Purpose

[DB7]

There have always been Holy Spirit filled womaen……..Sorry some deny them.

Remember, in the sight of our Father there are no men and not women, just souls…………..People tend to see and preach only what they want to without hearing and understanding all of the Word.

Hello JJ, in the eyes of God there definitely Men and Women, Paul makes this very clear in several ways, and in several contexts (Man is the head of woman, Woman was made for man, Woman must pray with head covered and not man, Woman was cursed differently than man after the fall, Woman must not have authority over man, etc.. )
The complete context of what you were referring to, is clearly in the scope of redemption. Paul was refuting the Judaizers for the first 2 chapters, then to sum up who is eligible for salvation, the circumcised or uncircumcised, he then made his point about the insignificance of external statuses or attributes. He covered a broad gamut just to get the point across, that, for the sake of argument, he even could've said, young & old, rich and poor, tall and short, etc...
Don't forget, if there is no gender in God's eyes to the extent that you say,, then homosexuality is not a sin, is it?
Plus, slavery was not abolished either, as we know that Paul spoke more than once about how master and slaves should conduct themselves before the Lord (especially Onesime and Philemon), even though Paul included 'slave or free' in his enumeration of who God does not regard their status.

 

[DB7]

Well, God didn't say anything to you, its just your own delusion.

Walk by Faith, don't walk by your senses and feelings.

God has spoken to us in His word, that is God's way of tellings us things.

Alot of Christians do this, yet they don't realize that there hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked by nature, they can't trust themselves, this is why you must live by what God has said in His Word.

God never put a verse in the bible that says for example:
Genesis 37:40 "look around you, look at each and everyone of them. And then He said "a life lived outside your purpose for existence, is a life lived ineffectively, And then He said "a life lived outside your purpose for existence, is a life lived ineffectively."

I cant find it bro.

George Muller said "if i'm following voices and impressions, then i am a most deluded person."

Flint, if I recall correctly, you're from the Reformed Camp, and if so, I assume that you're a Cessationist?
If so, I agree with you that nothing can be added to scripture for sure, and that this is stated in scripture at the threat of an anathema (Rev.).
But, are you against people receiving inspired thoughts from God, just for the sake of edification. I certainly am not against it (nor am I a Cessationist or Reformed, just for the record).
For, clearly Mpopi was not attempting to add to scripture, he was just stating that God spoke to him on how to regard his humanity as God intended, and to abide accordingly. A principle that I can accept as beneficial, no problem.
But, I for other reasons, question the authenticity of his inspiration, which were for the reasons that I stated in my first Post on this Thread.
His seemingly complacent attitude towards women having authority in scripture makes me question his insights into scripture, and the audacity to claim that such a simple and elementary thought came from God, as opposed to just being a clever insight that he induced on his own. For we all do this all the time, having insights that just dawn on us out of nowhere, even non-christians like Ghandi and Dhali-Lama spoke many truthful and edifying statements (not antagonistic to scripture), that clearly were not inspired.
But again, you seemed to protest Mpopi's claim simply on the grounds that he was attempting to add to scripture, which I'm not sure where that suspicion came from?
Again, you're not against God still answering prayers for wisdom, truth and things pertaining to salvation are you, or about one's marriage, vocation, investments or life in general?

 

[Dino246]

Hmm pretty sure your just making stuff up, if you want provide scriptures where God speaks in audible voices to the saints, as in word for word speech, like this guy claimed.
I don't need to provide Scripture to back up a claim that I haven't made.

Even if He did, it would be pretty rare, since he has given us his word and it's generally stupid to follow voices and attach God's name to it.

Did he claim that this is a regular thing for him? No.
Did he say he followed it? No.

Perhaps next time you should read more carefully and respond to what is actually said.

