Not By Works

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NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Well it's a matter of maturity you see. Just like infants the newly saved need to be milk fed and as they mature sort of graduate to the meat. Some never grow up. I didn't believe in hell when I was first saved. It didn't make sense to my immature mind that an all loving, all forgiving God would make such a place but as I matured I came to realize it was devised for the Devil and the fallen angels and later as I became aware of the corruption and intentional preaching of false
gospels intended to tickle ears and pick the pockets of the foolish or immature like the name it and claim it/ prosperity doctrine gang does.

Many can't fathom Salvation is finished upon the circumcision of the heart and turn from grace back to the obsolete law, place their salvation in jeopardy also. I believe in hell now and it took 40 years for me to get this far.
It sure is a "matter of maturity!" It sure IS!

Tis the "some who NEVER grow up! NEVER "move beyond the principle doctrines of Christ", yet CONTINUE in their "peddling" their OSAS "false" doctrine/s, of not having to "war against", or as Paul put it? "STRUGGLE AGAINST "powers and principalities of darkness", "of spiritual wickedness in high places!"

Now! If the word "struggle against" doesn't mean "efforts, or works?"

Then what EXACTLY DOES it mean, to a "not by works" salvationist?

Their "love God, and yer neighbor like yerself and He'll take care of it for ya?"

Doesn't seem to "hold water", to what Paul was trying to teach. Does it?

One CANNOT, yea? MUST not combine Jesus' FIRST commandment, with the 2nd!

Without putting oneself in "jeopardy" of worshiping the "created" (neighbor) more so then the "CREATOR!"

Meaning? "The Law" was NEVER abolished! By Jesus' appearance on the scene!

The "law" concerning the "PROPHECIES of Jesus' COMING ONTO THE SCENE?" By God's faithful servants the prophets? Was FULFILLED, by Jesus being born of a virgin, from the line and tribe of King David!

Which caused a "change in the Holy Priesthood!"

Yet, the "original 10 commandments?" Were NEVER "rendered obsolete", by Christ's "being sent!"

 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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You're missing it.
The passage is saying this person is to be turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh so their spirit may/might be saved when Jesus comes back.

"...deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." - 1 Corinthians 5:5

But why does that have to happen to him if he is already saved and can't lose that salvation? Not only that, the verb 'may be saved' is in the Subjunctive mood which means this:

"Is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances."
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/5/1/t_conc_1067005


So, not only does he have to be turned over to satan to be saved when Jesus comes back, it's not certain that doing that will work! Yet, once saved always saved says 1) this person can't lose his salvation in the first place, and 2) even though the saved person may fall they will come back and will remain saved no matter what. Once saved always saved loses on both counts in this one verse alone.
Good points.
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
1,257
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Walk trough the valley
how can "you" know someone has good works? And is not just religious?

You can't so what good is it?
God does not need it, You can't use it to determine someone elses salvation, so other than you examining you own faith, what good is it?

Last night I realised what conversation I stumbled into when I replied here, with: We are not to compare ourselves with others. If God forgave the ones who killed Hm dont you think He can forgive everyone else of dead works, as long as they learn to Love and forgive, they are forgiven and walking in Love is not dead work.

Now I realise the conversation was about those who are saved through the fire but lose their reward, and those who have part in the first Resurrection: to rule with Christ for a thousand years. Though those involved in the discution may not have been aware of the difference between the two groups either. We may be forgiven and remain among "The rest of the dead are not raised until the thousand years are fulfilled."
Jesus did not seem to care to make a clear distinction between the two groups except hinting that going on to perfection refered to being a disciple, "He that ensures to the end will be saved." In His first reply to the rich man, Jesus did not make mention of the first Comandment: Loving God with all our heart... until He said "If you will be perfect, go sell all that you have, give to the poor, and you will have treasures in heaven, then come follow Me." Obeying the caling to go on to perfection is only possible by the Holy Spirit. The disciples failed until after the resurrection when Jesus said to Peter, "Foĺlow me." It's possible that Jesus was not calling the rich man to follow Him but only showing that it was not possible with man but by the Holy Spirit. Jesus forgiving those who killed Him is not the same as being called as a disciple to go on to perfection. The ones who killed Him were unbelievers, but Jesus said that those who delivered Him to them (the religious leaders) had the greater sin: Of rejecting the Holy Spirit, again this does not necessarily apply to other religious leaders such as Catholics or Boudists who believe that on a higher plane they become one with christians. They may be with those who don't have part in the first Resurrection. But obviously we are not the Judges. For what it's worth I will post this as a topic Going on to perfection as well.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
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You're missing it.
The passage is saying this person is to be turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh so their spirit may/might be saved when Jesus comes back.

