James 2v21 (worth its own thread I think)

[Dino246]

With one stroke of the pen you have made parables that make up the gospel without effect

With your additions to Scripture and convolutions of misunderstanding, you have made mincemeat of the clear, plain gospel.

You have not even tried to refute it .When accused of good Master the Son of man refused to stand in the place called the "abomination of desolation" . God is not a man as us. He is not a creature standing in the Holy place of God as the source of all Christian faith. Can you get over it?

Jesus asked a question; He did not make a statement. He did not refuse , because He Himself is God.

Yes I know nice little bed time stories for children . Not the source of hidden spiritual understanding hid in prophecy as parables?

That isn't what I said, and it is nothing close to what I meant.

When a person does not understand the manner of prophecy through parables its easy to see the no faith manner. Study Luke and Mark 9 .They are great examples of parables doing there work of faith need to compare the spiritual understanding to the same. Faith to faith .The gospel

There is prophecy in the parables, but the parables form a limited part of the Scriptures.

Nicolaitans a sect is named after its founder Nicole. Just as Christian is named after its founder, Christ, or Philippians after it founder.

Nicole is the name that fits the reference. The principle is not to have the faith of Christ in respect to men seen. Do the first work believe God not seen. A warning to the whole church is given to each sect, churches.

Don't add to Scripture. That is a principle that supersedes your idea about the founder's name. It may not have been a person at all, but a practice.

 

[posthuman]

Your logic doesn't hold. Paul in Romans addressed his letter to those in Rome. Do you quote Romans?

Guojing believes that a different gospel was preached to the Jews than was preached to the Gentiles.

 

[Butterflyyy]

Your last sentence is gobbledegook. Are you telling people not to have the work of Christ's faith? No long answers please; I am not looking to be instructed by you. I just want to know what you mean, in plain English.

I reckon we all stop bothering with these Calvinists, folks who want to strive to debate, and people who want to be distracted with whether the earth is flat or not, oh and also the preppers and the conspiracy theorists.... and let's just GO OUT AND PREACH THE GOSPEL, AND SEEK THE LOST😁👌🙏🏻....what do you think Dino?😊

 

[Lightskin]

James 2v21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Q1) Did he offer Isaac on the altar BEFORE or AFTER he believed in God?
Q2) If after, how could Abraham be justified by Works when he offered Isaac on the Altar?

No! He was justified by faith. You don’t bring your child to a sacrificial alter unless you have unmitigated, heartfelt faith.

 

[mailmandan]

See verse 22... (Abraham's faith was made complete by his works).
James 2:18: show your faith by your works... works are the fruit of faith, the effect of the faith.

Amen! In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. Abraham showed his faith by his works, just as all genuine believers do. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. To merely claim to have faith, yet produce no works at all (James 2:14) demonstrates and empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

 

[John146]

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

So one act that nobody was a witness to, justified Abraham’s faith? After we claim we are saved, one act of good works declares our justification? Before God? Others, even if that act is not seen by anyone?

Boy, trying to fit James into Church age doctrine is like forcing a square peg in a round hole.

 

[John146]

So one act that nobody was a witness to, justified Abraham’s faith? After we claim we are saved, one act of good works declares our justification? Before God? Others, even if that act is not seen by anyone?

Boy, trying to fit James into Church age doctrine is like forcing a square peg in a round hole.

He was justified before God in chapter 22.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

 

[John146]

Guojing believes that a different gospel was preached to the Jews than was preached to the Gentiles.

Me too! But there’s only one gospel unto eternal salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

He was justified before God in chapter 22.

Abraham was justified/shown to be righteous before God in chapter 22, yet he was justified/accounted as righteous in chapter 15. *Also see Romans 4:2-3. *Perfect harmony.*

 

[John146]

Abraham was justified/shown to be righteous before God in chapter 22, yet he was justified/accounted as righteous in chapter 15. *Also see Romans 4:2-3. *Perfect harmony.*

We are made righteous and justified at the very moment we believe the gospel. Abraham is a type of what we have in chapter 15 before He was circumcised, but he also is used as a type of Jew in the tribulation in James when his work of obedience justified him. That’s not us. This was after his circumcision in chapter 17. Abraham is a dual type.

