Not By Works

[Whispered]

The early church didn't believe those doctrines. Neither do I. And not because I was taught to not believe them but because I spent years reading the Bible without the leaven of those ridiculous Theologian's teachings so that when I did learn about those teachings I instantly recognized them as being false.

Then why under God's Heaven do you now argue on their behalf?

 

[Hevosmies]

And yet, Jesus said no one will take the saved from His hand.No one. Not even we can remove ourselves from His hand.
Jesus died to take the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross. That whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but shall have immortal life.

Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"
Answer: First, the term Christian must be defined. A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer or walked down an aisle or been raised in a Christian family. While each of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are not what makes a Christian. A Christian is a person who has fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior and therefore possesses the Holy Spirit (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8–9).

So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation? It’s a crucially important question. Perhaps the best way to answer it is to examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation and to study what losing salvation would entail:

A Christian is a new creation. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). A Christian is not simply an “improved” version of a person; a Christian is an entirely new creature. He is “in Christ.” For a Christian to lose salvation, the new creation would have to be destroyed.

A Christian is redeemed. “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:18–19). The word redeemed refers to a purchase being made, a price being paid. We were purchased at the cost of Christ’s death. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have to revoke His purchase of the individual for whom He paid with the precious blood of Christ.

A Christian is justified. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). To justify is to declare righteous. All those who receive Jesus as Savior are “declared righteous” by God. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and “un-declare” what He had previously declared. Those absolved of guilt would have to be tried again and found guilty. God would have to reverse the sentence handed down from the divine bench.

A Christian is promised eternal life. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is the promise of spending forever in heaven with God. God promises, “Believe and you will have eternal life.” For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be redefined. The Christian is promised to live forever. Does eternal not mean “eternal”?

A Christian is marked by God and sealed by the Spirit. “You also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory” (Ephesians 1:13–14). At the moment of faith, the new Christian is marked and sealed with the Spirit, who was promised to act as a deposit to guarantee the heavenly inheritance. The end result is that God’s glory is praised. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to erase the mark, withdraw the Spirit, cancel the deposit, break His promise, revoke the guarantee, keep the inheritance, forego the praise, and lessen His glory.

A Christian is guaranteed glorification. “Those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). According to Romans 5:1, justification is ours at the moment of faith. According to Romans 8:30, glorification comes with justification. All those whom God justifies are promised to be glorified. This promise will be fulfilled when Christians receive their perfect resurrection bodies in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.

A Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Christ would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation is the gift of God, and God’s gifts are “irrevocable” (Romans 11:29). A Christian cannot be un-newly created. The redeemed cannot be unpurchased. Eternal life cannot be temporary. God cannot renege on His Word. Scripture says that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).

Two common objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation concern these experiential issues: 1) What about Christians who live in a sinful, unrepentant lifestyle? 2) What about Christians who reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem with these objections is the assumption that everyone who calls himself a “Christian” has actually been born again. The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a state of continual, unrepentant sin (1 John 3:6). The Bible also says that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he was never truly a Christian (1 John 2:19). He may have been religious, he may have put on a good show, but he was never born again by the power of God. “By their fruit you will recognize them” (Matthew 7:16). The redeemed of God belong “to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God” (Romans 7:4).

Nothing can separate a child of God from the Father’s love (Romans 8:38–39). Nothing can remove a Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28–29). God guarantees eternal life and maintains the salvation He has given us. The Good Shepherd searches for the lost sheep, and, “when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home” (Luke 15:5–6). The lamb is found, and the Shepherd gladly bears the burden; our Lord takes full responsibility for bringing the lost one safely home.

Jude 24–25 further emphasizes the goodness and faithfulness of our Savior: “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”

Hahaha! You used gotquestions which is that pesky TULIP believing site to prove your point. Gotta love it. Atleast those evil calvinists are right on this one right? Thats where eternal security originates from, the Reformation. Before that it was all medievel catholicism MOSTLY

 

[VCO]

Then that means the Galatians were never saved, because they did not remain. But we know that isn't true because Paul said they were saved. This shows us you're misunderstanding 1 John 2:19.