"...deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." - 1 Corinthians 5:5

But why does that have to happen to him if he is already saved and can't lose that salvation? Not only that, the verb 'may be saved' is in the Subjunctive mood which means this:

"Is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances."
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/5/1/t_conc_1067005


So, not only does he have to be turned over to satan to be saved when Jesus comes back, it's not certain that doing that will work! Yet, once saved always saved says 1) this person can't lose his salvation in the first place, and 2) even though the saved person may fall they will come back and will remain saved no matter what. Once saved always saved loses on both counts in this one verse alone.
This person is eternally saved but may forfeit his inheritance to reign with Christ at His second coming. Notice the soul is not mentioned, but the spirit. Two different things.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
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It sure is a "matter of maturity!" It sure IS!

Tis the "some who NEVER grow up! NEVER "move beyond the principle doctrines of Christ", yet CONTINUE in their "peddling" their OSAS "false" doctrine/s, of not having to "war against", or as Paul put it? "STRUGGLE AGAINST "powers and principalities of darkness", "of spiritual wickedness in high places!"

Now! If the word "struggle against" doesn't mean "efforts, or works?"

Then what EXACTLY DOES it mean, to a "not by works" salvationist?

Their "love God, and yer neighbor like yerself and He'll take care of it for ya?"

Doesn't seem to "hold water", to what Paul was trying to teach. Does it?

One CANNOT, yea? MUST not combine Jesus' FIRST commandment, with the 2nd!

Without putting oneself in "jeopardy" of worshiping the "created" (neighbor) more so then the "CREATOR!"

Meaning? "The Law" was NEVER abolished! By Jesus' appearance on the scene!

The "law" concerning the "PROPHECIES of Jesus' COMING ONTO THE SCENE?" By God's faithful servants the prophets? Was FULFILLED, by Jesus being born of a virgin, from the line and tribe of King David!

Which caused a "change in the Holy Priesthood!"

Yet, the "original 10 commandments?" Were NEVER "rendered obsolete", by Christ's "being sent!"
Romans 3v31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.


What they truly do not understand is that we are not JUSTIFIED by the law, but rather our conduct is still lawful. We don't go around breaking the 10 commandments because the LAW was fulfilled by Christ. Like going to covet your neighbours wife or goods, murdering, stealing, giving false witness.....etc.

Another one that they won't like.

1 John 3
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Yet any mention of the Law is considered works.

 
Nov 16, 2019
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No. Not all osas people agree with Calvinism.
I know that. But all once saved always saved doctrines are rooted in what Calvin taught.

Love him, or hate him, or just take what you like about him, his misunderstanding of election is probably the main reason we have a church that so whole heatedly embraces the notion that you can not lose your salvation. Because, obviously, if his understanding of 'election' is true and that you really are a believer because God created you to be one and there's nothing you or satan can do about that, then that does indeed have to mean you would not be able to lose what God has predetermined ahead of time that you will be created to be. But, as we can see from the scriptures themselves, saved people really do fall away into the indeterminate state of whether or not they will come back to faith, and drastic measures are commanded to try to get the wayward believer to come back to faith and repentance so he can be saved when Jesus comes back, because he's not going to be if he remains in the condition he is in.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
There is only one Truth and only one Gospel that saves.
If salvation includes "maturity without works?

Then you would be better served without having been "saved" in the first place!

For what IS "faith WITHOUT WORKS?"

DEAD!

Is such a "dead" faith indicative of one still being saved? :unsure:

It IS however, indicative of one having been "CUT OFF!"

Does this mean they are still saved? :unsure:

Jesus doesn't think so!

Although they "maintain the claim" of "knowing" Him?

It doesn't SEEM, according to scripture, that this "knowing" is RECIPROCATED!

Does it?
 