Btw, Merry Christmas mailmandan!

 

[mailmandan]

Btw, Merry Christmas mailmandan!

Merry Christmas to you as well!

 

[Guojing]

Me too! But there’s only one gospel unto eternal salvation.

Its more accurate to say, Jews who believed in the good news still had to keep the Law, while the Gentiles who believed were exempted. (Acts 21:20-25)

So yeah, the requirements were different for these 2 groups.

 

[John146]

Its more accurate to say, Jews who believed in the good news still had to keep the Law, while the Gentiles who believed were exempted. (Acts 21:20-25)

So yeah, the requirements were different for these 2 groups.

Gospel of the circumcision vs the gospel of the uncircumcision?

 

[Guojing]

Gospel of the circumcision vs the gospel of the uncircumcision?

Yes, although many prefer to use other bible translations that replaced the word of with "for"

 

[garee]

Jesus asked a question; He did not make a statement. He did not refuse , because He Himself is God.

Are you still trying to make God into a man? He is a eternal Spirit, without mother of father, without geanalolgy, without beginning of Spirit life or end of it. without flesh and blood.

That's a Catholic things that exalts Mary (corrupted flesh and blood) as queen of heaven. Some of the Jews follow the same law of fathers, as oral traditions of men. . making God into a man, therefore making sola scriptura without effect.

Yes he asked a question. Why call me Good Master" then made a statement; "there is none good but one, (not two or three) that is, God" then made another statement : "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments". walk by faith .Not after the temporal what the eyes see.

God is not a man as us and neither is there any daysman as fleshly mediator set between the God not seen and man seen.

To make sure men did not seek after him as a man, again as if God was a man, he left a departing statement.

2 Corinthians 5:16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Only one demonstration of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world was promised.He rested from all of His works on the 7th. It is that rest we enter not the shadow according to the flesh of the one time demonstration . We walk by faith the unseen .

There is prophecy in the parables, but the parables form a limited part of the Scriptures.

Yes, the signified portion .Like spoken of in the opening of the book of Revelation1:1 not only sent (inspired) but he siginied that which he did send.. The signified tongues shows a parable is in view.

Like Luke with Lazarus and the rich man. Many take away the signified understanding as the tongue of God by literalizing it.

There is no prescription that informs us without literalizing the word of God Jesus spoke not. His whole ministry was a parable proved by his action .You could say he was a walking parable.

Don't add to Scripture. That is a principle that supersedes your idea about the founder's name. It may not have been a person at all, but a practice.

I added my opinion you added yours.

It was the practice under a name. .Just like the name Christian. He rebuked them for not following Christ rather than men .It applied to all the churches . Just like the warning to other sects in that section .

Like the sect in Smyrna it applied to the whole .There were Jews who were Jews outwardly according to the flesh who were claiming to be born again as a inward Jew or the new name he named his Bride Christian.

Those who have ears hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches,. Not what the churches are saying. Christ defines the us in him not the church . The church is not our first love, as that seen . Jesus said one is good, God.

The word good is his invisible seal of faith. let there be light and it was good. Let there be molecules and atoms (rudiments of this world) and it was good before he corrupted it according to the letter of the law.. You shall no gods of this world before me not seen.
The work of His hands is good. He is not served by human hands in any way shape or form .

 

[garee]

Gospel of the circumcision vs the gospel of the uncircumcision?

The ceremonial law as a shadow is used to represent the first born as our suffering husband Christ it applies to all of those elected to salvation . It was fulfilled when the Son of man suffered as our bloody husband by demonstrating the love of the father. .

We must look to the foundation for the ceremonial shadows. It is found in Exodus. The gospel preached before hand .The purpose of ceremonial laws to point ahead to one coming. Cutting the foreskin of a 8 year old is not a pagan design even though sacrificing children was. The 8th day was the best time to accomplish the shadow of Christ, our first born brethren .. . our bloody husband .

