credited with the righteousness of Christ and have been reconciled to God through His blood, then believers are not appointed suffer any of God's wrath. And that because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer. God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. This is another example of using all related scriptures in order to come to a right conclusion. Because of this, the church cannot be on the earth during the time period of God's wrath and therefore must be removed according to the promises made in both John 14:1-3 and I Thess.4:13-17.

(continued)

 

[Ahwatukee]

This are the exact verses I have been waiting for someone to give me. Finally. That Jesus is returning to gather
"the bride" before Satan arrives, and return to heaven, then come back for the Lords Day, because I have never found them.


(Part II)

Did you get that quote above from these verses?
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Regarding the abomination, Jesus makes it clear that he is quoting Daniel, so let's go to that scripture:

"And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.” (Dan.9:27)

First of all, in the scripture above, it is stated that "he" will confirm/make/establish a covenant with many for one week." The "he" in the verse grammatically speaking, must refer back to the last person mentioned, which in this case would be "the ruler" mentioned in v. 26, which is another designation for the future antichrist. So, it is that ruler, the antichrist who will make a covenant with many. Who are the many? The context tells us at least in part, who he makes his covenant with and that because in the middle of the seven years, he causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease and sets up the abomination in the holy place. The mention of sacrifices ceasing and the abomination being set up in the holy place would be indicative of Israel and her temple and not the church. In addition, it would have to be referring to a future temple and that because, 30 something years after the Lord quoted this, the temple was destroyed without any fulfillment of the seven year covenant being made and therefore no abomination has been set up. Once again, since God's word must be fulfilled, then the only conclusion is that there will be a future temple built in Jerusalem, so that Daniel 9:27 can be fulfilled.

Now getting back to Matt.24:15-22, notice also that the Lord mentions that when they see that abomination standing in the holy place, that those who are in Judea are to flee to the mountains. And then in v.20 the Lord says to "pray that it doesn't happen on the Sabbath." Both, the reference to Judea which is in Israel and the Sabbath day, would once again be indicative of Israel and is not the church. It is important to understand that the nation Israel and the church as being two separate dispensations with different programs. You might say, "the church is made up of both Jew and Gentile believers," which would be true. But when I say Israel, I am speaking about the nation Israel who reject Jesus as being their Messiah. It is the unbelieving nation of Israel that God is going to deal with during that last seven years and specifically during the last 3 1/2 years. The believers in Christ made up of both Jew and Gentiles which make up the church, will have been gathered prior to this.

The whole world will believe he is God, he has brought peace (fake) to the world. Because when does sudden destruction come? WHEN YOU HEAR PEACE AND SAFETY. How will the world feel peace and safety if Satan is going around killing everyone?

Below is the scripture that you are referring to:

===========================================
"Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. 2For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief."
===========================================

What times and seasons is Paul referring to above? In order to find out, we must look at what he was previously speaking about, which is the following:

==========================================
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."
=========================================

So, Paul was giving a detailed account of the gathering of the church, both dead and living. So, the times and seasons that he is speaking about, is referring to the Lord's coming to gather the dead and living believers. The Day of the Lord is always referred to as a day of darkness, a day of clouds and fierce wrath and anger. So, the gathering of the church takes place first, which is then followed by the day of the Lord. The sudden destruction which will come upon the people of the world will take place after the church is gathered and the wrath of God begins, which is initiated by the opening of the first seal. Notice that it states that the destruction will be "like labor pains on a pregnant woman." Considering that analogy, birth pains start off far apart and get closer together and more intense leading up to the birth. This is how the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are going to be. They will get closer together and more intense leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish His kingdom.

Notice also, that when it states that "while people are saying 'peace and safety" destruction will come upon them suddenly." But then regarding believers in v.4 is says "but you brother and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should take you by surprise like a thief." The reason for the contrast between believers and the wicked, is because of what Paul previously wrote in I Thess.4:16 will take place, removing believers from the earth. Just the first three words "but you brothers" would infer the opposite of what is going to happen to the wicked.

The bottom line to all of this is that, believers cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath. And since God's wrath covers the entire last seven years, then we must be gathered prior to that time.

I pray that the Spirit will open your eyes regarding to these truths.

Blessings in Christ!

