Cain's Offering

[dcontroversal]

was it evil for Cain to till the ground?
it was Adam's vocation in the garden, to tend it, and it was what God said he would do all the days of his life - eat the plants of the field by the sweat of his brow. grain offerings are acceptable - even commanded in the law, 2,500 years later.
if Cain was a worker of the soil like his father before him, where was Cain supposed to get blood to offer?

There was no command to bring an offering of the ground, there was a precedence set by God killing the animal, shedding blood and covering Adam and Eve's shame, sin and nakedness and the PROMISE of a redeemer in Genesis 3:15......from front to back the bible points at Jesus as the sacrifice for sin.....

 

[reneweddaybyday]

.
● Gen 4:7 . . If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

FAQ: How could Cain possibly have known right from wrong without a
written code to go by?

A: Luke 11:49-51 says Abel was a prophet.
_

I do not believe the Word was written at that time. I believe the Word was handed down from generation to generation as parents taught their children.

I do believe the truth of redemption if written in the stars ... The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard - Psalm 19:1-3. Of course, the adversary has corrupted/perverted this truth into what some follow (the lie of astrology).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Hey thanks for responding and I do appologize for not giving explanation. I disagreed with sin offering being at the door. Sin is the one knocking at the door. And it waits for us like a roaring lion. We must resist the devil and he will flee...

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

And as for the part that says we shall rule over sin, and not let sin rule us. But rather we should have dominion over sin, here is some of the following.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
56 For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. 57 But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.

yeah ... i've been taught both and, in all honesty, both have merit.

However, I lean toward the word chatta'ath referring to sin offering because Cain had already sinned when God spoke to him in Gen 4:6-7.

Cain had not brought his offering in faith as Abel had. Cain had already transgressed and God was directing and instructing Cain to bring an offering and he would be accepted.

I do not believe mankind had the ability to rule over sin until after Day of Pentecost and even now a person needs to be born again and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in order for sin to not have dominion (imho).

 

[TLC209]

yeah ... i've been taught both and, in all honesty, both have merit.

However, I lean toward the word chatta'ath referring to sin offering because Cain had already sinned when God spoke to him in Gen 4:6-7.

Cain had not brought his offering in faith as Abel had. Cain had already transgressed and God was directing and instructing Cain to bring an offering and he would be accepted.

I do not believe mankind had the ability to rule over sin until after Day of Pentecost and even now a person needs to be born again and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in order for sin to not have dominion (imho).

Brother if you do have the Holy Spirit how can you explain your interpretation to fit in the said scripture?

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

It does not say Cain had sinned, it only said He did not respect Cains offering. Also if sin offering were lieth at the door and sin offering he shall rule over? What sin offering would desire Cain? What does that even mean?? That makes no sense brother.

You can also use other translations to see what may better help.

NLT
5 but he did not accept Cain and his gift. This made Cain very angry, and he looked dejected.
6 “Why are you so angry?” the Lord asked Cain. “Why do you look so dejected? 7 You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master.”

ESV
5 but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell. 6 The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen?7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.”

RSV
5 but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. 6 The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

 

[49]

Because Abel's offering was symbolic of the future flesh and blood offering of the LORD Jesus Christ on the cross.. From reading the passage God was not angry at Cain, It was not a rejection of Cain but the rejection of Cains style of offering.. The Bible makes the statement later on that the shedding of blood is necessary for the forgiveness of sins.

The incident with Cain and Abel was all about establishing what the proper symbolic sacrifice was to be.. It was a teaching opportunity that God used to set this principle..




Cains wroth ( anger ) was already sin because it was unjustafiable anger and God was warning Him that anger can lead to greater sins ( murder ) that sin was still in the future it was near,, at the door,, God before hand was telling Cain that if He did well and avoided sinning in the future all would be well for Cain.. Gods question to Cain ""why art thou wroth? "" Was God using a question to try and get Cain to think things over.. Cain was not justified to be angry.. There was no reason to be angry.. God had not rejected Cain.. He had however rejected Cains sacrafice because it did not include the sheding of blood..

God before hand was telling Cain that if He did well and avoided sinning in the future all would be well for Cain..

Do like that.
Thank you.

 

[Guojing]

You did actually. You said to cease from all works. Cease is to stop. So yes you were implying that Paul taught NO WORKS.

For salvation, yes. You are not to rely on any works to be "justified as righteous".

Was that your belief? I am fine, there are certainly many Christians who believe in using works to be justified before God, you are in good company.

 

[Guojing]

.



God's acceptance of Abel's offering doesn't prove that Abel's offering itself
was righteous, rather it proves that Abel the man himself was a righteous
man to begin with; whereas God's rejection of Cain's offering proves that
Cain the man himself was an unrighteous man to begin with.

God has never been pleased with the offerings of unrighteous people even
when their offerings are 100% correct, timely, and God-given.

Compare Isa 1:2-15 and Prov 15:8

See also post No.50
_

You show Calvinist thinking in this reply, are you one?