Nov 16, 2019
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This person is eternally saved but may forfeit his inheritance to reign with Christ at His second coming. Notice the soul is not mentioned, but the spirit. Two different things.
Just the point I wanted to make.
It's talking about his spirit being saved.
This has nothing to do with heavenly status or rewards.
This is about salvation itself.

Oh, and by the way. You either have the inheritance, or you do not. You are either in the kingdom living in eternal life, or you are not. Those outside are condemned, not saved.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
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This is true, many are very very much against it. Especially most of the independent fundamental baptist folks, the KJV kind.

I still do find it FUNNY because the KJV was translated by CALVINISTS. So yeah.. BUT HEY it is what it is.


What most Christians do not realized about the KJV, is it was mostly just a PARAPHRASE from the 5 or 6 OLDER English Versions, to update the English in the older version, to the English Language that King James spoke. The Original Preface of the 1611 KJV is hard to find, but the Original Translation Team actually admitted it in the 1611 Original Preface to the KJV. When they ran into difficult verses, they sometimes referred to the LATIN Translation, and the Septuagint, BOTH WITH KNOWN ERRORS. That info, would SHOCK most KJV ONLY believers. Here is one photostatic copy of it, but it is hard to read in places:

https://library.osu.edu/innovation-...bible/sidebars/the-translators-preface-to-the

Here it is RETYPED:

http://www.ccel.org/bible/kjv/preface/pref1.htm

You really NEED to READ the Original Preface of the 1611 KJV, especially if you think it was a translation for the oldest original manuscripts, because they admitted that they paraphrased lots of it from earlier English Versions. I think many will find they have put the KJV on WAY TOO HIGH OF A PEDISTAL. Here, I have pulled some excerpts out for you:​