NOT EVERYONE THAT CALLS THEMSELVES A DISCIPLE IS SAVED. Disciple means temporary follower. THEY ARE NOT CHILDREN of GOD until they RECEIVE HIM as LORD permanently, there is how they KNOW HIM. Knowing HIM as LORD AND MASTER of our LIVES, is BORN AGAIN, or Entering by way of the NARROW GATE. You are counting disciples, NOT BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS!

Matthew 7:13-23 (NIV)
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

John 6:66-67 (NIV)
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

1 John 2:19 (NIV)
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us;
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.


ONLY BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS ARE SAVED, and THEY WILL KNOW they are Born Again, and KNOW HIM.

Now if this is perceived by you as pure foolishness, HERE IS THE REASON:

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NIV)
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Whispered]

Hahaha! You used gotquestions which is that pesky TULIP believing site to prove your point. Gotta love it. Atleast those evil calvinists are right on this one right? Thats where eternal security originates from, the Reformation. Before that it was all medievel catholicism MOSTLY

That's why that "pesky TULIP believing site" carries a video and a textual article that refutes TULIP.

Oh, and there is this. GQ's Statement of Faith.
Excerpt:
Section 7: Salvation
We believe that salvation is a gift of God's grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross (Ephesians 2:8-9). Christ's death fully accomplished justification through faith and redemption from sin. Christ died in our place (Romans 5:8-9) and bore our sins in His own body (1 Peter 2:24). On the third day after His death, Jesus physically rose again, demonstrating His victory over sin and death (Romans 14:9).

We believe salvation is received by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Good works and obedience are results of salvation, not requirements for salvation. Due to the greatness, sufficiency, and perfection of Christ's sacrifice, all those who have truly received Christ as Savior are eternally secure in salvation, kept by God's power, secured and sealed in Christ forever (John 6:37-40; 10:27-30; Romans 8:1, 38-39; Ephesians 1:13-14; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 24). Just as salvation cannot be earned by good works, neither does it need good works to be maintained or sustained. Good works and changed lives are the inevitable results of salvation (James 2).

 

[Whispered]

NOT EVERYONE THAT CALLS THEMSELVES A DISCIPLE IS SAVED. Disciple means temporary follower. THEY ARE NOT CHILDREN of GOD until they RECEIVE HIM as LORD permanently, there is how they KNOW HIM. Knowing HIM as LORD AND MASTER of our LIVES, is BORN AGAIN, or Entering by way of the NARROW GATE. You are counting disciples, NOT BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS!

Matthew 7:13-23 (NIV)
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

John 6:66-67 (NIV)
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

1 John 2:19 (NIV)
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us;
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.


ONLY BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS ARE SAVED, and THEY WILL KNOW they are Born Again, and KNOW HIM.

Now if this is perceived by you as pure foolishness, HERE IS THE REASON:

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NIV)
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Please provide the source wherein "Disciple" is defined as "temporary follower".

 

[Judges1318]

I didn't say and it doesn't say, one can't lose faith to believe.

You're going to have to make up your mind if you believe TULIP, or not.
Calvinism's TULIP says if you lose faith in Christ you were never saved to begin with.
Nowadays, it is being argued that is wrong and that even if you stop believing you are still saved. So it sounds like even you don't believe TULIP doctrine.

It says God's free gift of grace that leads to salvation can never be revoked. That means, even if someone who had faith falls out of faith, God's grace keeps them secure. Because otherwise? A person's choice would be superior to God's grace.

No, no, no. That's not what it says. What Romans 11 says is even though the nation of Israel has rejected Christ the gifts and calling of God promised to them through Abraham has not been revoked. He can't revoke them because God made a promise to Abraham about that. Prophecy tells us that one day they will believe in Christ and walk in the gifts and calling promised to them. Until then, countless Israelites are dying in their unbelief and going to hell and do not have the grace of God. Read the chapter and you will see that is what is being said in the chapter. The gifts and calling being irrevocable does not mean that you continue to be saved by the grace of God despite your unbelief.

