When the body dies, what happens to the spirit?

DB7 · Dec 4, 2019

Hello again DB7, I stated what I believe, so I think it best that we agree to disagree at this point about the sleep of the soul (in part, at least, because I don't believe that anyone's salvation rests upon getting that particular doctrine right or not).

That said, the verses/passages that you posited for us have little to nothing to do with the Intermediate State and what happens during that time to the souls (not the bodies) of believers. And while I certainly disagree with your interpretation of the verses that I posited for us in my first post above (verses/passages that support a conscious, Intermediate State of the soul), here again, I will agree to disagree, principally because I don't believe that there is a compelling reason to continue the discussion.

Finally, if you are asking me who the better exegete is, you and/or the theologians from a couple of cults, or the theologians from the whole of the historic Christian Church (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, etc.), I've already told you where I stand in regard to that .. with the Church.

~Deut
p.s. - As you know, the church, as a whole, bickers and argues endlessly about a great many things, but when the ENTIRE Christian Church stops bickering and stands as ~one~ (w/o any variation of belief) concerning a particular doctrine, I would think it prudent, for any who disagree with us, to take the time to go back and consider, or consider again, why we continue to believe & teach what we do.
.

That's fine D, i was being contentious with you for the sake of LPDM, i was pointing out the perceived errors and bad practices for his sake. But like you said, we've both stated our cases and said enough, let's see if either one of us has had any impact on him....?
Thanks!

DB7 · Dec 4, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

No one is judged before Judgement day!

Deuteronomy · Dec 4, 2019

DB7 said:

Hello yet again DB7, I meant to comment on this in my last post, but I didn't (obviously), so here we go.

I do not believe that our ~bodies~ are resurrected/glorified/ascend to Heaven during the Intermediate State, rather we, our souls, go there during that time, while our dead bodies remain in the ground here on earth. Our bodily resurrection occurs after the Intermediate State/at the end of the age.

DB7 said:

Actually, it just means that God already knows who are His, and who are not. The ~reprobate/unregenerate/unsaved~ will stand in the Judgment at the Great White Throne, but God's saints will not stand with them, as all of us came into possession of eternal life from the moment that we first believed

Here is some of what the Lord Jesus has to say about that.

John 3

18 He who believes in Him ~is not judged~; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

The saints will be judged by the Lord, but not in regard to our place in eternity (because that is decided during this life). Rather, ours will be a Judgement (at the Bema Seat of Christ) concerning our Christian service in this life, for the ~rewards~ (or the lack thereof) that we are to receive because of our works.

~Deut
p.s. - and no, I don't believe that we will see Hitler living among the saints during the Intermediate State, or in the age to come

Nehemiah6 · Dec 4, 2019

DB7 said:

TOTALLY FALSE!

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment... (Heb 9:27) Those who are in Hades are simply awaiting their final judgment on Judgment Day for the Lake of Fire. But they have already been judged.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:18,36)

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:16)

Deuteronomy · Dec 4, 2019

DB7 said:

Or we could simply go with a (truly hard to forget) quote that one of my dear Christian brothers used to voice whenever discussions such as ours reached the point of stalemate (because our different interpretations of the Bible could not be harmonized) ... "die and learn"

~Deut

JaumeJ · Dec 4, 2019

Locoponydirtman said:

Throughout the Word from Genesis we are reminded that to die for believing folks is simply going to sleep.

We know in the NT that first the dead in Christ will be taken up to Him followed by those yet in the flesh and living...

How many times have we all seen the letters, R.I.P? They mean reat in peace and they are inscribed on mdany tombstones of many believers who have gone to sleep with our fathers. No mystery; until Jesus, Yeshua, returns, all who died in Christ are asleep.

I am sorry for the passing of your wife's Grandmother, but know she is at peace...God bless you.

TooFastTurtle · Dec 4, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

I agree with what you have said.

However, that should be *spirit* in lower case, and a more appropriate translation (which is perfectly valid) would be *breath*. So what the writer was saying if that the breath of life returns to God, while the body turns to dust (not dust and ashes as mistakenly believed).

