What I want to do I don't : What I don't I do

[Adstar]

You then say that Paul lived according to the Flesh in his daily walk. If you assert that, that you assert that Paul is not be saved. You then assert that Paul is no different to the unregenerated man (for that is who he is describing). You then assert that the New Birth has no impact on a believer versus the unregenerated man. You then also overrule everything he says hereafter about the victory that Life in the Spirit has over the Flesh.

Nah - I will stick with what it plainly says.

What i asserted i asserted.. You say i assert a lot of things that i did not assert.. You put words into my mouth that i never said.. You gave false witness to my post..

No matter how much a person preaches sinlessness in the flesh they will never come to the point of living a sinless life .. They can preach it all they want and delude even themselves that they have have made it to a state of sinlessness but the truth is seen by the LORD day to day.. He shall not be fooled by such preaching because He see's all and knows all..

 

[Chris1975]

What i asserted i asserted.. You say i assert a lot of things that i did not assert.. You put words into my mouth that i never said.. You gave false witness to my post..

No matter how much a person preaches sinlessness in the flesh they will never come to the point of living a sinless life .. They can preach it all they want and delude even themselves that they have have made it to a state of sinlessness but the truth is seen by the LORD day to day.. He shall not be fooled by such preaching because He see's all and knows all..

I have not preached total sinlessness. I am only quoting scriptures which are plain to see. I realise that doesn't match your understanding at present.

You reject the work of sanctification by denying the power of the cross. This either means:
1) You don't like the scriptures according to holiness (which is making God in your image - a God you are comfortable with)
AND/OR
2) You don't believe that the unregenerated man and the regenerated man behave ANY differently. The only difference is one is saved and the other not.

By your interpretation, Paul (who has received Christ) struggles with exactly the same problems as the unregenerated man (who hasn't received Christ). Then what does this verse mean to you:
Romans 8v2-4 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Don't lie to yourself. The scriptures will not bend to your will.

 

[Chris1975]

I preach life in the Spirit (which is the complete counter to living in the flesh). Against this message, you kick.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You then say that Paul lived according to the Flesh in his daily walk. If you assert that, that you assert that Paul is not be saved. You then assert that Paul is no different to the unregenerated man (for that is who he is describing). You then assert that the New Birth has no impact on a believer versus the unregenerated man. You then also overrule everything he says hereafter about the victory that Life in the Spirit has over the Flesh.
Nah - I will stick with what it plainly says.

Would you say that the people Paul is talking to in the following text were "saved" persons, or "not saved" persons, or perhaps (according to your viewpoint) "saved-but-not-ultimately, because they were not walking-in-victory, so were mostly-on-the-losing-end-of-salvation [-and-probably-already-lost-it-totally]"??


1 Corinthians 3 -

1 And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as fleshly—as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, for not yet were you able. In fact, now you are still not able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For where jealousy and strife are among you, are you not fleshly, and are walking according to man? 4 For when one might say, “I indeed am of Paul,” but another, “I of Apollos,” are you not fleshly?

5 Who then is Apollos? And who is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord has given to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God kept it growing. 7 So neither the one planting nor the one watering is anything, but only God, the One giving growth. 8 Now the one planting and the one watering are one, and each will receive the own reward, according to the own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ What I put in that post was in view of what you had written here:

2) You don't believe that the unregenerated man and the regenerated man behave ANY differently. The only difference is one is saved and the other not.

By your interpretation, Paul (who has received Christ) struggles with exactly the same problems as the unregenerated man (who hasn't received Christ). […]

Don't lie to yourself. The scriptures will not bend to your will.

So, are those in 1Cor3 (quoted in previous post) "regenerated" or "unregenerated," according to your view??

 

[Chris1975]

Would you say that the people Paul is talking to in the following text were "saved" persons, or "not saved" persons, or perhaps (according to your viewpoint) "saved-but-not-ultimately, because they were not walking-in-victory, so were mostly-on-the-losing-end-of-salvation [-and-probably-already-lost-it-totally]"??


