Describe OSAS in terms of this passage.....

[Chris1975]

The Jewish nation exercised their free will to reject their "brother" in his first coming. That is why Gentiles like us can now be included in the salvation plan.

But there will come a future time when they will accept their brother, in his second coming.

Read Romans 9-11 for the details. The Joseph story in Genesis can also help you to understand that timetable.

The Luke 2 account of Simeons prophecy was spoken while Jesus was a child, long before He was rejected by Israel.

Hint: We Gentiles were always in the plan. Just as Jesus knew He would be rejected by His brethren. And if we were always included in His plan, His words will not pass away. And are applicable to Gentile as well as Jew.
So answer my question posted earlier. Which of Jesus' commandments are the gentiles to ignore? Should we ignore the greatest commandment to love God above all else? Or to love our neighbour? Or to forgive seventy times seven, etc. You say none of these apply to Gentiles. Lets see how that plays out for you.

 

[Chris1975]

You may be comforted by that thought, but in the eyes of the Law of Moses, failure to uphold one word is equivalent to failure to uphold all of it. (James 2:10)

Where am I quoting Moses? I cannot be justfied by the law. I am justified through faith in Jesus. But do we uphold the law? Lets see what Romans 3v31 says....

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Matthew 18
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

• So let’s try get everybody on the same page. Can we all agree that Peter is a believer?
• Can we agree that Peter is included in the Kingdom of God (because he is a believer)
• Can we all agree that what Jesus answers next, as well as in the parable that follows, is the Lord’s response to a question by a believer, as to how often he (Peter) should forgive?
• Jesus answers him and says seventy times seven. So basically unending. Continue to forgive.

Assuming we are on the same page up to this point, let’s go further and into the parable that follows.

• We have a King and a Kingdom. This can be seen in parable terms as Jesus and His Kingdom
• We have a subject of the kingdom (a servant) who owed the king a huge debt (v23). In parable terms we as his subjects had a huge debt (sin)
• The subject pleaded for the Kings mercy (prayer, repentance, faith) (v26)
• The loving King has mercy and compassion, and wiped clean the debt (v27). In parable terms this is the Lord forgiving our sins. This is included in the Lord’s Grace.
• Can we agree up to this point that the only those who have come to Christ, and pleaded for mercy have received the Lords grace, and the forgiveness of sins. I am not aware of the unbelievers sin being washed clean, only the believers sin. It’s no use saying this servant is “not really” a servant or subject of the king. Because he truly has had his debt wiped clean.
• In parable terms, the servant is already in the kingdom, and the servant has had his sins washed clean.

So far so good. Let’s not forget that Jesus is still answering Peter’s question (Peter being a servant of the King in the kingdom)

• Now we see that same servant whose debt was cleared, go out and demand that another fellowservant pay him an even smaller amount owed to him, and when he could not, was thrown into prison. In parable terms, this is exactly the same as a Christian who has had such great sins forgiven by the Lord, but yet unwilling to extend the same mercy, forgiveness and grace to a fellow servant.
• And we see the end result of what that got this servant. Once the King hear about what happened, he REINSTATED the debt that was due on the first servant. What was forgiven, WAS NO LONGER FORGIVEN.
• And we end off with the last verse, verse 35, which states the following: 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

So lets bring this back to OSAS doctrine, and whether this holds water. We can see from the above that this entire answer is in in direct relation to the question of a believer (Peter). And verse 35 is ALSO directed to Peter specifically, as well as all believers generally. Could Peter’s sins also be re-imputed to him if he, after having received forgiveness, had not the graces to extend this to his fellow man?
I bring back the original questions.

• Was Peter a believer? Yes.
• Is this parable applicable to Peter, as well as others? Yes.
• Should Peter forgive others? Yes
• What happens to Peter should he refuse to forgive (remember he is a believer)?
• Should you perhaps reconsider the OSAS doctrine?

I completely agree with everything you wrote, for have used this very verse myself. I have also used the following:

"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins." - James 5:19

By James addressing them as "My Brother" we can conclude that James is speaking to believers. Notice that if a believer who has wandered from the truth (gone back to willfully living according to the sinful nature) and someone turns him back, that in that state he would be accumulating sin and would be on his way to death.

We are saved by grace through faith. Not a one time confession of faith, but ongoing faith. Scripture also has this to say:

"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

And

"We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first." - Heb.3:14

And

"You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.

OSAS is true if we continue in faith from first to last. However, if a believer goes back into the world willfully living according to the sinful nature, then that person is in a wandered state and needs to turn back (repent) in order to get back into a right relationship. It's not just "I'm saved no matter what I do or how I live." Regarding turning back, Jesus said the following to those who would be living just prior to the time of God's wrath:

"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

And the following is very clear as well:

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

OSAS is dependent upon continuing in faith from beginning to end. If a believer turns from faith and turns back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, then they need to turn back in order to be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

Every promise of forgiveness and eternal life, is contingent upon remaining in faith.