 

[Ahwatukee]

Could I have the Chapter and verse that say "gathering of the church". Yes I am reading what you wrote. And I see you wrote "the gathering of the church" were do I find that? If you have given me the verse I apologize, I missed it and ask if you would please do so one more time.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." - I Thess.4:16-17

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." - I Corinthians 51-53

"After this I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet was saying, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.” - Rev.4:1

So, according to the scriptures above, when the Lord descends from heaven there will be a loud command with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God. That trumpet of God is synonymous with the voice that John hears which sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this" which is identified as Jesus' voice in Rev.1:10. This calling up is where first the dead in Christ will resurrect, immortal and glorified. And then immediately after that in a Nano second, those who are left and still alive, will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with those who will have just been resurrected. This is the gathering of the church to meet the Lord in the air. At that point, the entire church from its beginning right up to the resurrection, will be caught up and will meet the Lord in the air. Then the Lord will take the entire church, his bride, back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us as described in John 14:1-3.

Rev.4:1 is what I coined as a prophet allusion to when the church is caught up, being represented by John. In support of this, the word ekklesia translated as church, is used 19 times throughout Revelation chapters 1 thru 3. Then after Rev.4:1, the word ekklesia/church is never used again. It disappears from the narrative. The next time we see the church being referred to is in Rev.19:6-8 where as the bride, she is receiving her fine linen white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb, which takes place in heaven during the time of God's wrath. And the next time that we actually see the word church again, is in Rev.22:16 which is outside of the narrative in what would be the epilog. Coincidence? Not likely. The disuse of the word is a clue given to the reader of Revelation, which means that the church is removed at Rev.4:1. From that time forward, the word hagios/Saints is used, which is referring to those great tribulation saints who will not been believers prior to the church being gathered, but become believers during the time of God's wrath.

Hope this helps

 

[TooFastTurtle]

By using the term "Satan's tribulation" tells me that you are simply repeating well know false apologetics. I have heard this and contended against this teaching many times. The scripture that you are referring to regarding Satan's wrath, is only reference to when he is cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth. It is at this time and for that reason that he is full of wrath. It does not mean that the tribulation is Satan's wrath. It just means that he becomes angry during of God's wrath and because he and his angels will no longer be allowed in heaven. Satan and his angels being cast to the earth is in fact the results of the 7th trumpet/3rd woe, which extends throughout the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. It's all God's wrath and He utilizes Satan and the powers to carry out that wrath.

God's coming wrath will last seven years and will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Once the church has been gathered by the Lord and the antichrist establishes his seven covenant, then will begin God's wrath, the day of the Lord. Everything that happens during that time, including the beasts kingdom, is apart of God's wrath. There is no wrath of Satan.



If you would have read my previous post, you would have seen that I was being proactive and had already answered this question. You are not recognizing the difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have which come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness vs. the unprecedented coming wrath of God, also known as "the Day of the Lord." The apostles and the first century Christians being tortured, fed to the lions, etc., was not due to the wrath of God, but came at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. However, God's coming wrath upon this earth in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will come directly from God. It is this wrath that believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer. Your error is not discerning between these two. To be clear, there are presently believers all over the world who are being killed daily, but it is not through the wrath of God, but through the persecution and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have.



First of all, how do you know that I am not one God's elect? And second, anyone who belongs to Jesus is God's elect or chosen. It simply means those whom God chose before the world began. And I know that I will be resurrected or changed and caught up, because it is Jesus' promise to all believers. Paul called it "our blessed hope."

The purpose of gathering the church from the earth, is to remove us prior to God pouring His wrath, which will come upon the whole earth, the arrogant, the proud, the sexually immoral, liars, slanders, drunkards and everyone is willfully living according to the sinful nature and all who have rejected Christ.

Therefore, all of those having faith, who are watching and ready, will be changed and caught up. However, the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are still alive will be changed and caught up with them (I Thess.4:13-17). Anyone who is having faith will not be left behind.

Brother may I ask you an unrelated question: What do you believe about election/predestination? I would place great value on your opinion in this subject. Do you believe in free will? I do

 

[TooFastTurtle]

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." - I Thess.4:16-17

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." - I Corinthians 51-53

"After this I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet was saying, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.” - Rev.4:1

So, according to the scriptures above, when the Lord descends from heaven there will be a loud command with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God. That trumpet of God is synonymous with the voice that John hears which sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this" which is identified as Jesus' voice in Rev.1:10. This calling up is where first the dead in Christ will resurrect, immortal and glorified. And then immediately after that in a Nano second, those who are left and still alive, will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with those who will have just been resurrected. This is the gathering of the church to meet the Lord in the air. At that point, the entire church from its beginning right up to the resurrection, will be caught up and will meet the Lord in the air. Then the Lord will take the entire church, his bride, back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us as described in John 14:1-3.

