Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,453
13,394
113
58
Here is where the Bible warns believers to not commit blasphemy of the Spirit:

Hebrews 3: 12-14 KJV
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end
I don't see the words, "blasphemy of the Spirit" in Hebrews 3, but we do see this term in Mark 3:22-30 and Matthew 12:22-32. This case of blasphemy is a specific one, called "the blasphemy against the Spirit" in Matthew 12:31. In Matthew 12:31-32, the Pharisees (who were not Christians), having witnessed irrefutable proof that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, claimed instead that the Lord was possessed by the ruler of the demons "Beelzebub" (Matthew 12:24). Notice in Mark 3:30 that Jesus is very specific about what they did to commit "blasphemy against the Spirit." These Pharisees were obviously not believers to commit such a sin.

In regards to Hebrews 3:12-14, in verse 14, we read - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah. And of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as born again Hebrew Christians who are partakers of Christ will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. What about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with confidence and profession of loyalty, but then later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

In Hebrews 3:8-10, we read - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' (Not descriptive of genuine believers). There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. In Jude 1:5, we read - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Also in Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,453
13,394
113
58
Titus 3: 5 NOT by works of righteousness which we have done but BY HIS MERCY HE SAVED US....
Amen! Also in 2 Timothy 1:9, we read - who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
The work in progress is ongoing sanctification and not justification. There are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We "have been" (past tense with ongoing present results) saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are "being saved" (present tense) from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We "will be" saved (future tense) from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification) We need to be sure that we do not mix these tenses up. Otherwise we end up teaching salvation by works.
I'm OK with being saved, which as far as I can tell continues to our dying day when we meet our maker and finally the judgement.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
Amen

its HIS reputation on the line, not ours

he saved us based on HIS work and HIS promise.to deny us, would mean HE failed.
we always failed. We never lived up. To deny us would also mean at one time we DID live up, and then failed.


that makes him a liar
It is our failour we need to be careful about. We can easily be enticed away.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
I can say what the author says

7. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

you people love to take verses out of context and demand it proves your right. here is ample proof.
Practice what you preach and read the verse to its conclusion "whose end is to be burned."

The errors that are made dismay me. Worse still, I do not believe it is done in ignorance.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
More warnings. I can only think that the OSAS people do not know their Bible very well.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Pro 14:14 The backslider in heart will be filled with the fruit of his ways, and a good man will be filled with the fruit of his ways.

Jer 14:7 "Though our iniquities testify against us, act, O LORD, for your name's sake; for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against you.

Hos 11:7 My people are bent on turning away from me, and though they call out to the Most High, he shall not raise them up at all.

Luk 9:62 Jesus said to him: No man putting his hand to the plough and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God.

Gal 4:8 But then indeed, not knowing God, you served them who, by nature, are not gods. But now, after that you have known God, or rather are known by God: how turn you again to the weak and needy elements which you desire to serve again?

Heb 10:38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him." But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Heb 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

2Pe 3:17 And so, dear friends, since you already know these things, continually be on your guard not to be carried away by the deception of lawless people. Otherwise, you may fall from your secure position.
 
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
I don't see the words, "blasphemy of the Spirit" in Hebrews 3, but we do see this term in Mark 3:22-30 and Matthew 12:22-32. This case of blasphemy is a specific one, called "the blasphemy against the Spirit" in Matthew 12:31. In Matthew 12:31-32, the Pharisees (who were not Christians), having witnessed irrefutable proof that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, claimed instead that the Lord was possessed by the ruler of the demons "Beelzebub" (Matthew 12:24). Notice in Mark 3:30 that Jesus is very specific about what they did to commit "blasphemy against the Spirit." These Pharisees were obviously not believers to commit such a sin.
Yes, the Pharisees blasphemed the Holy Spirit when they turned away in unbelief from the testimony of the Spirit given to them in signs and wonders. John says that's in essence calling the Holy Spirit a liar.

1 John 5:9-10 KJV
9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.


It's one thing for an unbeliever to reject the testimony of man. It's another thing for an unbeliever to reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit. But it's quite another thing altogether for a believer to reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit and depart from God. And that's what the saved Hebrews were doing.