However that passage is not giving us insight into the immaterial portion of man -- the soul and spirit (which are always joined together, yet distinct from each other, and with distinct functions).

The New Testament is very clear (and the death of Stephen is a perfect example) that the saints go directly to be with Christ upon death. The unsaved go to Hades. AND SOUL SLEEP IS A FALSE DOCTRINE WHICH ORIGINATED WITH THE CULTS.

Prior to the resurrection of Christ, all the OT saints went to Abraham's Bosom in Hades (which is in the lower parts of the earth, or the heart of the earth, or the core of the earth). When Christ rose from the dead "He led captivity captive") and took all the OT saints from Hades to the New Jerusalem (wherein is Paradise). On the day of Pentecost it is my belief that these saints also received the gift of the Holy Spirit, and were thereby perfected. Therefore they are called *the spirits of just men made perfect* (Heb 12:22-24).

You are correct. I was typing Too Fast (look at my name its true) and did not notice that mistake. It should indeed be lower case spirit instead.

My apologies but sadly the edit time has long expired so I cannot fix it.

DB7 · Dec 4, 2019

Deuteronomy said:

Unfortunate, but true (that we have to wait that long), thanks!

DB7 · Dec 4, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

In God's omniscience and foreknowledge we have been judged already, but the outcome or ramifications will not be known until Judgement day. No one is aware of their eternal status before Judgement day, only God knows in advance. Some can anticipate due to their walk and convictions while on earth, but no one will find out until the appointed time, when the books are finally opened and all is revealed.

ForestGreenCook · Dec 4, 2019

RevelationMan said:

How can we know if your comments line up with the truth of the scriptures, if you don't give scripture reference by book, chapter and verse?

JaumeJ · Dec 4, 2019

ForestGreenCook said:

This is a Bible discussion forum. You can know all by having read the Bible before discussing it. There is only one catch, you must be led by the Holy Spirit in reading. The same holds true in discussing the Word.

John146 · Dec 4, 2019

Wow! This explains a lot of the different opinions I read posted. This is such a simple doctrinal question most 10 year olds growing up in a Bible believing church can answer with Scripture. Why such differing answers? What saith the Scriptures? Can we not agree with what the Scripture says?

Locoponydirtman · Dec 4, 2019

Deuteronomy said:

Hello @Locoponydirtman, the entirety of the church/ALL of us (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Baptist, Lutheran, etc.) teach that God's saints are alive/awake during the "Intermediate State", IOW, while our bodies lie interred in death awaiting bodily resurrection at the end of the age, we go home to be with the Lord. We also teach that the doctrine of 'the sleep of the soul' is heresy.

Here are some of the Biblical reasons that explain why we all teach the same thing concerning this aspect of the Intermediate State.

Matthew 17

1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.

2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.

3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified.

7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.”

8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.

Luke 16

19 There was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.

20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,

21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.

27 And he said, Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—

28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.

29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.

30 But he said, No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!

31 But he said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.

2 Corinthians 5

6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord

7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—

8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

Philippians 1

21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Revelation 6

9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

~Deut
p.s. - Here are a few things to consider. If we/our souls become lifeless (like our bodies are) in death, then:

1. Why was an exception made for Moses? (Elijah never died as you may remember, rather, has was taken to Heaven directly on a chariot of fire)

2. What does the Apostle mean when he speaks of being "absent from the body" and "at home with the Lord"?

3. How could we possibly make "pleasing God" our "ambition" in death if our souls are not alive/conscious after we die?

4. How could the Apostle Paul think that dying (rather than continuing on in fruitful service here, to both God and the church) could be some kind of "gain", or that an unconscious death of the soul could in any way be "very much better" than living on would be?

5. Why is an exception made for the souls of the martyrs in Heaven? If they remained with their bodies in the ground, how are they found in Heaven crying out in a loud voice to the Lord?

