Cain's Offering

[John146]

there is no record of instructions given to Adam, to Eve, to Abel or to Cain regarding offerings or how to approach Him. i think we should let Genesis 1-3 inform us about Genesis 4.
the record introducing the narrative of Genesis 4 is Genesis 3:21, that the LORD made tunics of hide for Adam & Eve.
it is much more natural to presume that what they are doing is a voluntary commemoration of this than to imagine that God commanded them a detailed liturgical code that He doesn't bother recording in the book -- are they making tunics for themselves? what do they wear? what does Abel do with the hide from the sheep he slaughtered? God tells Cain "if you do what is right" - how does what is actually written in Genesis 3 inform him of what is right and what is wrong? God removes the coverings they made for themselves and makes coverings for them Himself. is Cain wearing fig leaves? if Abel's gift showed faith and Cain's showed unbelief, how did it show unbelief? it's not like he brought nothing at all - and seeing that Abel was a keeper of sheep, it's not like he didn't offer something from his own labor. just how evil is Cain's offering?

Faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. If Abel’s offering was by faith, then God must have told him the kind of offering that pleases Him, either directly or indirectly through Adam. Cain knew as well, but he decided to give of his own labor. Abel’s sacrifice was more excellent than Cain’s.

God gave him a chance to correct it. He did not and this gave Satan an opportunity to slay the promised seed, Abel, by using Cain. God replaced Abel with Seth and continued the seed line on through Genesis 5 to Noah.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

 

[posthuman]

God gave him a chance to correct it. He did not and this gave Satan an opportunity to slay the promised seed, Abel, by using Cain. God replaced Abel with Seth and continued the seed line on through Genesis 5 to Noah.

Eve may have thought Cain, her firstborn, was the promised seed. She said she had gotten a man from the Lord when he was born. Abel's name is derivative of the word for vanity. If she had thought Cain was the promise, a second son either dashed that idea or seemed meaningless.

Abel does not represent a failed plan of God's - he was not the seed that was foretold.

 

[Webers.Home]

.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice
than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God
testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

God's acceptance of Abel's offering doesn't prove that Abel's offering itself
was righteous, rather it proves that Abel the man himself was a righteous
man to begin with; whereas God's rejection of Cain's offering proves that
Cain the man himself was an unrighteous man to begin with.

God has never been pleased with the offerings of unrighteous people even
when their offerings are 100% correct, timely, and God-given.

Compare Isa 1:2-15 and Prov 15:8

See also post No.50
_

 

[John146]

Eve may have thought Cain, her firstborn, was the promised seed. She said she had gotten a man from the Lord when he was born. Abel's name is derivative of the word for vanity. If she had thought Cain was the promise, a second son either dashed that idea or seemed meaningless.

Abel does not represent a failed plan of God's - he was not the seed that was foretold.

Yes, and since there were two boys, one of them had to be the seed line. Satan was on the prowl. He saw Abel pleases God and Cain did not, thus making Abel the seed. Let’s kill the seed and nullify the promise.

 

[John146]

.



God's acceptance of Abel's offering doesn't prove that Abel's offering itself
was righteous, rather it proves that Abel the man himself was a righteous
man to begin with; whereas God's rejection of Cain's offering proves that
Cain the man himself was an unrighteous man to begin with.

God has never been pleased with the offerings of unrighteous people even
when their offerings are 100% correct, timely, and God-given.

Compare Isa 1:2-15 and Prov 15:8

See also post No.50
_

Noted, but Scripture says that Abel’s sacrifice was more excellent than Cain’s sacrifice. The sacrifice not the man.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
It could be argued that the passage below speaks of the blood of Abel's
offering.

● Heb 12:22-24 . .You have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem,
the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of
angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are
written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits
of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant,
and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

It could also be argued that the passage above speaks of his own blood
rather than that of his offering.

● Gen 4:9-11 . . The Lord said: What have you done? The voice of your
brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground.

The contrast is very interesting. Abel's blood served to condemn a murderer;
whereas Christ's blood serves to get murderers acquitted; even serial killers
and hired guns.

On the night of baby Jesus' birth, a celestial being made this announcement:

● Luke 2:10-12 . .The angel said to shepherds: Do not be afraid; for behold,
I bring you good news of a great joy which shall be for all the people; for
today in the city of David there has been born for you a savior, who is Christ
the Lord.

The Greek word for "savior" means the same thing as a rescuer, e.g.
lifeguards, firemen, cops, emergency medical teams, Coast Guard units,
snow patrols, and mountain rescue teams. Rescuers typically save people
who are facing imminent death and/or grave danger and utterly helpless to
do anything about it.