QUOTE:​
The Translators To The Reader
Zeale to promote the common good, whether it be by devising any thing our selves, or revising that which hath bene laboured by others, . . .​
. . .​
But how shall men meditate in that, which they cannot understand? How shall they understand that which is kept close in an unknowen tongue? . . . so lest the Church be driven to the like exigent, it is necessary to have translations in a readinesse. . .​
. . .​
Yet it seemed good to the holy Ghost and to them, to take that which they found, (the same being for the greatest part true and sufficient) rather then by making a new, in that new world and greene age of the Church, to expose themselves to many exceptions and cavillations, as though they made a Translation to serve their owne turne, and therefore bearing witnesse to themselves, their witnesse not to be regarded. This may be supposed to bee some cause, why the Translation of the Seventie was allowed to passe for currant. . . . he holdeth the Authours thereof not onely for Interpreters, but also for Prophets in some respect: and Justinian the Emperour enjoyning the Jewes his subjects to use specially the Translation of the Seventie, rendreth this reason thereof, because they were as it were enlighted with propheticall grace. . . .​
. . . This is the translation of the Seventy Interpreters, com- monly so called, which prepared the way for our Saviour among the Gen- tiles by written preaching . . . It is certain, that that Translation was not so sound and so perfect, but it needed in many places correc- tion; . . . {KNOWN ERRORS in the Septuagint} . . . that the Seventy were Interpreters, they were not Prophets; they did many things well, as learned men; but yet as men they stumbled and fell, one while through oversight, another while through ignorance, yea, sometimes they may be noted to add to the Original, and sometimes to take from it; which made the Apostles to leave them many times, when they left the Hebrew, and to deliver the sense thereof according to the truth of the word, as the spirit gave them utterance. This may suffice touching the Greek Translations of the Old Testament. . . .
(and Saint Jerome affirmeth as much) that the Seventie were Interpreters, they were not Prophets; they did many things well, as learned men; but yet as men they stumbled and fell, one while through oversight, another while through ignorance, yea, sometimes they may be noted to adde to the Originall, and sometimes to take from it; which made the Apostles to leave them many times, when they left the Hebrew, and to deliver the sence thereof according to the trueth of the word, as the spirit gave them utterance. This may suffice touching the Greeke Translations of the old Testament. . . .​
. . .
. . . But now the Latin Translations were too many to be all good, for they were infinite (Latini Interprets nullo modo numerari possunt, saith S. Augustine.) [S. Augustin. de doctr. Christ. lib 2 cap II]. Again they were not out of the Hebrew fountain (we speak of the Latin Translations of the Old Testament) but out of the Greek stream, therefore the Greek being not altogether clear, the Latin derived from it must needs be muddy. . . .
There were also within a few hundreth yeeres after CHRIST, translations many into the Latine tongue: for this tongue also was very fit to convey the Law and the Gospel by, because in those times very many Countreys of the West, yea of the South, East and North, spake or understood Latine, being made Provinces to the Romanes. But now the Latine Translations were too many to be all good, . . . Now the Church of Rome . . . Yea, so unwilling they are to communicate the Scriptures to the peoples understanding in any sort, that they are not ashamed to confesse, that wee forced them to translate it into English against their wills. . . .
. . .
. . . the same will shine as gold more brightly, being rubbed and polished; also, if anything be halting, or superfluous, or not so agreeable to the original, the same may be corrected, and the truth set in place. { KNOWN ERRORS } . . .
. . .
Yet for all that, as nothing is begun and perfited at the same time, and the later thoughts are thought to be the wiser: so, if we building upon their foundation that went before us, and being holpen by their labours, doe endevour to make that better which they left so good; no man, we are sure, hath cause to mislike us; they, we persuade our selves, if they were alive, would thanke us. . . .
. . .
to have the translations of the Bible maturely considered of and examined. For by this meanes it commeth to passe, that whatsoever is sound alreadie (and all is sound for substance, in one or other of our editions, and the worst of ours farre better then their autentike vulgar) the same will shine as gold more brightly, being rubbed and polished; also if any thing be halting, or superfluous, or not so agreeable to the originall, the same may bee corrected, and the trueth set in place. . . .
. . .
Now to the later we answere; that wee doe not deny, nay wee affirme and avow, that the very meanest { poorest } translation of the Bible in English, set foorth by men of our profession (for wee have seene none of theirs of the whole Bible as yet) containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God. . . .
. . .
Yet before we end, we must answere a third cavill and objection of theirs against us, for altering and amending our Taanslations [sic] so oft; wherein truely they deale hardly, and strangely with us. { The very same thing you do to MODERN Translations. } For to whom ever was it imputed for a fault (by such as were wise) to goe over that which hee had done, and to amend it where he saw cause? . . .
. . .
But the difference that appeareth betweene our Translations, and our often correcting of them, is the thing that wee are specially charged with; let us see therefore whether they themselves bee without fault this way, (if it be to be counted a fault, to correct) and whether they bee fit men to throw stones at us: But it is high time to leave them, and to shew in briefe what wee proposed to our selves, and what course we held in this our perusall and survay of the Bible. Truly (good Christian Reader) wee never thought from the beginning, that we should neede to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, (for then the imputation of Sixtus had bene true in some sort, that our people had bene fed with gall of Dragons in stead of wine, with whey in stead of milke, but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principall good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath bene our indeavour, that our marke. . . .

{ That makes it a PARAPHRASE and not an actual Translation from the original languages. They only polished known errors and updated the language for King James.}
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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I know that. But all once saved always saved doctrines are rooted in what Calvin taught.

Love him, or hate him, or just take what you like about him, his misunderstanding of election is probably the main reason we have a church that so whole heatedly embraces the notion that you can not lose your salvation.
I disagree with Calvin's understanding of "election"... and my view is not too far off from what you had put in an earlier post (without my agreeing with your take that it's possible to "lose/forfeit" salvation)

Because, obviously, if his understanding of 'election' is true and that you really are a believer because God created you to be one and there's nothing you or satan can do about that, then that does indeed have to mean you would not be able to lose what God has predetermined ahead of time that you will be created to be. But, as we can see from the scriptures themselves, saved people really do fall away into the indeterminate state of whether or not they will come back to faith, […]
Here's another post I'd made on the word "chosen" as used in a different context:

[quoting that post]

"...Of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," 2Th2:13 [in some translations, which I see as accurate] says "hath chosen [G138 - heilato/haireף] you firstfruit [aparche]"--The "hath chosen [G138 - heilato/haireף]" is a DIFFERENT Greek word to the usual "chosen" word used when it speaks of God's chosen/choice, and is "probably akin to" (according to some lexicons or concordances) the "G142 - airo" word ("I raise, lift up, take away, remove"); https://biblehub.com/greek/138.htm (scroll down to where it says "Strong's Exhaustive Concordance" and the highlighted "airo" which will take you to THAT definition)--Again, this is the ONLY entity ['the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY'] to which the "Rapture" pertains (not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods--but your question has to do with "resurrection," so back to that...)"

