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PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#21
Apr 22, 2013
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#21
John146 said:
Lucifer was an annointed cherub, different than an angel. Both are created beings but for different purposes.

Bonus...angels don’t have wings and are always male.🤓
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Satan is almost certainly a type of Angel. Strongs Def. for Cherub:
kerub: probably an order of angelic beings
Original Word: כְּרוּב
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: kerub
Phonetic Spelling: (ker-oob')
Definition: probably an order of angelic beings

2 Corinthians 11:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

Also, if satan is a type of angel, the description we have of other cherubs is that they have wings.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#23
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
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#23
PennEd said:
Satan is almost certainly a type of Angel. Strongs Def. for Cherub:
kerub: probably an order of angelic beings
Original Word: כְּרוּב
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: kerub
Phonetic Spelling: (ker-oob')
Definition: probably an order of angelic beings

2 Corinthians 11:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

Also, if satan is a type of angel, the description we have of other cherubs is that they have wings.
Click to expand...
He has to transform himself. He is not an angel. Just sticking with the Bible, there are many types of sons of God including angels, cherubims, seraphims, etc..they’re all different and serve different purposes.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#24
Apr 22, 2013
13,586
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#24
John146 said:
He has to transform himself. He is not an angel. Just sticking with the Bible, there are many types of sons of God including angels, cherubims, seraphims, etc..they’re all different and serve different purposes.
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They are ranks of angels yes, and even different types. That doesn't mean they aren't angels.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#26
Apr 22, 2013
13,586
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#26
John146 said:
Is that scriptural or man made doctrine?
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You have the same Scriptures as me. I already showed you where the word Cherub very likely means an order of angelic beings. Virtually ALL prominent commentators throughout history note that satan is a type of angel.

You want me say that it's conceivable that satan is NOT a type of angel? Sure it's conceivable. But unlikely that he is not.

Now how bout YOU retract that it is definitive that he is not an angel?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#27
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
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#27
PennEd said:
You have the same Scriptures as me. I already showed you where the word Cherub very likely means an order of angelic beings. Virtually ALL prominent commentators throughout history note that satan is a type of angel.

You want me say that it's conceivable that satan is NOT a type of angel? Sure it's conceivable. But unlikely that he is not.

Now how bout YOU retract that it is definitive that he is not an angel?
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You’ve posted Scripture? One verse stating Satan transforms himself into an angel of light doesn’t prove anything but that Satan has to transform himself because he’s not an angel.

And you know I couldn’t care less about “prominent commentators,” their thoughts on Scripture. I’ll stick with the words of God.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#28
Apr 22, 2013
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#28
John146 said:
You’ve posted Scripture? One verse stating Satan transforms himself into an angel of light doesn’t prove anything but that Satan has to transform himself because he’s not an angel.
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Nope. Gave you the definition of what a Cherub was.

Why did you ignore that?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#29
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
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#29
PennEd said:
Nope. Gave you the definition of what a Cherub was.

Why did you ignore that?
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I know what a cherub is and his duties to cover and oversee. Yes, they have wings. They are sons of God. They are not angels according to Scripture.

Winged angels on Christmas trees is false.😉
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#30
Apr 22, 2013
13,586
9,104
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#30
John146 said:
I know what a cherub is and his duties to cover and oversee. Yes, they have wings. They are sons of God. They are not angels according to Scripture.

Winged angels on Christmas trees is false.😉
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YOU, say they are not angelic beings. The Bible doesn't say that.

I gave you the definition FROM Hebrew. Just because you reject it doesn't mean it isn't true.
You are this stubborn as to not even give the possibility that Cherubim are angelic beings?
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#31
Jun 30, 2015
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#31
Well then... how many cherubs can dance on the head of a pin?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#32
Jan 13, 2016
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#32
PennEd said:
YOU, say they are not angelic beings. The Bible doesn't say that.

I gave you the definition FROM Hebrew. Just because you reject it doesn't mean it isn't true.
You are this stubborn as to not even give the possibility that Cherubim are angelic beings?
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What we do know from Scripture is that angels, cherubims and seraphims are all sons of God. Notice it doesn’t say, and all the angels...

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#33
Apr 22, 2013
13,586
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#33
John146 said:
What we do know from Scripture is that angels, cherubims and seraphims are all sons of God. Notice it doesn’t say, and all the angels...