Rev.4:1 is what I coined as a prophet allusion to when the church is caught up, being represented by John. In support of this, the word ekklesia translated as church, is used 19 times throughout Revelation chapters 1 thru 3. Then after Rev.4:1, the word ekklesia/church is never used again. It disappears from the narrative. The next time we see the church being referred to is in Rev.19:6-8 where as the bride, she is receiving her fine linen white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb, which takes place in heaven during the time of God's wrath. And the next time that we actually see the word church again, is in Rev.22:16 which is outside of the narrative in what would be the epilog. Coincidence? Not likely. The disuse of the word is a clue given to the reader of Revelation, which means that the church is removed at Rev.4:1. From that time forward, the word hagios/Saints is used, which is referring to those great tribulation saints who will not been believers prior to the church being gathered, but become believers during the time of God's wrath.

Hope this helps

Pre-trib rapture has a great biblical case. I believe if you take the Bible for what it says, compare Scripture with Scripture and factor in the millennium and OT prophecy, you will end up believing in the pre-trib rapture and a literal millennium with the Kingdom finally given to Israel which Peter was asking Jesus about in the beginning of the book of Acts

 

[garee]

All of those deeds were not the wrath of God that the Church went through

When the Lamb opens the seals, thats God's wrath, which believers are not here for.

What horrible things you ask? Read the trumpets and vials, they are no walk in the park. No flesh would be saved, this is going to be the worst time ever.

looking at the word wrath and its usages. I wonder where the idea of phrase; "the wrath of God that the Church went through".. . .came from. What wrath other than the wrath that is being revealed from heaven that ends in death. No sign is given. Its business as usual right up till the last day .

The idea that no flesh will be saved is the end.

 

[DeighAnn]

The purpose of gathering the church from the earth, is to remove us prior to God pouring His wrath, which will come upon the whole earth, the arrogant, the proud, the sexually immoral, liars, slanders, drunkards and everyone is willfully living according to the sinful nature and all who have rejected Christ.

CORRECT as far as" WHO" GODS WRATH WILL FALL UPON, AND it doesn't effect those who have THE SEAL OF GOD. Keep the faith and that faith will keep you FROM Gods Wrath. Just like standing in the fiery furnace and walking away not even smelling of smoke. That is faith in God. Not believing, or not having faith that THAT is how God works ...well there is that 1000 years to grow in wisdom and KNOWLEDGE understanding, without any evil influences, or flesh infirmities, isn't there?

Well, probably not how you see it

It's God's time of wrath, not Satan's. It is the Day of the Lord.

Or maybe this point. Satans tribulation is a time of testing. Gods wrath is a time of punishment for those who didn't obey God and so were deceived or those who are consciously following Satan, and of course, those who just didn't care.

2347 thlipsis
tribulation
persecution, affliction, distress

properly, pressure (what constricts or rubs together), used of a narrow place that "hems someone in" tribulation, especially internal pressure that causes someone to feel confined (restricted "without options") compression,

tribulation carries the challenge of coping with the internal pressure of a tribulation, especially when feeling there is 'no way of escape'

By contrast 4730 focuses on the external pressure exerted by circumstances
a pressing, pressing together, pressure


3709 orge
impluse, wrath
anger, wrath, passion
punishment, vengeance
anger exhibited in punishing
that in God which stands opposed to mans disobedience, obduracy (especially in resisting the gospel) and sin, and manifests itself in punishing the SAME


There is not one place stating that Jesus will return other than at the last trump.
Rap Theory- Assigns an 8the trump, or is it trump 0, or maybe trump 1, and now there are "REALLY 8" you decided, I am not good at making things up.

There is not one place stating "the church will be gathered together"
Rap Theory; -Takes verses of Christs return, and instead of at the end, moves them to the beginning, the "any day" theory because of all "the persecution" you and the church have been through,

There is not one place stating Satans Trib is Gods wrath
Rap Theory - Satans tribulation is considered "Gods Wrath" there is no difference, it is all Gods Wrath, which the church is not appointed to go.

There is not one of the verses on "Return or Coming or Lords Day etc" that is in conflict with another
Rap Theory - Return and Coming are not the same

No, we do not read Gods Word the same. I can see why you believe I have it all wrong.

 

[DeighAnn]

Wonder what a "man made doctrine" would LOOK and sound like? What and how a bunch of supposition and inferring would render void the Word of God by "adding" a different meaning and changing the Truth?


Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John

RAP THEORY-WHO WILL DO NO SERVICE FOR HIM

Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

RAP THEORY-NO NEED to KEEP, WON'T BE HERE

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne

RAP THEORY-INFORMATION CONTAINED WITHIN NON APPLICABLE

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

RAP THEORY-COMPANION IN GODS WRATH

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

RAP THEORY-WHO WONT BE HERE

Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow and his eyes were as a flame of fire

Revelation 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not, I am the first and the last

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

RAP THEORY-DOESN'T HAVE THE KEY OF DEATH BY ANY MEANS, OTHER THAN A "REMOVAL" TO HEAVEN

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter

RAP THEORY-BUT NOT FOR THEM

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

 

[Absolutely]

Wonder what a "man made doctrine" would LOOK and sound like? What and how a bunch of supposition and inferring would render void the Word of God by "adding" a different meaning and changing the Truth?

one could just read your garbled posts.
That would define it pretty well

 

[Absolutely]

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." - I Thess.4:16-17

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." - I Corinthians 51-53

"After this I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet was saying, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.” - Rev.4:1

So, according to the scriptures above, when the Lord descends from heaven there will be a loud command with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God. That trumpet of God is synonymous with the voice that John hears which sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this" which is identified as Jesus' voice in Rev.1:10. This calling up is where first the dead in Christ will resurrect, immortal and glorified. And then immediately after that in a Nano second, those who are left and still alive, will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with those who will have just been resurrected. This is the gathering of the church to meet the Lord in the air. At that point, the entire church from its beginning right up to the resurrection, will be caught up and will meet the Lord in the air. Then the Lord will take the entire church, his bride, back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us as described in John 14:1-3.

Rev.4:1 is what I coined as a prophet allusion to when the church is caught up, being represented by John. In support of this, the word ekklesia translated as church, is used 19 times throughout Revelation chapters 1 thru 3. Then after Rev.4:1, the word ekklesia/church is never used again. It disappears from the narrative. The next time we see the church being referred to is in Rev.19:6-8 where as the bride, she is receiving her fine linen white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb, which takes place in heaven during the time of God's wrath. And the next time that we actually see the word church again, is in Rev.22:16 which is outside of the narrative in what would be the epilog. Coincidence? Not likely. The disuse of the word is a clue given to the reader of Revelation, which means that the church is removed at Rev.4:1. From that time forward, the word hagios/Saints is used, which is referring to those great tribulation saints who will not been believers prior to the church being gathered, but become believers during the time of God's wrath.

Hope this helps

It won't
She has "VERY SPECIAL,EXTRA SPICY, MEANING TO EVERY END TIME VERSE."
Nothing is as it appears.

 

[Absolutely]

Could I have the Chapter and verse that say "gathering of the church". Yes I am reading what you wrote. And I see you wrote "the gathering of the church" were do I find that? If you have given me the verse I apologize, I missed it and ask if you would please do so one more time.

Ok,what ,pray tell,do you think the rapture is???????

Its like asking "what do you mean by the ascention"?

 

[Absolutely]

There is not one place stating Satans Trib is Gods wrath
Rap Theory - Satans tribulation is considered "Gods Wrath" there is no difference, it is all Gods Wrath, which the church is not appointed to go.

There is not one of the verses on "Return or Coming or Lords Day etc" that is in conflict with another
Rap Theory - Return and Coming are not the same

No, we do not read Gods Word the same. I can see why you believe I have it all wrong.

More abstract hodge podge mess

 

[Absolutely]

BEFORE SATAN is cast to earth, there is a war going on in HEAVEN, and when Satan doesn't prevail, him and his angels are cast to earth.

DOES JESUS, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WAR IN HEAVEN, JUST STOP TO COME AND Rapture Theory you away?

Since you say you will be beheaded in the gt,why do you worry about 1 thes 4?..and mock jesus coming for his bride as "rap theory"

Serious heart problems have poisoned your bible views

 

[Absolutely]

HE HAS TOLD YOU TO BUILD YOUR ARK. AND IF YOU DO YOU WILL ESCAPE JUST LIKE NOAH DID DURING THE FLOOD.

YOUR ARK? THE FULL GOSPEL ARMOR TO WITHSTAND THE FLOOD OF LIES COMING FROM SATAN.


Lot was told to leave, Just like we are told to flee Jerusalem


The 5 wise virgins had "enough oil" to make it through
but the wise took oil in the vessels, with the lamps of them
1637 olive oil
figuratively the indwelling (empowering of the Holy Spirit

While all true believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, none can give their oil to someone else Mt 25:3-8. Each person must seek to find the Lord for themselves.
for healing the sick, for anointing the head and body

5547 Christos
the Anointed One, Messiah, Christ
from 5548

5548 chrio to anoint
to anoint by rubbing or pouring olive oil on someone to represent the flow (empowering) of the Holy Spirit

LOL
The wise went through nothing...THEY ESCAPED INTO THE MARRIAGE CHAMBER WITH JESUS
The FOOLS went through hell.

Again you get an f on unpacking verses

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Ok,what ,pray tell,do you think the rapture is???????