 

[Flint321]

Flint, if I recall correctly, you're from the Reformed Camp, and if so, I assume that you're a Cessationist?
If so, I agree with you that nothing can be added to scripture for sure, and that this is stated in scripture at the threat of an anathema (Rev.).
But, are you against people receiving inspired thoughts from God, just for the sake of edification. I certainly am not against it (nor am I a Cessationist or Reformed, just for the record).
For, clearly Mpopi was not attempting to add to scripture, he was just stating that God spoke to him on how to regard his humanity as God intended, and to abide accordingly. A principle that I can accept as beneficial, no problem.
But, I for other reasons, question the authenticity of his inspiration, which were for the reasons that I stated in my first Post on this Thread.
His seemingly complacent attitude towards women having authority in scripture makes me question his insights into scripture, and the audacity to claim that such a simple and elementary thought came from God, as opposed to just being a clever insight that he induced on his own. For we all do this all the time, having insights that just dawn on us out of nowhere, even non-christians like Ghandi and Dhali-Lama spoke many truthful and edifying statements (not antagonistic to scripture), that clearly were not inspired.
But again, you seemed to protest Mpopi's claim simply on the grounds that he was attempting to add to scripture, which I'm not sure where that suspicion came from?
Again, you're not against God still answering prayers for wisdom, truth and things pertaining to salvation are you, or about one's marriage, vocation, investments or life in general?

Hi, DB7 hope your going well, i am a reformed Christian and i believe in the doctrines of grace and believe it to be the full faith, indeed the only faith. (not that people who don't believe it arnt saved or christian, but that their theology is therefore half good and half sinful, in huge error you could say).


Well, after reading the post and what i wrote, i can see that i judged things to quickly and didn't think of every possibility, so indeed i am wrong on some things and was too quick judge.

BUT

I still think God most likely didn't speak in direct communication word for word to this Man or Woman, this seems most likely to be a dangerous delusion and i think that if you thought otherwise your probably an unwise person, i would be highly suspicious of such a person that claims that God is speaking direct revelation to them and this is what God said... etc... etc...etc....

That type of behavior can often be demonic and irreverent, so im not gonna jump on that bandwagon so fast, i would definitely have a critical attitude against such claims, im going to be highly suspicious of people claiming direct revelations from God.

Now i do admit that i was wrong in thinking God can't speak directly, He can and for this im sorry, i was wrong about that, for example in Acts:13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

So yes i was wrong God can speak directly, BUT it would be a rare thing i presume and its hard not to judge the poster right off the bat as being some crazy nut job. (which he could be)

 

[Dino246]

"Lady pastor" you said? No such thing in the Bible. That is your first clue that the Church you were in was unbiblical in the way its operated. That is forbidden, ...

Scriptures: 1 Corinthians 14:34-35; 1 Timothy 2:12

There isn't a single passage of Scripture that forbids a woman from being a pastor. The verses you cited certainly don't; the word "pastor" doesn't appear in either, nor in their context.

 

[tourist]

Well, God didn't say anything to you, its just your own delusion.

Walk by Faith, don't walk by your senses and feelings.

God has spoken to us in His word, that is God's way of tellings us things.

Alot of Christians do this, yet they don't realize that there hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked by nature, they can't trust themselves, this is why you must live by what God has said in His Word.

God never put a verse in the bible that says for example:
Genesis 37:40 "look around you, look at each and everyone of them. And then He said "a life lived outside your purpose for existence, is a life lived ineffectively, And then He said "a life lived outside your purpose for existence, is a life lived ineffectively."

I cant find it bro.

George Muller said "if i'm following voices and impressions, then i am a most deluded person."

Perhaps the reason that you couldn't find it is because it was a private conversation between God and that member.

 

[Flint321]

Perhaps the reason that you couldn't find it is because it was a private conversation between God and that member.

You've got a point there, could be true.

Also could not be true and a stupid person following voices and claiming its from God, could also be true

 

[DB7]

Hi, DB7 hope your going well, i am a reformed Christian and i believe in the doctrines of grace and believe it to be the full faith, indeed the only faith. (not that people who don't believe it arnt saved or christian, but that their theology is therefore half good and half sinful, in huge error you could say).


Well, after reading the post and what i wrote, i can see that i judged things to quickly and didn't think of every possibility, so indeed i am wrong on some things and was too quick judge.