[end quoting my post]

[further...]

[note: I see this as also being RELATED to the phrasing/wording in Rev12:13, where it says, "[the woman] which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730 - arsena/arren* (note: NO word "child" is in this verse)]; as well as RELATED also to Micah 5:3 [distinct from v.2 about Jesus' Own birth]"Therefore will he give them up [meaning, Israel], until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel." [same as the other "UNTIL/TILL" and "RETURN" passages re: Israel]

--*G730 - arsena/arren - "probably from airo [G142--see above]" [quote from BibleHub]

[end quoting further post on that subject]


My point being, I believe there is more to be understood about this subject of "chosen" (that differs from the Calvinist viewpoint [as in "chosen individually [to salvation], BEFORE TIME"... but maintains the "eternal security of those in Christ" aspect)
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Just the point I wanted to make.
It's talking about his spirit being saved.
This has nothing to do with heavenly status or rewards.
This is about salvation itself.
Consider:

there is some question (between "versions") as to whether this text states,

--"in the day of the Lord Jesus" [which would be the same as saying "in the day of Christ Jesus/our Lord Jesus Christ"--the heavenly aspect, when WE are UP THERE *WITH* Him, per "our Rapture" event (pertaining SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"/saved persons)];

--OR that it says, "in the day of the Lord" [the EARTHLY time-period of judgments unfolding over some time, like here: https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/5-5.htm (which would pertain to an "unsaved" person who needs to come to faith in Christ, within the [trib/]yrs of judgments)]



[plz excuse the formatting of my previous post... the bold went on too long :D and I had the last parenthesis in the wrong position too. lol]
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Romans 3v31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.


What they truly do not understand is that we are not JUSTIFIED by the law, but rather our conduct is still lawful. We don't go around breaking the 10 commandments because the LAW was fulfilled by Christ. Like going to covet your neighbours wife or goods, murdering, stealing, giving false witness.....etc.

Another one that they won't like.

1 John 3
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Yet any mention of the Law is considered works.
From what I can "see?" It's like in their believing in Christ, and being "led" by the Holy Spirit? They have YET to go UNTO the Father Himself, with "cross on back", so to speak, after being "confessed before the Father!"
Not "willing" in doing spiritual sacrifices that are even acceptable to God by Jesus, in their building a "spiritual house", worthy of even "entering" into the Holy Priesthood! :cry:

In such quantites and stages of "unbelief", they have been "cut off!"

Yet? In their "unbelief?" Why should they believe they have been "cut off?"

I mean, even Israel didn't believe they were "cut off!"

So why should these "gentiles" believe ANY differently?

Yet, they maintain, they are of the "body of Christ."

Inferring by insinuation, that ones "like" us? Are not!

I'm "glad" I'M not of "that" body!

By their "mocking, scoffing, name calling, and other ways and means of showing their "truer colors?"

They are showing "which" body, they really are of!

I would like to be wrong!

But, I ain't "seein'" it!

Then again? But "Who am I?"


Ya see? There's MORE then Jesus that we belong to!
This "Holy Priesthood?" Is the "Order of Melchizedek!"
It's a FOREVER Priesthood!
FOREVER, goes back in time, just as much as it goes forwards in time!
What OSAS'ers "see" as "works salvationists?"
Is not "efforts" FOR salvation!
It's efforts in "ASSURING our ELECTION!"
The "election" of being chosen to this Holy Priesthood!
From before the "foundation" of this current "earth/heaven age!
It's more then just words!




 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
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Just the point I wanted to make.
It's talking about his spirit being saved.
This has nothing to do with heavenly status or rewards.
This is about salvation itself.

Oh, and by the way. You either have the inheritance, or you do not. You are either in the kingdom living in eternal life, or you are not. Those outside are condemned, not saved.
Believers can lose inheritance by earthly living but their soul is still saved.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
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Anaheim, Cali.
It sure is a "matter of maturity!" It sure IS!

Tis the "some who NEVER grow up! NEVER "move beyond the principle doctrines of Christ", yet CONTINUE in their "peddling" their OSAS "false" doctrine/s, of not having to "war against", or as Paul put it? "STRUGGLE AGAINST "powers and principalities of darkness", "of spiritual wickedness in high places!"