Its like asking "what do you mean by the ascention"?

Hello Brother. This post of yours made me think about how meaningless the rapture would be in a post-trib setting. What purpose would it serve to do a quick U-turn rapture at the second coming, completely bypassing the judgment seat of Christ and the marriage of the Lamb.

Until very recently I was not absolutely (pun intended) convinced of my end times view. But I always viewed post-trib rapture premillennialism as the worst option because it does not count for the many imminent return verses. Those are absolutely (double pun) fundamental in understanding the end times. Jesus tells us to be ready at all times, if post-trib rapture is true, there is no need to Watch for the return of Jesus because we know it couldn't happen today, we would first need to see the abomination of desolation, and alll the other signs.

If you read Zechariah 14 which I believe is about the second coming, you see the Jews who are escaping to the Valley are not transformed immediately in a blink of an eye? That should happen if the post-trib rapture was true.
The Lord is coming with His saints however, as heaven opens up in Revelation 19, how did they get there if the rapture is in revelation 20 and hasn't happened yet?

Too many holes to poke to the post-trib rapture theory. I believe this is causing an end times mania of sorts, many people are obsessed with finding who the antichrist is, consumed with prepping and hunkering down in their bunkers buying survival materials instead of preaching the Gospel as we are commanded.

The pre-trib rapture is very easy to prove and I believe whole-heartedly it is true. Praise God!

 

[DeighAnn]

Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks

Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars

Revelation 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

MESSAGE IS TO THE CHURCHES, BUT IT IS THE INDIVIDUAL WHO MUST HEAR, MUST OVERCOME

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried and ye shall have tribulation ten days be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
ONCE AGAIN, IT IS AN INDIVIDUL THAT MUST HEAR, AN INDIVIDUAL THE MUST OVERCOME. THE MESSAGES ARE TO THE SEVEN CHURCHES AND WITH THIS WE CAN KNOW THE "CHURCHES" WILL BE HERE.

Revelation 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges

Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Revelation 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
AGAIN, HE, AN INDIVIDUAL MUST HEAR AND OVERCOME

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Revelation 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works and the last to be more than the first.

Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
WHAT IS A SPIRITUAL ADULTERY? BEING THE FUTURE BRIDE OF CHRIST AND INSTEAD OF BEING FAITHFUL AND WAITING PATIENTLY FOR HIM, GOING OFF WITH ANOTHER, COMMITING TO HIM, GIVING YOUR LOVE AND WORSHIP TO HIM, NOT REMAINING A VIRGIN, HAVING HIS CHILD AND GIVING SUCK

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication and she repented not.

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
ANOTHER PLACE WHICH TELLS US WHERE THE CHURCES ARE DURING SATANS TRIBULATION, THE WOMAN, THE HARLOT

Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
WILL GIVE TO EVERYONE, AND ALL THE CHURCHES...NOT SOME, OR PARTS, ALL

Revelation 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak I will put upon you none other burden.

Revelation 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers even as I received of my Father.
AS JESUS RECEIVED OF THE FATHER

Revelation 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

Revelation 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.



the 4 horns/4 hidden dynasties (educational, political, economical, and religion). There will be a one world order.

 

[Absolutely]

I married the two verses because "be absent from the body (corruptible terrestrial mortal flesh) is to be present with the Lord (in the incorruptible celestial spiritual either mortal or immortal body) , the body man can't kill (so no need to fear this death), yet still a body and soul God can kill. I hope that explains my understanding of corruptible in its context.


When flesh body man dies, spiritual body man goes back to heaven to be with the Lord.
The flesh goes into the dirt and rots, and the soul puts on it spiritual body and is present with the Lord, on one side of the gulf or the other.

And soon it will be : On earth as it is in heaven.
Right now, a gulf that can't be crossed in heaven,
And on the Lords Day, a river that can't be crossed on earth.


And those are who return with Christ those on the right side of the gulf. The rest get here when the host of heaven is dissolved.

If there were to be a "rapture" of the church before Satan Tribulation, Satan could not deceive anyone into thinking he is Christ returned, because they all would have witnessed the biggest ever all time super unbelievable miracle that will ever have been, not to mention EVERYONE missing friends or loved ones or rulers, or bosses. The world would plunge into chaos for years. Satan shows up and tries to convince anyone of anything and they are like "fly me away", but he can't compete with that, I don't care how good he talks.

All worship the beast.
Every man woman and child,free and in bond.
It says power was given to the ac to overcome the church.

So,those left behnd,as you declare over yourself,will be executed right away.

Apparently,it is as if you either despise 1 thes 4 or believe there is no rapture at all to despise.

 

[DeighAnn]

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.