BUT

I still think God most likely didn't speak in direct communication word for word to this Man or Woman, this seems most likely to be a dangerous delusion and i think that if you thought otherwise your probably an unwise person, i would be highly suspicious of such a person that claims that God is speaking direct revelation to them and this is what God said... etc... etc...etc....

That type of behavior can often be demonic and irreverent, so im not gonna jump on that bandwagon so fast, i would definitely have a critical attitude against such claims, im going to be highly suspicious of people claiming direct revelations from God.

Now i do admit that i was wrong in thinking God can't speak directly, He can and for this im sorry, i was wrong about that, for example in Acts:13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

So yes i was wrong God can speak directly, BUT it would be a rare thing i presume and its hard not to judge the poster right off the bat as being some crazy nut job. (which he could be)

Understood Flint, and the passage that you quoted was a very good example, it seems that we both agree on the possibility of it, but also of its rarity. And, thus, we seem to be both very doubtful that Mpopi received his thoughts directly from God, also.
Thank you for your candor and honesty, I hope that Mpopi appreciates our stance as not being abusive or as a ridicule, but as a sincere and sober warning!
Thanks again Flint!

 

[morefaithrequired]

Can someone tell my wife she's not the boss?

 

[tourist]

You've got a point there, could be true.
,
Also could not be true and a stupid person following voices and claiming its from God, could also be true

I talk to God all day long as in a real conversation so I have no reason to not believe that God spoke to this member. God speaks to all of us but not everyone listens. The member who wrote the OP is not stupid either and I find the account to be credible, irregardless of whether or not the pastor is a woman.

 

[DB7]

There isn't a single passage of Scripture that forbids a woman from being a pastor. The verses you cited certainly don't; the word "pastor" doesn't appear in either, nor in their context.

No Dino, not specifically pastor, but having authority is the office of a presbyter/bishop or elder, which, in certain denominations, is the pastor, priest, padre/father, cardinal, minister, etc, as opposed to a deacon (which women are permitted to be)
You must be aware of the biblical hierarchy that Paul on several occasions defines between man & woman, no?
Aren't these indications of the proper leadership structure in the Church?
Not to mention the Monarchy, Judges and Priests, all men (exceptions way too few to mention, plus the infamy around these exceptions i.e. Deborah and Athaliah).
You are in favour of women leaders in the Church (Egalitarian vs Complimentarian)?

 

[dcontroversal]

Yeah, right off, I knew this was just gonna be another Thread bashing women in the Ministry.

Just take your bible and rip out the parts in the O.T. and N.T. pertaining to the qualifications of a Bishop, or maybe the parts in the O.T. pertaining to the priests and who was allowed or not to stand and read the word.......nothing like 21st century watered down pseudo Christianity..............!!

 

[DB7]

I talk to God all day long as in a real conversation so I have no reason to not believe that God spoke to this member. God speaks to all of us but not everyone listens. The member who wrote the OP is not stupid either and I find the account to be credible, irregardless of whether or not the pastor is a woman.

Well, depending on your stance of Women's authority in the Church, it would impact your view on whether Mpopi was inspired or not. For as John146 said, why didn't God tell him about the defiance of his pastor, for example, which I believe would be a more critical issue?

 

[morefaithrequired]

backsliding or pragmatism? ok ok...The Word is the The Word....yes i get your point

 

[Flint321]

Thank you, i understand and i will be more careful, since God could have spoken to Him, i just highly, highly doubt it

I will definitely try to be more careful, thank you.

@Dino246

 

[Nehemiah6]

As the Lady pastor was sharing the word, God said to me, look around you, look at each and everyone of them.

Did you know that according to the New Testament only men can be pastors and teachers within the local church? And this is based upon what God has revealed, not what people imagine should be done.