 

[Judges1318]

Maybe consider reading this:

Galatians
Theme
Paul writes to counter the claims of legalistic Judaizers who were telling the Galatian believers that they must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses in order to be saved.
Overview
In the whole Bible, there is no more passionate, comprehensive, yet concise statement of the truth of the gospel than Galatians. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone. No work can earn salvation. The NKJV Study Bible says the apostle Paul reveals in this letter the arrogance of people who want to earn their salvation by works that can easily be identified; amounting to a desertion of the gospel’s truth and a turning away from God. We can stand justified before God only through faith in Jesus Christ; Paul emphasizes repeatedly that nothing else will save us. Paul also addresses themes dealing with the Christian life; living out the new freedom believers possess in Christ.

Okay.....but where does it say that the letter to the Galatians says a believer can not lose their justification in Christ if they stop believing in Christ?

 

[Whispered]

Okay.....but where does it say that the letter to the Galatians says a believer can not lose their justification in Christ if they stop believing in Christ?

The onus is on you to prove there are scriptures that state that. We've already proven Galatians does not say that. And was not drafted to the church in Galatia so as to communicate that.

 

[Judges1318]

What you're missing is that the son returned to faith in the father and there was a celebration. Not a re-do of all that happens when the sinner repents and is reborn.
The prodigal son was forever , everywhere he went, his father's son.

He disinherited himself by leaving the father's household. He had to come back to the father to have the inheritance.

You can't leave the household of faith and still be part of the household of faith.
Only those who eat the Passover Lamb and stay in the house are 'passed over' by the destroying angel.

 

[Judges1318]

The onus is on you to prove there are scriptures that state that. We've already proven Galatians does not say that. And was not drafted to the church in Galatia so as to communicate that.

Galatians 5:4 KJV
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

 

[Whispered]

You're going to have to make up your mind if you believe TULIP, or not.
Calvinism's TULIP says if you lose faith in Christ you were never saved to begin with.
Nowadays, it is being argued that is wrong and that even if you stop believing you are still saved. So it sounds like even you don't believe TULIP doctrine.


No, no, no. That's not what it says. What Romans 11 says is even though the nation of Israel has rejected Christ the gifts and calling of God promised to them through Abraham has not been revoked. He can't revoke them because God made a promise to Abraham about that. Prophecy tells us that one day they will believe in Christ and walk in the gifts and calling promised to them. Until then, countless Israelites are dying in their unbelief and going to hell and do not have the grace of God. Read the chapter and you will see that is what is being said in the chapter. The gifts and calling being irrevocable does not mean that you continue to be saved by the grace of God despite your unbelief.

The Book of Romans chapter 11:29


Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(29) Without repentance.--Not to be revoked or withdrawn, not even to he regretted.


Matthew Henry Commentary
11:22-32 Of all judgments, spiritual judgments are the sorest; of these the apostle is here speaking. The restoration of the Jews is, in the course of things, far less improbable than the call of the Gentiles to be the children of Abraham; and though others now possess these privileges, it will not hinder their being admitted again. By rejecting the gospel, and by their indignation at its being preached to the Gentiles, the Jews were become enemies to God; yet they are still to be favoured for the sake of their pious fathers. Though at present they are enemies to the gospel, for their hatred to the Gentiles; yet, when God's time is come, that will no longer exist, and God's love to their fathers will be remembered. True grace seeks not to confine God's favour. Those who find mercy themselves, should endeavour that through their mercy others also may obtain mercy. Not that the Jews will be restored to have their priesthood, and temple, and ceremonies again; an end is put to all these; but they are to be brought to believe in Christ, the true become one sheep-fold with the Gentiles, under Christ the Great Shepherd. The captivities of Israel, their dispersion, and their being shut out from the church, are emblems of the believer's corrections for doing wrong; and the continued care of the Lord towards that people, and the final mercy and blessed restoration intended for them, show the patience and love of God.

 

[Whispered]

He disinherited himself by leaving the father's household. He had to come back to the father to have the inheritance.

You can't leave the household of faith and still be part of the household of faith.
Only those who eat the Passover Lamb and stay in the house are 'passed over' by the destroying angel.

The metaphor in Exodus is to communicate, those who are under the blood of the lamb shall not taste death.

 

[Whispered]

Galatians 5:4 KJV
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

Excellent. That verse reiterates what Paul was telling the legalistic Judaizers. Their believing the works of the law of Moses believe they are justified by the law of Moses. Which is to say, they are fallen from grace because God's free irrevocable gift of grace is what led to the final sacrifice for all sins of the world eternally; Jesus and the cross. Jesus being the last lamb to be sacrificed for all sins and the cross being the last altar upon which that sacrifice would be offered for all people for all time.