Hebrews 3:12-14 KJV
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For
we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end

You can see the context is believers needing to hold steadfast to the end and be partakers of Christ. It's not about unbelievers who never came to salvation needing to believe and get saved. Unbelievers aren't in need of steadfastness. They are in need of salvation itself. This is about believers departing from the living God and no longer being partakers of Christ.

The point is, no amount of Jesus and his perfect ministry and prayers is going to cover the sin of these believers if they turn away from the relationship they have with Christ. But the new once saved always saved teaching says it does. Not even slightly true.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Eleventh Hour here putting out the Love Vib :love::love::love: this morning.....so everyone can feel it!!

Have a Blessed and Wonderful Day everyone...... and for you @dcontroversal that will be for Friday.


Gods-Word-is-love-never-fails.jpg

@PS the truth is salvation is secure and not a process but an event :)
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,055
1,524
113
Tell this to everyone who says you can stop believing and you are still saved. Say it every time they make a post saying you can stop believing and you will still be saved.
i dont believe that. i believe the truly saved with continue in the faith. so i dont care what they believe =)
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
And with all my LOVE you are all invited to my house for traditional Italian Breakfast ..........Coffee and Cake!! :):love:

activity_image.jpg
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Yes, the Pharisees blasphemed the Holy Spirit when they turned away in unbelief from the testimony of the Spirit given to them in signs and wonders. John says that's in essence calling the Holy Spirit a liar.

1 John 5:9-10 KJV
9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.


It's one thing for an unbeliever to reject the testimony of man. It's another thing for an unbeliever to reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit. But it's quite another thing altogether for a believer to reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit and depart from God. And that's what the saved Hebrews were doing.

Hebrews 3:12-14 KJV
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For
we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end

You can see the context is believers needing to hold steadfast to the end and be partakers of Christ. It's not about unbelievers who never came to salvation needing to believe and get saved. Unbelievers aren't in need of steadfastness. They are in need of salvation itself. This is about believers departing from the living God and no longer being partakers of Christ.

The point is, no amount of Jesus and his perfect ministry and prayers is going to cover the sin of these believers if they turn away from the relationship they have with Christ. But the new once saved always saved teaching says it does. Not even slightly true.
The Book of Hebrews affirms that it is impossible to depart and He promises to be faithful.

Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; Hebrews 10:23 NASB

You continually confuse admonishment and exhortation as some threat of loss of salvation and it is not!!
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,055
1,524
113
I'm on keto, but for you, I'll gladly take the carbs! Thanks
i enjoy low-carbs too. i lost 10kilograms and im feeling really light now. i wont lose anymore i will start trying to add more muscle weight now to get back in army time shape.

im 180cm and 73kg now
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,570
9,089
113
i enjoy low-carbs too. i lost 10kilograms and im feeling really light now. i wont lose anymore i will start trying to add more muscle weight now to get back in army time shape.

im 180cm and 73kg now
160lbs!! Sounds like you NEED carbs!
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,665
113
It is not God's will that blasphemy of the Spirit be forgiven. But once saved always saved has the person who does that remaining saved and being ushered into the kingdom when Christ returns. Not even Jesus' prayers can change that outcome. He said it himself. That's not a failure on Christ's part. He did not lose them. They left.
You make a good point, but Jesus says all will experience doubt at one time or another, and He made no mention of any resulting repercussions. Since God is understanding of human doubt, I rest comfortably that His irrevocable grace is sufficient.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,665
113
Everyone has to stand before the judgement seat, so do not rely on entering the Kingdom of Heaven. Nobody who leads others astray is eternally secure, unless they are cast into chains.

About apostasy, the biggest apostates were the Israelites, God's own people. They were worshipping idols and false gods like there was no tomorrow, they were the biggest backsliders ever, and no, they were not eternally secure. So do not go telling people they are.
John 5:24
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Here is where the Bible warns believers to not commit blasphemy of the Spirit:

Hebrews 3: 12-14 KJV
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end
And what was the "unbelief" being referenced here?
What is the context?

This is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.