 

[Guojing]

I thought this is exactly the verse that @Guojing was referring to, that you commented about on his post.

You are right that i do not understand scripture. It is profound beyond all human compression.

There are many verses from Paul's epistles you can use to show:

1. "BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom. 3:21);
2. "To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5);
3. "Being Justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24);
4. "In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7);
5. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Tit. 3:5);
6. "Not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9) -

 

[TLC209]

For salvation, yes. You are not to rely on any works to be "justified as righteous".

Was that your belief? I am fine, there are certainly many Christians who believe in using works to be justified before God, you are in good company.

No I do not agree. Works are not "used" for salvation. That would be manipulation. You cannot fool God. That is why He tests our faith. I thought I made it clear that works is not for salvation. I also made the point clear that faith without works does not save anyone. Read James 2. I will provide further scripture to show you what I mean.

Romans 10:16 But not everyone welcomes the Good News, for Isaiah the prophet said, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ. 18 But I ask, have the people of Israel actually heard the message? Yes, they have:
“The message has gone throughout the earth,
and the words to all the world.”
19 But I ask, did the people of Israel really understand? Yes, they did, for even in the time of Moses, God said,
“I will rouse your jealousy through people who are not even a nation.
I will provoke your anger through the foolish Gentiles.”
20 And later Isaiah spoke boldly for God, saying,
“I was found by people who were not looking for me.
I showed myself to those who were not asking for me.”
21 But regarding Israel, God said,
“All day long I opened my arms to them,
but they were disobedient and rebellious.”

Faith comes from hearing the Word. Here we see the jews heard the Word and understood the message yet they were disobedient and rebellious. They were in turn rejected. Anyone who denies Christ will also be denied before the Father. So faith comes by hearing but it is noted that it requires an action. Being obedience or works.

James 1:21 So get rid of all the filth and evil in your lives, and humbly accept the word God has planted in your hearts, for it has the power to save your souls.
22 But don’t just listen to God’s word. You must do what it says. Otherwise, you are only fooling yourselves. 23 For if you listen to the word and don’t obey, it is like glancing at your face in a mirror. 24 You see yourself, walk away, and forget what you look like. 25 But if you look carefully into the perfect law that sets you free, and if you do what it says and don’t forget what you heard, then God will bless you for doing it.

So if we hear the Word we must also be doers of the Word. Obedience is proof that we believe. Proof of our faith. That is why James teaches to show your faith by your works. And if you still dont believe that works is unnecessary for salvation, you can read the following parable Jesus taught.

Matthew 21:28 “But what do you think about this? A man with two sons told the older boy, ‘Son, go out and work in the vineyard today.’ 29 The son answered, ‘No, I won’t go,’ but later he changed his mind and went anyway. 30 Then the father told the other son, ‘You go,’ and he said, ‘Yes, sir, I will.’ But he didn’t go.
31 “Which of the two obeyed his father?”
They replied, “The first.”
Then Jesus explained his meaning: “I tell you the truth, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do. 32 For John the Baptist came and showed you the right way to live, but you didn’t believe him, while tax collectors and prostitutes did. And even when you saw this happening, you refused to believe him and repent of your sins.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Brother if you do have the Holy Spirit how can you explain your interpretation to fit in the said scripture?

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

It does not say Cain had sinned, it only said He did not respect Cains offering. Also if sin offering were lieth at the door and sin offering he shall rule over? What sin offering would desire Cain? What does that even mean?? That makes no sense brother.

You can also use other translations to see what may better help.

NLT
5 but he did not accept Cain and his gift. This made Cain very angry, and he looked dejected.
6 “Why are you so angry?” the Lord asked Cain. “Why do you look so dejected? 7 You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master.”

ESV
5 but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell. 6 The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen?7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.”

RSV
5 but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. 6 The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

I explained my understanding of the verse at Post #39.

As far as Cain having sinned, look at Gen 4:5 - Cain was very wroth (he burned with anger - Brown-Driver-Briggs). Cain's countenance fell (his face was fallen with displeasure - Brown-Driver-Briggs).

Cain did not bring his offering in faith; God did not have respect to Cain or his offering; Cain burned with anger and his countenance fell.

In our dealings with God, what causes us such displeasure that we burn with anger?

In Gen 4:6-7, God reached out to Cain and gave him instruction.


Hebrews 12:6 tells us For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Hebrews 12:11 tells us Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

God knows His chastening is grievous to us, but when we submit to His chastening, we reap the peaceable fruit of righteousness.


Cain did not submit to God's chastening. Cain turned from God, ignored the instruction, and killed his brother Abel.

 

[Guojing]

No I do not agree. Works are not "used" for salvation. That would be manipulation. You cannot fool God. That is why He tests our faith. I thought I made it clear that works is not for salvation. I also made the point clear that faith without works does not save anyone.

You cannot have your cake and eat it. Your above 2 points are contradictory.