Well; in my book; news of someone who can rescue murderers from the
wrath of God, easily qualifies as "good news of great joy". Nothing compares
to it.
_

 

[TLC209]

​

For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. ​

(Hebrews 4:10)​

What are you implying? Do you understand the verse you quoted? Because it does not go to what guojing is referring to. Not sure if you understand scripture.

 

[Webers.Home]

.

Noted, but Scripture says that Abel’s sacrifice was more excellent than
Cain’s sacrifice. The sacrifice not the man.

Abel's offering was better because it was offered by a righteous man;
whereas Cain's offering was inferior because it was offered by a wicked man.

You may not beleive what I'm saying now, but it's only a matter of time
when you'll realize that what I'm saying is true.
_

 

[posthuman]

What are you implying? Do you understand the verse you quoted? Because it does not go to what guojing is referring to. Not sure if you understand scripture.

I thought this is exactly the verse that @Guojing was referring to, that you commented about on his post.

You are right that i do not understand scripture. It is profound beyond all human compression.

 

[TLC209]

I am talking how to approach God, how to be justified as righteous before him.

I am not saying "Don't do any good works".

You did actually. You said to cease from all works. Cease is to stop. So yes you were implying that Paul taught NO WORKS.

But now, we show our faith by following what God told Paul to instruct us, by ceasing from all works, and believing in his Son's death burial and resurrection as the sufficient means of salvation. (1 Cor 15:1-4)

 

[posthuman]

.


Abel's offering was better because it was offered by a righteous man;
whereas Cain's offering was inferior because it was offered by a wicked man.

You may not beleive what I'm saying now, but it's only a matter of time
when you'll realize that what I'm saying is true.
_

God didn't say to Cain "if you be a better person in your heart.."
He told him, if you DO what is right.

 

[TLC209]

I thought this is exactly the verse that @Guojing was referring to, that you commented about on his post.

You are right that i do not understand scripture. It is profound beyond all human compression.

That is not the scripture guojing was referring to because guojing did not provide scripture to where Paul instructs us to cease from works because that is unbiblical and is not found in scripture.

The verse you provided refers to entering Gods rest. That will happen when our earthly bodies DIE! We will cease from doing works at that point. Until we enter Gods rest we must WORK! As a matter of fact that scripture goes on to say not all will enter Gods rest.

I assume you were being sarcastic when you say you do not understand scripture. God bless you..

 

[TLC209]

God didn't say to Cain "if you be a better person in your heart.."
He told him, if you DO what is right.

The heart reflects the person. Something about Cains offerring was wrong. God knows the heart. How do we know if Cains offering was leftovers? Abels was the firstfruits of his labor. Cains most likely was not. This would show God was not his top priority. As Abels offerring was done in faith.

 

[John146]

.


Abel's offering was better because it was offered by a righteous man;
whereas Cain's offering was inferior because it was offered by a wicked man.

You may not beleive what I'm saying now, but it's only a matter of time
when you'll realize that what I'm saying is true.
_

I’m just going by what I see Scripture says. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Thristy_for_living_waters]

When I was a very small child my understanding was Cain’s fruit was fruit that was over ripen and fallen to the ground. That he did not pluck the best from the trees/vines and offer it. Were as Abel offered his best..Funny how that stuck with me.

 

[OneOfHis]

Works signifies obedience.

Not in many cases.

Work signifies labor....work... actions... which can also be disobedience.

Why did God not have respect unto Cain and to his offering?

1.
Cain offered the fruits of his labor. (hard work.... as in "look what I've done)

Abel offered a spotless sacrifice. (the blood of the spotless... a sign of Christ and what we need to be accepted )


_____

What are you implying? Do you understand the verse you quoted? Because it does not go to what guojing is referring to. Not sure if you understand scripture.

Works done to be justified or accepted are to be done away with and do not go hand and hand with obedience.


Many works are vainity...

Ecclesiastes 1
1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.

2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?

4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.

6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.

7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

8 All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.

9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

12 I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.

13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.



We do not "work" for our Father to gain, we work out of love for Him who loved us first. Our works mean nothing if they are ultimately done for "self".


"I will say sorry in order to be forgiven." Saying sorry for self.

"I will donate to be obedient so that I am accepted." Sharing what God provided for self.


"I am sorry Father.... I have wronged someone and been a bad witness/neighbor Father.... it hurts.....please give me an opportunity to show them your love in me and allow me to humble myself before them...."


"Father I am so grateful for all you have provided... please show me how to share this in a fruitful way..."


Same works.... some aren't "obedient"... and neither of these acts justify nor gain acceptance or glory for self before God....