 

[Whispered]

You're going to have to make up your mind if you believe TULIP, or not.
Calvinism's TULIP says if you lose faith in Christ you were never saved to begin with.
Nowadays, it is being argued that is wrong and that even if you stop believing you are still saved. So it sounds like even you don't believe TULIP doctrine.

You misread my post if you think I equivocate between believing in TULIP or not.

Adding that part to your former posting , as I missed answering it in my zeal to post to your second part of your post.

 

[Judges1318]

The Book of Romans chapter 11:29


Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(29) Without repentance.--Not to be revoked or withdrawn, not even to he regretted.


Matthew Henry Commentary
11:22-32 Of all judgments, spiritual judgments are the sorest; of these the apostle is here speaking. The restoration of the Jews is, in the course of things, far less improbable than the call of the Gentiles to be the children of Abraham; and though others now possess these privileges, it will not hinder their being admitted again. By rejecting the gospel, and by their indignation at its being preached to the Gentiles, the Jews were become enemies to God; yet they are still to be favoured for the sake of their pious fathers. Though at present they are enemies to the gospel, for their hatred to the Gentiles; yet, when God's time is come, that will no longer exist, and God's love to their fathers will be remembered. True grace seeks not to confine God's favour. Those who find mercy themselves, should endeavour that through their mercy others also may obtain mercy. Not that the Jews will be restored to have their priesthood, and temple, and ceremonies again; an end is put to all these; but they are to be brought to believe in Christ, the true become one sheep-fold with the Gentiles, under Christ the Great Shepherd. The captivities of Israel, their dispersion, and their being shut out from the church, are emblems of the believer's corrections for doing wrong; and the continued care of the Lord towards that people, and the final mercy and blessed restoration intended for them, show the patience and love of God.

So, unbelieving Jews who have died in their unbelief are really, in actuality, saved despite their unbelief? I hope that's not what you're wanting to believe the chapter is saying.

Rather it's saying that one day the nation of Israel as a whole will believe and be saved because God did not revoke that promise from them despite Israelites being lost and in unbelief at this present time.

 

[Whispered]

So, unbelieving Jews who have died in their unbelief are really, in actuality, saved despite their unbelief? I hope that's not what you're wanting to believe the chapter is saying.

Where did I even intimate that?

 

[Judges1318]

NOT EVERYONE THAT CALLS THEMSELVES A DISCIPLE IS SAVED. Disciple means temporary follower. THEY ARE NOT CHILDREN of GOD until they RECEIVE HIM as LORD permanently, there is how they KNOW HIM. Knowing HIM as LORD AND MASTER of our LIVES, is BORN AGAIN, or Entering by way of the NARROW GATE. You are counting disciples, NOT BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS!

Matthew 7:13-23 (NIV)
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

John 6:66-67 (NIV)
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

1 John 2:19 (NIV)
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us;
but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.


ONLY BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS ARE SAVED, and THEY WILL KNOW they are Born Again, and KNOW HIM.

Now if this is perceived by you as pure foolishness, HERE IS THE REASON:

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NIV)
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Galatians says God knew them.

Galatians 4:9 KJV
"now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God"

They are true believers, being known by God, not fake believers to whom Christ will say, "I never knew you" to. Yet these true believers fell away in unbelief from justification in Christ to justification by the law. Which Calvinism says is impossible for true believers to do. Obviously, Calvin was wrong about that. His is a later doctrine brought into the church that the early church fathers, before the Catholic Church, did not believe and did not teach.

 

[Judges1318]

Where did I even intimate that?

Just explain how it is that since the promises made to the nation of Israel have not been revoked that means the person who stops believing in Christ is still saved despite that unbelief.

 

[Whispered]

Just explain how the promises made to the nation of Israel not being revoked means the person who stops believing in Christ is still saved despite that unbelief.

You brought the Galatians. I'm not responsible to support your premise in any way.

 

[Judges1318]

Then why under God's Heaven do you now argue on their behalf?

I do not argue on behalf of the false theologians who brought the once saved always saved doctrine into the church that the early church fathers, before the official Catholic Church, did not teach or believe.