 

[dcontroversal]

Why would Jesus come to earth and spend three years ministering the word in such great detail just for it all to wash away at the cross. In other words, forget all of the teachings He gave. Why would you gamble with such a huge assertion as you have just made? Don't gamble with your soul Guojing....it is better for you to eat humble pie now and correct your course if you have been wrong all along. That goes for all here who hold the same thinking.
Ignore the words of Jesus at your own peril. Don't be silly about this.

If you cannot grasp the truth that Jesus was born, lived and died under the law which ratified the new Covenant I suggest you get on your knees and get right with God....he preached, walked and talked the LAW which had conditional BLESSING because HE had to satisfy the REQUIREMENTS of the law IN order to be a SINLESS sacrifice while taking the sins of the whole world upon his shoulders....and exactly WHY the righteousness of CHRIST is IMPUTED to us and PUT to our account by FAITH

Like the Pharisee of OLD you KNOW NOT what you speak of.....blind leaders of the blind!

 

[Chris1975]

I completely agree with everything you wrote, for have used this very verse myself. I have also used the following:

"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins." - James 5:19

By James addressing them as "My Brother" we can conclude that James is speaking to believers. Notice that if a believer who has wandered from the truth (gone back to willfully living according to the sinful nature) and someone turns him back, that in that state he would be accumulating sin and would be on his way to death.

We are saved by grace through faith. Not a one time confession of faith, but ongoing faith. Scripture also has this to say:

"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

And

"We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first." - Heb.3:14

And

"You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.

OSAS is true if we continue in faith from first to last. However, if a believer goes back into the world willfully living according to the sinful nature, then that person is in a wandered state and needs to turn back (repent) in order to get back into a right relationship. It's not just "I'm saved no matter what I do or how I live." Regarding turning back, Jesus said the following to those who would be living just prior to the time of God's wrath:

"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

And the following is very clear as well:

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

OSAS is dependent upon continuing in faith from beginning to end. If a believer turns from faith and turns back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, then they need to turn back in order to be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

Every promise of forgiveness and eternal life, is contingent upon remaining in faith.

Amen Brother. Brilliantly compiled.

 

[Chris1975]

If you cannot grasp the truth that Jesus was born, lived and died under the law which ratified the new Covenant I suggest you get on your knees and get right with God....he preached, walked and talked the LAW which had conditional BLESSING because HE had to satisfy the REQUIREMENTS of the law IN order to be a SINLESS sacrifice while taking the sins of the whole world upon his shoulders....and exactly WHY the righteousness of CHRIST is IMPUTED to us and PUT to our account by FAITH

Like the Pharisee of OLD you KNOW NOT what you speak of.....blind leaders of the blind!

Why did He bother teaching anything (if your assertions are true)? He could just as easily have fulfilled the law flying under the radar. Read the post Nr83 above to get an education on these matters.

 

[dodgingstones]

It is revealing the condition of our heart in the light of our forgiveness? An unforgiven person will not forgive whereas a forgiven one will have no other choice with their cleansed heart?

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Pretty clear 2 me. We don't forgive others, God won't forgive us. Regardless......

 

[Chris1975]

If you cannot grasp the truth that Jesus was born, lived and died under the law which ratified the new Covenant I suggest you get on your knees and get right with God....he preached, walked and talked the LAW which had conditional BLESSING because HE had to satisfy the REQUIREMENTS of the law IN order to be a SINLESS sacrifice while taking the sins of the whole world upon his shoulders....and exactly WHY the righteousness of CHRIST is IMPUTED to us and PUT to our account by FAITH

Like the Pharisee of OLD you KNOW NOT what you speak of.....blind leaders of the blind!

You lack an understanding of the difference between justification and sanctification. You seem to be mixing them up.

 

[Guojing]

Where am I quoting Moses? I cannot be justfied by the law. I am justified through faith in Jesus. But do we uphold the law? Lets see what Romans 3v31 says....

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

As I have stated to you in the first post, Jesus was under the Covenant of the Law during the 4 Gospels. He magnified the Law of Moses to its true intent.

If you are following his words then, you are following the amplified Law of Moses.

You wisely quoted Paul, who was the apostle to the Gentiles. Paul received new revelations from the ascended Christ himself to minister to us, non-Jews. Don't anticipate revelation and use them in the time of the 4 Gospels. They did not exist during that time.

 

[Guojing]

The Luke 2 account of Simeons prophecy was spoken while Jesus was a child, long before He was rejected by Israel.