Now! If the word "struggle against" doesn't mean "efforts, or works?"

Then what EXACTLY DOES it mean, to a "not by works" salvationist?

Their "love God, and yer neighbor like yerself and He'll take care of it for ya?"

Doesn't seem to "hold water", to what Paul was trying to teach. Does it?

One CANNOT, yea? MUST not combine Jesus' FIRST commandment, with the 2nd!

Without putting oneself in "jeopardy" of worshiping the "created" (neighbor) more so then the "CREATOR!"

Meaning? "The Law" was NEVER abolished! By Jesus' appearance on the scene!

The "law" concerning the "PROPHECIES of Jesus' COMING ONTO THE SCENE?" By God's faithful servants the prophets? Was FULFILLED, by Jesus being born of a virgin, from the line and tribe of King David!

Which caused a "change in the Holy Priesthood!"

Yet, the "original 10 commandments?" Were NEVER "rendered obsolete", by Christ's "being sent!"
Love is the first fruit of the spirit. And after reading about what happens to people that forsake grace in favor of the law, I have changed my OSAS position. But the spirit will manifest good works in it's own time and salvation does not come by works so we have nothing to brag about for doing them. Salvation will come before works count for anything. And they are not for Salvation but rather to establish our roles in the new kingdom to come.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Consider:
there is some question (between "versions") as to whether this text states,
--"in the day of the Lord Jesus" [which would be the same as saying "in the day of Christ Jesus/our Lord Jesus Christ"--the heavenly aspect, when WE are UP THERE *WITH* Him, per "our Rapture" event (pertaining SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"/saved persons)];
--OR that it says, "in the day of the Lord" [the EARTHLY time-period of judgments unfolding over some time, like here: https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/5-5.htm (which would pertain to an "unsaved" person who needs to come to faith in Christ, within the [trib/]yrs of judgments)]
Had meant to add to that ^ post:

1 Sexual immorality is actually reported among you, and sexual immorality such as is not even among the pagans, so as for one to have the wife of the father. 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, so that the one having done this deed might be taken out of your midst!
[...]
9 I wrote to you in the letter not to associate with the sexually immoral, 10 not altogether with the sexually immoral of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or idolaters—since then you would need to depart from the world. 11 But now, I wrote to you not to associate with anyone being designated [G3687 (definition includes: "professing")] a brother if he is sexually immoral or a coveter, or an idolater or verbal abuser, or a drunkard or swindler—with such a one not even to eat.
12 For what is it to me to judge those outside? Do you not judge those within? 13 But God will judge those outside. “Expel the evil out from among yourselves.”

Note "G3687" is not saying the person DEFINITELY IS "a brother" ;) … but one "being designated [/professing (to be), or BEING *called* one by others]"
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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That's what gets me!
These OSAS'ers, claiming to be "of" or are "the body of Christ", don't/won't (or can't) recognize "other" parts of the "body of Christ!"

As there certainly is an intolerance in their thoughts, and posts!
A "certain" "cultic fascist fanaticism" within the OSAS'er camp!
Which is CERTAINLY "Christlike!"....NOT!!!!!

"let's just "ignore" those parts, and passages (cherry pick), which "offend", so that it may "appeal" MORE to the masses!"
"let us make the hearts of the righteous sad, and strengthen the hands of the wicked by PROMISING them LIFE ETERNAL!" :unsure:
Not ever, or even realizing, that by doing so? Their "roots" never become "strong", nor "deep" enough in "standing" against the "wicked one/s!"


:cry::cry::cry:

WE recognize any Born Again Believer, who has proven his Born Again Status by HIS FRUIT.

Maybe you should learn what spiritual fruit is?


Matthew 7:20 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.


Every Churchgoer can all himself or herself a disciple of Jesus Christ, which is only a Follower of Jesus Christ.

But FEW of them are BORN AGAIN, and ONLY Born Again Believers are SAVED!

Most of us believe in the Rapture, or Calling Out of the Bride of Christ; most of us believe it could happen at any time, so we are always ready. So IF it happens during the Worship Hour, in the twinkling of an eye, only Born Again Believers will be Taken. The rest of the congregation will still be in their Pews.