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
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What's that got to do with the definition of Cherub in Hebrew,

You DO realize that the Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, NOT KJV English don't you?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#34
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
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#34
PennEd said:
What's that got to do with the definition of Cherub in Hebrew,

You DO realize that the Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, NOT KJV English don't you?
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Yeah, I’ll go with probably...

I’m done discussing this brother. It’s not worth it, ok?
 
G

garee

Banned
#36
Mar 28, 2016
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#36
VineyardsOfEngedi said:
Really they don't? Where can I read on this?
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They are ministering spirit. Spirits of truth sent (as if by wings) to strengthen those in order to finish the unseen work of God. They have no flesh, no outward form as word or tongue of God having the power of life or death . They can move a person to action. Or work out the request.

We can see that work of two working as one. The father pouring out the wrath as suffering to the soul of the Son unto death submitting and crying out for strength .Three times they performed that work to show how the unseen messengers work strengthening inner man .

Matthew 26:37-39 King James Version (KJV) Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

The father sent the spirits of truth, as unseen messengers. . angels

One thing because the doctrines of men differ from the doctrines of God. It would seem important as to how we can know or hear the differences.? What kind of prescription do we have so we can we follow and know they are inspired of God and not men earthly ?

We can as a blessing search that out in Deuteronomy..

Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
 
V

VineyardsOfEngedi

Well-known member
#37
Nov 26, 2019
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#37
DB7 said:
Not sure where you stand with your familiarity with the Bible itself, but that would be your foundation (sorry, I assumed that you were somewhat already versed in it).
That has to be your starting point, because all other discussions are derived from, and based on this one source.
The topic of Christology & Soteriology would not exist if it weren't for the Bible.
Familiarize yourself with the Bible, then see who's views correspond to what you've read and understood, from both it and life itself.
This is the process that we're all going through, ...and yes, you're right, it does get confusing and leads to indecisiveness at times.
None of us here have our whole theology worked out with complete comprehensiveness, soundness and cohesiveness.
If you decide to take up the Bible, which I profoundly hope that you do, it will be, without exception, a life-long endeavor...as it is meant to be!
Good luck!
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Yes, I suppose it is a life long endeavor, especially eternity. I think we'll still be learning then.
 
V

VineyardsOfEngedi

Well-known member
#38
Nov 26, 2019
899
297
63
#38
garee said:
They are ministering spirit. Spirits of truth sent (as if by wings) to strengthen those in order to finish the unseen work of God. They have no flesh, no outward form as word or tongue of God having the power of life or death . They can move a person to action. Or work out the request.

We can see that work of two working as one. The father pouring out the wrath as suffering to the soul of the Son unto death submitting and crying out for strength .Three times they performed that work to show how the unseen messengers work strengthening inner man .

Matthew 26:37-39 King James Version (KJV) Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

The father sent the spirits of truth, as unseen messengers. . angels

One thing because the doctrines of men differ from the doctrines of God. It would seem important as to how we can know or hear the differences.? What kind of prescription do we have so we can we follow and know they are inspired of God and not men earthly ?

We can as a blessing search that out in Deuteronomy..

Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
Click to expand...
Yes, I've read that angels are ministering spirits, never really considered much about their composition or that cherubs were not angels, idk. I will look into it.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#39
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#39
VineyardsOfEngedi said:
...or that cherubs were not angels...
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Whoever told you that the Cherubim (singular Cherub) were not angels misled you.

They are a very special class of angels, since it is their privilege to always surround the throne of God and praise Him.

Among the angelic beings there are (a) Cherubim, (b) Seraphim, (c) archangels, (c) holy angels, (d) evil angels, and (f) demons. And in both the classes of angels (holy and evil) there are hierarchies of authority. Michael is the archangel who is over all the holy angels, and Satan (formerly Lucifer) is the prince or king of the evil angels and devils (or demons). And there are in fact huge numbers of angels in both groups.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#40
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
113
#40
Nehemiah6 said:
Whoever told you that the Cherubim (singular Cherub) were not angels misled you.

They are a very special class of angels, since it is their privilege to always surround the throne of God and praise Him.

Among the angelic beings there are (a) Cherubim, (b) Seraphim, (c) archangels, (c) holy angels, (d) evil angels, and (f) demons. And in both the classes of angels (holy and evil) there are hierarchies of authority. Michael is the archangel who is over all the holy angels, and Satan (formerly Lucifer) is the prince or king of the evil angels and devils (or demons). And there are in fact huge numbers of angels in both groups.
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Where do you find that cherubs are angels? You have to go outside Scripture to argue this. They are all sons of God, but all angels? I’m not seeing it in Scripture.
 
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