 

[morefaithrequired]

its a patriarchal conspiracy!!
its a binary winery!
its an all male tale!
maybe she gives a good sermon
I wouldnt put it pastor

 

[Dino246]

No Dino, not specifically pastor, but having authority is the office of a presbyter/bishop or elder, which, in certain denominations, is the pastor, priest, padre/father, cardinal, minister, etc, as opposed to a deacon (which women are permitted to be)
You must be aware of the biblical hierarchy that Paul on several occasions defines between man & woman, no?
Aren't these indications of the proper leadership structure in the Church?
Not to mention the Monarchy, Judges and Priests, all men (exceptions way too few to mention, plus the infamy around these exceptions i.e. Deborah and Athaliah).
You are in favour of women leaders in the Church (Egalitarian vs Complimentarian)?

Respectfully, I've been around this rodeo quite a while. I've read every relevant verse many times. I've read many books on the subject and listened to many hours of teaching, on both sides. I've written on the subject for seminary classes. I respect your right to hold a different view, and unlike so many already in this thread, I don't need to denigrate those who disagree with me.

The word "pastor" simply is not the word used in any passage allegedly restricting women from leadership. Force-fitting a modern job title to a biblical term that already has a specific meaning is a fallacy of equivocation.

Ancient Israel is not the Church, and there is no "infamy" around Deborah. All her actions recorded in Scripture were honourable. Athalia is a completely different situation. Both passages are narrative, not didactic; there is nothing specifically for or against female leaders, and it is dangerous at best to create doctrine from narrative. God's selection of male leaders in a patriarchal culture doesn't necessarily inform His selection of leaders in the Church.

Paul describes order to marital relationships, not to relationships between men and women generally. "The man is the head of A womAn", not "all womEn". He also summarized that whole passage with, "However, in the Lord..." which means that the preceding verses aren't even talking about the Church specifically.

 

[Dino246]

Well, depending on your stance of Women's authority in the Church, it would impact your view on whether Mpopi was inspired or not. For as John146 said, why didn't God tell him about the defiance of his pastor, for example, which I believe would be a more critical issue?

God's ways are higher than our ways.

 

[DB7]

Respectfully, I've been around this rodeo quite a while. I've read every relevant verse many times. I've read many books on the subject and listened to many hours of teaching, on both sides. I've written on the subject for seminary classes. I respect your right to hold a different view, and unlike so many already in this thread, I don't need to denigrate those who disagree with me.

The word "pastor" simply is not the word used in any passage allegedly restricting women from leadership. Force-fitting a modern job title to a biblical term that already has a specific meaning is a fallacy of equivocation.

Ancient Israel is not the Church, and there is no "infamy" around Deborah. All her actions recorded in Scripture were honourable. Athalia is a completely different situation. Both passages are narrative, not didactic; there is nothing specifically for or against female leaders, and it is dangerous at best to create doctrine from narrative. God's selection of male leaders in a patriarchal culture doesn't necessarily inform His selection of leaders in the Church.

Paul describes order to marital relationships, not to relationships between men and women generally. "The man is the head of A womAn", not "all womEn". He also summarized that whole passage with, "However, in the Lord..." which means that the preceding verses aren't even talking about the Church specifically.

Ok Dino, thanks, i see that you've been around the block on this subject matter quite a few times, and are as informed as anyone is going to be in regard to it.
Not to belabour the issue, but just to address your contentions so it doesn't appear that i was speaking idly. The infamy that i referred to with Deborah, is that God stated that he was going to shame Barak by giving a woman the glory, for the not leading Israel into battle by himself. i.e. it was a shame for a man to be lead by a woman.
And, I brought up the ancient hierarchy, because i don't see it as being cultural, or circumstantial, but fundamental. God maintained this hierarchy throughout the Bible, and I can't think of a single circumstance where it changed, that is, a woman having a leadership role in any capacity (outside of the infamous exceptions). Yes, not didactic, but supplementary to the argument as an implicit command, outside of the extremely fundamental ones (man came first, woman made for man, man head of woman, woman not to speak in church or have authority, woman cover her head even because of angels, etc..).

Either way Dino, thanks for your time and input, clearly your position is studied and convicted, so i'll spare my thoughts on this matter towards you.
Thanks again!