For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.


But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.

 

[TLC209]

Not in many cases.

Work signifies labor....work... actions... which can also be disobedience.



1.
Cain offered the fruits of his labor. (hard work.... as in "look what I've done)

Abel offered a spotless sacrifice. (the blood of the spotless... a sign of Christ and what we need to be accepted )


_____


Works done to be justified or accepted are to be done away with and do not go hand and hand with obedience.


Many works are vainity...

Ecclesiastes 1
1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.

2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?

4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.

6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.

7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

8 All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.

9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

12 I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.

13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.



We do not "work" for our Father to gain, we work out of love for Him who loved us first. Our works mean nothing if they are ultimately done for "self".


"I will say sorry in order to be forgiven." Saying sorry for self.

"I will donate to be obedient so that I am accepted." Sharing what God provided for self.


"I am sorry Father.... I have wronged someone and been a bad witness/neighbor Father.... it hurts.....please give me an opportunity to show them your love in me and allow me to humble myself before them...."


"Father I am so grateful for all you have provided... please show me how to share this in a fruitful way..."


Same works.... some aren't "obedient"... and neither of these acts justify nor gain acceptance or glory for self before God....


For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.


But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.

Not sure why you are arguing this point? Seems like you agree that works are obedience. But you add that works are labor to which I disagree. The scripture you provided clearly says labour. The statement I made to guojing was about works. Two different things. Labour and works are not the same thing. Allow me to clarify my position since you disagree with works being obedience.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith saves. Works does not. Faith without works is dead. Works without faith is dead. It is faith with works that is faith made perfect.

Take Cain and Abel for example. Both offered an offering. This offering was works, but they did this offering out of obedience. Abel did his obedience with faith, Cain did not do his obedience with faith. Even his obedience was questionable and Cains works was rejected.

You see true faith produces obedience. And it is in obedience that we perform works. Faith in Jesus Christ will produce love and obedience resulting in works. Abraham had faith in God, his faith produced obedience resulting in him offerring his son Isaac on the altar. His works. God told him to offer his son as a sacrifice. His obedience was his works justified. Faith plus works made perfect.

Jesus also gave us commands for us to do, Love one another. Love God first in all that we do. Preach the gospel, make disciples, and baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. Faith in Jesus will render obedience resulting in works.

John 14:12 “I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father.

John 14:21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”

John 3:35 The Father loves his Son and has put everything into his hands. 36 And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

Obedience in Jesus Christ is the result of having faith. Obedience is the fruit of loving Jesus Christ. Obedience will produce good works. Works are done obeying Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior.

Works are not done for salvation. Works will not save anyone. Works are a product of ones faith resulting in obedience.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Hi @TLC209 ...

You disagreed with what I submitted in Post #4 without offering explanation as to what you find so offensive in the post.

Do you disagree that Abel offered by faith a more excellent sacrifice than Cain?

Do you disagree that I have heard teaching which indicates that God told Cain a sin offering was at the door because the word chatta'ath (translated as "sin" in Gen 4:7) is also translated as "sin offering" in many verses in Scripture?

Do you disagree that if chatta'ath refers to "sin offering", the sin offering is at the disposal of the offeror; or if chatta'ath refers to "sin", then sin is Cain's desire and Cain rules over sin?

Do you disagree with the notion that I lean toward chatta'ath referring to "sin offering"?

 

[Webers.Home]

.
● Gen 4:7 . . If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

FAQ: How could Cain possibly have known right from wrong without a
written code to go by?

A: Luke 11:49-51 says Abel was a prophet.
_

 

[TLC209]

Hi @TLC209 ...

You disagreed with what I submitted in Post #4 without offering explanation as to what you find so offensive in the post.

Do you disagree that Abel offered by faith a more excellent sacrifice than Cain?

Do you disagree that I have heard teaching which indicates that God told Cain a sin offering was at the door because the word chatta'ath (translated as "sin" in Gen 4:7) is also translated as "sin offering" in many verses in Scripture?

Do you disagree that if chatta'ath refers to "sin offering", the sin offering is at the disposal of the offeror; or if chatta'ath refers to "sin", then sin is Cain's desire and Cain rules over sin?

Do you disagree with the notion that I lean toward chatta'ath referring to "sin offering"?

Hey thanks for responding and I do appologize for not giving explanation. I disagreed with sin offering being at the door. Sin is the one knocking at the door. And it waits for us like a roaring lion. We must resist the devil and he will flee...

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

And as for the part that says we shall rule over sin, and not let sin rule us. But rather we should have dominion over sin, here is some of the following.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
56 For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. 57 But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.