Thank you for scriptural answers

Locoponydirtman · Dec 4, 2019

DB7 said:

Hi again LPDM, you'll notice, like I said, of all the passages that Deuteronomy cited, not one was explicit or eschatological.
Matt 17, has nothing to do with the resurrection, it's about Jesus fulfilling the prophecies of both Moses & Elijah, as much as Samuel was raised from the dead temporarily to speak to Saul. Jesus was not talking about the end times here. Their appearance could have any significance about it, it was not proving that they were alive, this is easy for God. Don't forget, no one was allowed to enter heaven until Christ paid the price, and Christ had not paid the price yet, and was not seated at the right-hand of God!

I spoke about Luke in my first post, it's extremely ignorant to think that this is eschatological, ...it's not the subject matter, and heaven will not be as Jesus depicted in this allegory, it's not possible to have communication with the anguished.

Again, 2 Cor 5 and Phil. 1, are not speaking of the end times, they are expressions of speech, as much as Paul told the Corinthians that he is with them in spirit, and amongst them, even when he is absent.

But now LPDM, I will cite you verses that are pertinent and explicit to the topic at hand. There is no comparison to the ones that Deuteronomy cited, and it was extremely deficient and incompetent of him to overlook these very appropriate and didactic ones (sorry Deuteronomy, but it's true, very, very incompetent to disregard these blatant verses specifically on the subject matter)!
Plus LPDM, I only cited a few, there's many more about the end times and judgement day occurring at the final hour, and the usage of the term 'fallen asleep' always referring to death, never to animation and vivification.

And don't forget LPDM, our faith lies in the fact that Jesus was the first-born from the dead, as proof the God will do the same for us. If people are already being raised, the faith and hope has already been realised. This is the significance of the title first-born (and only born from the dead).

1 Thess. 4:13-17
4:13. Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 15. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 14. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 16. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Co. 15:1-6
15:1. Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4. that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5. and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

1 Co. 15:16-20
15:16. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. 20. But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

1 Co. 15:22-23
15:22. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

1 Co. 15:50-54
15:50. I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52. in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

John 5:25-29
5:25. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28. "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29. and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Acts 13:34-37
13:34. The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to decay, is stated in these words: " 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.' 35. So it is stated elsewhere: " 'You will not let your Holy One see decay.' 36. "For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed. 37. But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

Thanks for answering with scripture.

Ahwatukee · Dec 4, 2019

Locoponydirtman said:

Good day Locopondirtman,

What an account name that is

Don't be concerned, your bias is supported by scripture in that, for the believer at the time of death, the spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. I want to start off by defining the difference between when we die and the resurrection. In II Cor.5:6 and Phil.1:22 we read the following:

=================================================
Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. (2 Cor.5:6)

For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. (Phil.1:22)
=====================================================

There are some who attempt to claim that Paul is speaking about the resurrection in the scriptures above. However, the word "anastasis" translated "resurrection" is derived from two words, ana=up and histemi=to stand, properly to stand up again in a physical body. That said, in the first scripture above, Paul says that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord and that he would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Likewise in the following scripture, Paul says, (and this is very important), "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. He also goes on to say that if he goes on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me and that he desires to depart from the body and be with Christ.

My point in all of this is that, when the resurrection takes place, it involves the spirit returning to the body, which becomes immortal and glorified and not departing from it. Paul is speaking about his spirit departing from his body at the time of death. This supported by what he said in Phil.1:22 "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." Therefore, Paul is not speaking about the resurrection here, because the resurrection has to do with the spirit returning to the body, not leaving it. In both scriptures Paul uses the words "away from the body" and "to depart (from the body)."

In short, in the first scripture Paul is saying that while our bodies are still alive, our spirits remain in the body and therefore our spirits are away from the Lord. However, Paul desires to die so that his spirit can depart from the body and go to be with the Lord. You can't do that if your spirit is sleeping in the dust of the earth.

The same meaning is contained in Phil.1:22, Paul gives us the answer as to what he is talking by saying "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Therefore, he is speaking about the death of his body so that his spirit can depart and go to be with Christ. In further support of this, Paul tells the Philippians that it is better for them that he remains in the body for the furtherance of their faith.