Exodus 4: 18-26 And Moses went and returned to Jethro his father in law, and said unto him, Let me go, I pray thee, and return unto my brethren which are in Egypt, and see whether they be yet alive. And Jethro said to Moses, Go in peace. And the Lord said unto Moses in Midian, Go, return into Egypt: for all the men are dead which sought thy life. And Moses took his wife and his sons, and set them upon an ass, and he returned to the land of Egypt: and Moses took the rod of God in his hand.And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

The Spirit of Christ rather than in a parable like that of Abraham and Isaac where God sent a Ram to represent the lord from killing Isaac .This time he sent a gentile Zipporah the daughter of Jethro a pagan priest enemies of the Jew. To represent the gospel beforehand. I would offer it is a excellent parallel parable as with Ruth .

Zipporah zipped up the understanding of circumcision. . A shadow of the Son of man to come. . Not judgable like the sabbaths or any ceremonial law . Cutting one self or other does not draw us closer to God. We walk by faith not after flesh and blood. But the Spirit that works in these earthen vessels.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[Dino246]

Merry Christmas, Garee!

Are you still trying to make God into a man? He is a eternal Spirit, without mother of father, without geanalolgy, without beginning of Spirit life or end of it. without flesh and blood.

God came in human flesh. Jesus is God.

That's a Catholic things that exalts Mary (corrupted flesh and blood) as queen of heaven. Some of the Jews follow the same law of fathers, as oral traditions of men. . making God into a man, therefore making sola scriptura without effect.

What the Catholics believe is irrelevant to this discussion.

Yes he asked a question. Why call me Good Master" then made a statement; "there is none good but one, (not two or three) that is, God"

Jesus knew fully what He was saying, and there was no denial of His own divinity in His question. Not even a hint. Jesus said elsewhere, "The Father and I are one."

God is not a man as us and neither is there any daysman as fleshly mediator set between the God not seen and man seen.

Your quotation of Job is irrelevant. Jesus isn't a daysman; he is the Mediator between God and humans.

Yes, the signified portion .Like spoken of in the opening of the book of Revelation1:1 not only sent (inspired) but he siginied that which he did send.. The signified tongues shows a parable is in view.

No, it doesn't. Not everything that is signified is a parable.

Like Luke with Lazarus and the rich man. Many take away the signified understanding as the tongue of God by literalizing it.

Apparently, you have not yet learned to distinguish between what in Scripture is to be taken literally and what is not.

There is no prescription that informs us without literalizing the word of God Jesus spoke not. His whole ministry was a parable proved by his action .You could say he was a walking parable.

The statement about Jesus only speaking in parables was limited to a particular context.

I added my opinion you added yours.

It was the practice under a name. .Just like the name Christian. He rebuked them for not following Christ rather than men .It applied to all the churches . Just like the warning to other sects in that section .

You are speculating and arguing on the basis of your speculation. That's a bad way to build an understanding of Scripture.

 

[garee]

Merry Christmas, Garee!

Thanks same to you and your family.

God clothed himself temporally in corrupted human flesh as the Son of man for a one time demonstration of the work that has been finished from the foundation of the world. He commands us even though some did know him after the flesh like Thomas .That Thomas is faithless when it comes to trusting God . The kingdom of God does not come by what the eyes see the temporal .The prescription for rightly dividing the parables must be used or person is considered faithless again like that of Thomas .

God is not a man as us.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

No power to be saved comes after what the eyes see called flesh and blood . No such thing as holiness of the flesh. That's a Catholic thing or Jehovah Witness . The power to believe God not seen comes by the unseen Holy Spirit as the Son of God.

Flesh = no power ...Spirit = power

Romans 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Not by his fleshly birth.

You are speculating and arguing on the basis of your speculation. That's a bad way to build an understanding of Scripture.

Yes it would be speculating. .Will you follow the commandment that informs us we know him no more after what the eyes see Therefore confirming God is not a man as us?

The question is how long is henceforth know we him no more by what the eyes see?.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

 

[Kim82]

Since works/fruits are a sign of your faith, and faith alone is dead/means you are not saved, can someone please explain to me what is happening here:

Romans 7:19 I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20 But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. 21 I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love God’s law with all my heart. 23 But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

 

[Kim82]

John 8:34 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

Romans 7:25 In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

Was Paul saved or not?