Hint: We Gentiles were always in the plan. Just as Jesus knew He would be rejected by His brethren. And if we were always included in His plan, His words will not pass away. And are applicable to Gentile as well as Jew.
So answer my question posted earlier. Which of Jesus' commandments are the gentiles to ignore? Should we ignore the greatest commandment to love God above all else? Or to love our neighbour? Or to forgive seventy times seven, etc. You say none of these apply to Gentiles. Lets see how that plays out for you.

We were never under the Law of Moses in the first place. There are 613 commandments in the Law of Moses. If you want to follow it, go all the way, don't pick and choose the ones you prefer.

Or you can accept Jesus Christ righteousness thru his death burial and resurrection. When you do that, you automatically love God above all else, because Jesus did it for you.

 

[Chris1975]

As I have stated to you in the first post, Jesus was under the Covenant of the Law during the 4 Gospels. He magnified the Law of Moses to its true intent.

If you are following his words then, you are following the amplified Law of Moses.

You wisely quoted Paul, who was the apostle to the Gentiles. Paul received new revelations from the ascended Christ himself to minister to us, non-Jews. Don't anticipate revelation and use them in the time of the 4 Gospels. They die not exist during that time.

The early church did not have the New testament. Only the Old testament. You may want to rethink a few things.

 

[Guojing]

I completely agree with everything you wrote, for have used this very verse myself. I have also used the following:

"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins." - James 5:19

By James addressing them as "My Brother" we can conclude that James is speaking to believers. Notice that if a believer who has wandered from the truth (gone back to willfully living according to the sinful nature) and someone turns him back, that in that state he would be accumulating sin and would be on his way to death.

We are saved by grace through faith. Not a one time confession of faith, but ongoing faith. Scripture also has this to say:

"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

And

"We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first." - Heb.3:14

And

"You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either.

OSAS is true if we continue in faith from first to last. However, if a believer goes back into the world willfully living according to the sinful nature, then that person is in a wandered state and needs to turn back (repent) in order to get back into a right relationship. It's not just "I'm saved no matter what I do or how I live." Regarding turning back, Jesus said the following to those who would be living just prior to the time of God's wrath:

"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

And the following is very clear as well:

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

OSAS is dependent upon continuing in faith from beginning to end. If a believer turns from faith and turns back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, then they need to turn back in order to be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

Every promise of forgiveness and eternal life, is contingent upon remaining in faith.

You are actually saved because of the faith OF Jesus, not your faith in Jesus.

 

[Guojing]

The early church did not have the New testament. Only the Old testament. You may want to rethink a few things.

I did not say they had it.

 

[Chris1975]

We were never under the Law of Moses in the first place. There are 613 commandments in the Law of Moses. If you want to follow it, go all the way, don't pick and choose the ones you prefer.

Or you can accept Jesus Christ righteousness thru his death burial and resurrection. When you do that, you automatically love God above all else, because Jesus did it for you.

So Jesus says to his disciples the night before his crucifixion - A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another, as I have loved you. P.S. JUST for the next 24 hours

 

[Guojing]

So Jesus says to his disciples the night before his crucifixion - A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another, as I have loved you. P.S. JUST for the next 24 hours

Relax, Paul said the greatest among faith hope and love is love too.

 

[Chris1975]

You are actually saved because of the faith OF Jesus, not your faith in Jesus.

The clown show continues.

So when Jesus says on His retrurn to earth (Luke 18v8), will he even find faith, is he blaming himself?

 

[Guojing]

The clown show continues.

So when Jesus says on His retrurn to earth (Luke 18v8), will he even find faith, is he blaming himself?

He was speaking to the Jews, do you really love to insert yourself into the 4 Gospels when he made it clear that he was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel?

Remember, the Jews needed signs in order to believe in Jesus, and yet even when signs were given, the nation still rejected him.

 

[Chris1975]

He was speaking to the Jews, do you really love to insert yourself into the 4 Gospels when he made it clear that he was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel?

Remember, the Jews needed signs in order to believe in Jesus, and yet even when signs were given, the nation still rejected him.

None of this invalidates his spoken Word.

 

[Guojing]

None of this invalidates his spoken Word.

No one is saying that. I am saying Jesus was not speaking to YOU.

You were excluded from anything from God during the time of the 4 Gospels (Ephesians 2:11-12)

 

[Chris1975]

He was speaking to the Jews, do you really love to insert yourself into the 4 Gospels when he made it clear that he was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel?

Remember, the Jews needed signs in order to believe in Jesus, and yet even when signs were given, the nation still rejected him.

Jesus does not distinguish between the type of faith of Israel, and that of the Church.

Read Hebrews 3 and 4

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. 4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, [a]not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.