Now, regarding "soul-sleep" this is a false teaching. Referring back to the scriptures just presented, how can ones spirit/soul be sleeping in the dust of the earth, when Paul says, "I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far?" This would demonstrate that at the time of death a believer is not sleeping, but is in the presence of Christ, in the spirit. We also have many scriptures which show the spirit conscious and aware after death. The Rich man and Lazarus is one. Many attempt to make this a parable and thereby distort the literal meaning. In this event, we have Lazarus who dies and is buried and the rich man dying as well. Then we find both Lazarus and rich man conscious and aware after the death of their bodies down in Hades. The rich man can see father Abraham and Lazarus by his side and has a conversation with Abraham, even asking to have Lazarus rise from the dead to go to his father's house to warn his five brothers so that they come to that same place of torment.

Another example is at the opening of the 5th seal, John saw the souls under the altar of those who had been killed for the word of God and their testimony. They are seen crying out to the Lord in regards to when He was going to judge those on the earth and avenge their blood. Pretty active for guys whose souls are supposed to be sleeping in the dust of the earth.

Then we have Moses and the Elijah appearing with Jesus and talking with Him about His departure on the mount where the disciples saw Him in His glorified state.

We also have the thief saying to Jesus "Remember me when you come into your kingdom" and Jesus replies with "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise. Since both Jesus and the thief died, how could Jesus make him the promise that he would be with him in paradise that same day? It is because when both Jesus and the thief died, their spirits departed from their bodies and went down to Hades, the same place where Abraham and Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were, which was that place of comfort/paradise. There are many more examples of the conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body. By the way, the reference to "sleep" is referring to the body only, not the spirit.

We also have the example of Stephen. While he was being stoned, he looked up and saw the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God. And just before he died he said, "Lord, receive my spirit." The key to understanding this, is that Jesus wasn't sitting, but standing to receive Stephen's spirit.

The bottom line is that, if at the time of death our spirits are departing to be in the presence of Christ, then they can't be sleeping in the dust of the earth.

So, if your grandmother was in Christ, then her spirit departed and went to be in the presence of Christ, which is the same for all believers who die.

I hope that this relieves any concerns that you and your family may have regarding this issue.

Blessings in Christ!

Ahwatukee · Dec 4, 2019

DB7 said:

That is not judgment. When the wicked die, like the rich man, their spirits go down into hades/sheol to begin their punishment. When the great white throne judgment takes place after the millennial kingdom, then those whose spirits that have been in Hades will resurrect and be officially be judged. See Rev.20:11-15

Ahwatukee · Dec 4, 2019

DB7 said:

Soul-sleep is a false teaching. We have too many scriptural examples of the conscious awareness of the spirit to claim soul-sleep.

Regarding no one being judged, how about God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, which will decimate the majority of the population of the earth and dismantle all human government?

Your error is that, the rich and Lazarus is not a parable, but a real event.

Jesus told the thief next to Him, "today, you will be with me in paradise." How could Jesus make that promise when both died that same day? It's hard to experience paradise when you're sleeping in the dust of the earth. Then there Moses and Elijah meeting and talking with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration and many, many more examples. The reference to "sleep" is only referring to the body, not spirit.

Locoponydirtman · Dec 4, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Good day Locopondirtman,

What an account name that is

Don't be concerned, your bias is supported by scripture in that, for the believer at the time of death, the spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. I want to start off by defining the difference between when we die and the resurrection. In II Cor.5:6 and Phil.1:22 we read the following:

=================================================
Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. (2 Cor.5:6)

For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. (Phil.1:22)
=====================================================

There are some who attempt to claim that Paul is speaking about the resurrection in the scriptures above. However, the word "anastasis" translated "resurrection" is derived from two words, ana=up and histemi=to stand, properly to stand up again in a physical body. That said, in the first scripture above, Paul says that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord and that he would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Likewise in the following scripture, Paul says, (and this is very important), "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. He also goes on to say that if he goes on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me and that he desires to depart from the body and be with Christ.