If you are clear works are not for salvation, your 2nd statement cannot be true at the same time.

 

[TLC209]

You cannot have your cake and eat it. Your above 2 points are contradictory.

If you are clear works are not for salvation, your 2nd statement cannot be true at the same time.

Jesus Christ saved us. Not our works. Works does not save you. What Jesus did on the cross will save you. If we believe in this, through faith we will be saved. Having said that. Without works you do not have faith. Faith produces evidence of itself. Faith bears good works. So faith without works is not faith at all. It is wishful thinking and not valid.

1 John 2:3 And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments. 4 If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth. 5 But those who obey God’s word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him. 6 Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did.

Matthew 3:8 Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God. 9 Don’t just say to each other, ‘We’re safe, for we are descendants of Abraham.’ That means nothing, for I tell you, God can create children of Abraham from these very stones. 10 Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.

1 Timothy 6:2 Teach these things, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. 3 Some people may contradict our teaching, but these are the wholesome teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. These teachings promote a godly life. 4 Anyone who teaches something different is arrogant and lacks understanding. Such a person has an unhealthy desire to quibble over the meaning of words. This stirs up arguments ending in jealousy, division, slander, and evil suspicions. 5 These people always cause trouble. Their minds are corrupt, and they have turned their backs on the truth. To them, a show of godliness is just a way to become wealthy.

God promotes godliness living in sanctity and holiness. While you are saying we dont have to live this way and that is not needed for salvation? Works is us living the way God commands us to live. The works itself do not save us. Jesus atonement for our sins saved us. The works show we are living by faith. The righteous shall walk by faith. To not do works does not prove you have faith at all.. and therefore WITHOUT FAITH YOU WONT BE SAVED.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus Christ saved us. Not our works. Works does not save you. What Jesus did on the cross will save you. If we believe in this, through faith we will be saved. Having said that. Without works you do not have faith. Faith produces evidence of itself. Faith bears good works. So faith without works is not faith at all. It is wishful thinking and not valid.

God promotes godliness living in sanctity and holiness. While you are saying we dont have to live this way and that is not needed for salvation? Works is us living the way God commands us to live. The works itself do not save us. Jesus atonement for our sins saved us. The works show we are living by faith. The righteous shall walk by faith. To not do works does not prove you have faith at all.. and therefore WITHOUT FAITH YOU WONT BE SAVED.

So in order to have your cake and eat it at the same time, you include works in your definition of faith.

Then your entire argument is a tautology.

 

[TLC209]

So in order to have your cake and eat it at the same time, you include works in your definition of faith.

Then your entire argument is a tautology.

Im not repeating the same thing twice. Faith and works are two different things. You on the other hand did not answer my question.

 

[Guojing]

Im not repeating the same thing twice. Faith and works are two different things. You on the other hand did not answer my question.

What was your question? I have already answered your question on whether I believe salvation is by faith alone apart from works.

 

[TLC209]

What was your question? I have already answered your question on whether I believe salvation is by faith alone apart from works.

The question is whether or not you think people who believe in Jesus Christ ought to live Holy and pleasing to God? Is living Holy and being obedient to Gods commandments considered works in your opinion?

 

[Guojing]

The question is whether or not you think people who believe in Jesus Christ ought to live Holy and pleasing to God? Is living Holy and being obedient to Gods commandments considered works in your opinion?

I believe when we accept Jesus's work on the cross, we are automatically transformed into just like Christ. When God sees us, he sees us perfect, just as Christ is perfect.

Thus, righteousness is about right believing, not right living. But as I have earlier said, it does not mean you don't live right.

 

[TLC209]

I believe when we accept Jesus's work on the cross, we are automatically transformed into just like Christ. When God sees us, he sees us perfect, just as Christ is perfect.

Thus, righteousness is about right believing, not right living. But as I have earlier said, it does not mean you don't live right.

Not sure this is based on scripture? It sounds like a mixture of scriptures without correct interpretation. Let me ask you what this scripture means to you, using your ideology.

Hebrews 12:14-17 Work at living in peace with everyone, and work at living a holy life, for those who are not holy will not see the Lord. Look after each other so that none of you fails to receive the grace of God. Watch out that no poisonous root of bitterness grows up to trouble you, corrupting many. Make sure that no one is immoral or godless like Esau, who traded his birthright as the firstborn son for a single meal. You know that afterward, when he wanted his father’s blessing, he was rejected. It was too late for repentance, even though he begged with bitter tears.

 

[Webers.Home]

.

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his
handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth
knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not
heard - Psalm 19:1-3.

Cain didn't need to contemplate the cosmos in order to know for himself
there's a supreme being. He had that part of his religion down pat; straight
from the horse's mouth.
_

 

[Webers.Home]

.

You show Calvinist thinking in this reply,

The incident with Cain and his brother isn't about the so-called plan of
salvation. It's about fellowship; which is a different issue altogether.

See Isa 1:2-15, Prov 15:8, and 1John 1:5-6.
_