The is only meant to be an example. So no offense to THESE BELIEVERS. This is a GROWING Church, hoping to see the Pews FULL in a few years. IF every seat was filled, then at least this many or more would be left, after the Calling Out of the Bride has taken place.

You want us to believe that you are BORN AGAIN, then manifest some spiritual FRUIT for us to see. Just so you know argumentative is BAD FRUIT. Such as the line: A "certain" "cultic fascist fanaticism" within the OSAS'er camp!

We do not believe that every Church going follower of Jesus, are going to be SAVED, but every Born Again CHRISTIAN WILL BE SAVED.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Love is the first fruit of the spirit. And after reading about what happens to people that forsake grace in favor of the law, I have changed my OSAS position. But the spirit will manifest good works in it's own time and salvation does not come by works so we have nothing to brag about for doing them. Salvation will come before works count for anything. And they are not for Salvation but rather to establish our roles in the new kingdom to come.
I'd say love is the "greatest" of the fruit of the Spirit.
Yet, love, isn't much good, when the rest of the fruit of the Spirit, is tossed aside, ignored, or forsaken for love, now is it or would it be?
You think the spirit of anti christ does not know this also?

As far as "bragging?"
I don't see myself as bragging. Rather as stating things, that needs be adhered, in the "keeping" of one's election "assured."
I know I've said it at least several times in the past. It "looks" like "works for, and or maintaining salvation", when it's works in the "keeping" of one's election assured.
Salvation, is a gift!
The "keeping" and the maintaining of "election?"
Is "using" the gift, correctly!
Because, both can be lost!
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,516
113
Anaheim, Cali.
I'd say love is the "greatest" of the fruit of the Spirit.
Yet, love, isn't much good, when the rest of the fruit of the Spirit, is tossed aside, ignored, or forsaken for love, now is it or would it be?
You think the spirit of anti christ does not know this also?

As far as "bragging?"
I don't see myself as bragging. Rather as stating things, that needs be adhered, in the "keeping" of one's election "assured."
I know I've said it at least several times in the past. It "looks" like "works for, and or maintaining salvation", when it's works in the "keeping" of one's election assured.
Salvation, is a gift!
The "keeping" and the maintaining of "election?"
Is "using" the gift, correctly!
Because, both can be lost!
I think lost is the wrong term these days as lost sounds like an accident. Forsaken, disregarded or abandoned would be more to the point in my understanding of English in these days.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
WE recognize any Born Again Believer, who has proven his Born Again Status by HIS FRUIT.

Maybe you should learn what spiritual fruit is?


Matthew 7:20 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.


Every Churchgoer can all himself or herself a disciple of Jesus Christ, which is only a Follower of Jesus Christ.

But FEW of them are BORN AGAIN, and ONLY Born Again Believers are SAVED!

Most of us believe in the Rapture, or Calling Out of the Bride of Christ; most of us believe it could happen at any time, so we are always ready. So IF it happens during the Worship Hour, in the twinkling of an eye, only Born Again Believers will be Taken. The rest of the congregation will still be in their Pews.


The is only meant to be an example. So no offense to THESE BELIEVERS. This is a GROWING Church, hoping to see the Pews FULL in a few years. IF every seat was filled, then at least this many or more would be left, after the Calling Out of the Bride has taken place.

You want us to believe that you are BORN AGAIN, then manifest some spiritual FRUIT for us to see. Just so you know argumentative is BAD FRUIT. Such as the line: A "certain" "cultic fascist fanaticism" within the OSAS'er camp!

We do not believe that every Church going follower of Jesus, are going to be SAVED, but every Born Again CHRISTIAN WILL BE SAVED.
Well? I don't believe in the rapture!

Least not in the "sense" it's "flying away!"

"We all shall be "changed", is not "flying away" far as I'm concerned!

Fact is? I'm against any teaching, that gives the believer any cause for justifying the "not growing spiritually mature", by not "moving beyond the principle doctrines of Christ."
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
113
"We all shall be "changed", is not "flying away" far as I'm concerned!
^ This is very true... the word for "shall be CHANGED" is a very different word and distinct concept from that of "shall be CAUGHT UP/AWAY" ... yep, two entirely distinct things. It's not correct to conflate the two, as some attempt to do. ;) [both are TRUE, however :D ]