My point in all of this is that, when the resurrection takes place, it involves the spirit returning to the body, which becomes immortal and glorified and not departing from it. Paul is speaking about his spirit departing from his body at the time of death. This supported by what he said in Phil.1:22 "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." Therefore, Paul is not speaking about the resurrection here, because the resurrection has to do with the spirit returning to the body, not leaving it. In both scriptures Paul uses the words "away from the body" and "to depart (from the body)."

In short, in the first scripture Paul is saying that while our bodies are still alive, our spirits remain in the body and therefore our spirits are away from the Lord. However, Paul desires to die so that his spirit can depart from the body and go to be with the Lord. You can't do that if your spirit is sleeping in the dust of the earth.

The same meaning is contained in Phil.1:22, Paul gives us the answer as to what he is talking by saying "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Therefore, he is speaking about the death of his body so that his spirit can depart and go to be with Christ. In further support of this, Paul tells the Philippians that it is better for them that he remains in the body for the furtherance of their faith.

Now, regarding "soul-sleep" this is a false teaching. Referring back to the scriptures just presented, how can ones spirit/soul be sleeping in the dust of the earth, when Paul says, "I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far?" This would demonstrate that at the time of death a believer is not sleeping, but is in the presence of Christ, in the spirit. We also have many scriptures which show the spirit conscious and aware after death. The Rich man and Lazarus is one. Many attempt to make this a parable and thereby distort the literal meaning. In this event, we have Lazarus who dies and is buried and the rich man dying as well. Then we find both Lazarus and rich man conscious and aware after the death of their bodies down in Hades. The rich man can see father Abraham and Lazarus by his side and has a conversation with Abraham, even asking to have Lazarus rise from the dead to go to his father's house to warn his five brothers so that they come to that same place of torment.

Another example is at the opening of the 5th seal, John saw the souls under the altar of those who had been killed for the word of God and their testimony. They are seen crying out to the Lord in regards to when He was going to judge those on the earth and avenge their blood. Pretty active for guys whose souls are supposed to be sleeping in the dust of the earth.

Then we have Moses and the Elijah appearing with Jesus and talking with Him about His departure on the mount where the disciples saw Him in His glorified state.

We also have the thief saying to Jesus "Remember me when you come into your kingdom" and Jesus replies with "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise. Since both Jesus and the thief died, how could Jesus make him the promise that he would be with him in paradise that same day? It is because when both Jesus and the thief died, their spirits departed from their bodies and went down to Hades, the same place where Abraham and Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were, which was that place of comfort/paradise. There are many more examples of the conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body. By the way, the reference to "sleep" is referring to the body only, not the spirit.

We also have the example of Stephen. While he was being stoned, he looked up and saw the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God. And just before he died he said, "Lord, receive my spirit." The key to understanding this, is that Jesus wasn't sitting, but standing to receive Stephen's spirit.

The bottom line is that, if at the time of death our spirits are departing to be in the presence of Christ, then they can't be sleeping in the dust of the earth.

So, if your grandmother was in Christ, then her spirit departed and went to be in the presence of Christ, which is the same for all believers who die.

I hope that this relieves any concerns that you and your family may have regarding this issue.

Blessings in Christ!

I really appreciate your going at length and use of scripture.

DB7 · Dec 4, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Yes, it is, ...do the saved or unsaved go to Hades (rhetorical). therefore, they've been judged, the verdict has been determined, obviously (and this without the Books being opened)? Lazarus & the rich man story was an allegory, don't confuse fabrication with reality.

DB7 · Dec 4, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Jesus was in the grave 3 days, and walked on earth for 40 more days before ascending to heaven. How in the world could the thief be in paradise before Christ, was even raised for one, and seated on his throne for two.
How in the world is the Lazarus parable real, name me one thing? Will the righteous be communicating with the damned while in Abraham's bosom? Will the damned be asking for water when logistically it's impossible to offer them some? How will one realm visually see someone in the other realm, for who would want to watch their torment?

Words can't express how wrong that you are!

When the body dies, what happens to the spirit?

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