1 Corinthians 3 -

1 And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as fleshly—as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, for not yet were you able. In fact, now you are still not able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For where jealousy and strife are among you, are you not fleshly, and are walking according to man? 4 For when one might say, “I indeed am of Paul,” but another, “I of Apollos,” are you not fleshly?

5 Who then is Apollos? And who is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord has given to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God kept it growing. 7 So neither the one planting nor the one watering is anything, but only God, the One giving growth. 8 Now the one planting and the one watering are one, and each will receive the own reward, according to the own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

Hi DW, Paul addresses his letter as follows: Romans 1v7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:

So it is clear that this is the church in Rome (those who have confessed Jesus Christ). Like you say above, there are various levels of believers within the body (by this I mean young in Christ and Mature in Christ). However the passage in Romans 7 and 8 is not addressed to any one part of this spectrum, but to the church as a whole. It is just as much applicable to the young believer as it is to the mature. All have been given the new nature at rebirth.

Think for a second of someone you know that is a fairly new believer in Christ. They are, I would hazard to guess, vastly different to the person they were prior to conversion. I have seen countless examples of this, as I am sure you have too. The change is powerful and immediate. They are not perfect in all they do, as they learn and yield to the leading of the Spirit. That's understandable. But what you don't see them doing is actively wallowing in the mire that they came from.

Yet Satan (like Pharoah) doesn't like to let ones that he had before go. God will allow the enemy access to tempt the believer. And the fleshly nature within the believer wants to respond to such temptation. It is this that Paul addresses in these verses. That we are not to live according to the flesh but According to the Spirit.

Eve, in the garden was a fully fledged believer in God. God allowed her to be tempted. 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was [a]pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. This is the first recorded instance where man(kind) took their eyes off God and instead looked to SELF. When Adam fell and the judgement came, mankind was at that instant enslaved.

The cross restores authority, through Christ, for man to once again be led by the Spirit and not by the flesh.

 

[Chris1975]

^ What I put in that post was in view of what you had written here:






So, are those in 1Cor3 (quoted in previous post) "regenerated" or "unregenerated," according to your view??

Regenerated. For only the regenerated will be able to respond to the call that Paul has to them towards holiness. What this regenerated means is that they are born again believers. Their spirit is alive. Look against at Pauls warning -


1 And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as fleshly—as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, for not yet were you able. In fact, now you are still not able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For where jealousy and strife are among you, are you not fleshly, and are walking according to man? 4 For when one might say, “I indeed am of Paul,” but another, “I of Apollos,” are you not fleshly?

This is certainly not a soft puffy cloud exhortation, but a firm rebuke.

And those who live according to the flesh will die. They are to put to death the misdeeds of the body. This same Paul said these same words.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Think for a second of someone you know that is a fairly new believer in Christ. They are, I would hazard to guess, vastly different to the person they were prior to conversion. I have seen countless examples of this, as I am sure you have too. The change is powerful and immediate. They are not perfect in all they do, as they learn and yield to the leading of the Spirit. That's understandable. But what you don't see them doing is actively wallowing in the mire that they came from.

Okay, so in view of what you have written here ^ , do you think:

--Paul's struggle in Romans 7 was a description of him "actively wallowing in the mire" (as a still-unregenerate person, as you said); or

--Paul's struggle in Romans 7 was a description of him "doing what he didn't want to do, and not doing what he did want to do" (as a regenerate person, who did not yet know of his resources in Christ [for use in getting/walking-in-victory], as opposed to "trying-and-failing" [by means of "the law" rather than by means of "the law of the SPIRIT of LIFE *in Christ Jesus*], as I said)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Verse 24a brings it to the present: 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

When writing this he was already delivered through Jesus Christ. So why would he ask the question? Its because he is using this verse as the connecting bridge between his old life without Christ, and his new Life in Christ.

This is sad,

I guess it’s good to know you have arrived and do not struggle with sin, your probably the only person ever to reach that milestone

paul was asking who is able to free him from his body of death, his flesh that continually wants to do what is not right, a struggle all believers have (well I guess no you)

he also answered

only through Christ,

Christ is our freedom from now until we die, when we do not look at him, by seeking after the spirit, we fail, failure leads to sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You even left out the last half of verse 25 so you could do violence to the scriptures. The closing part of that statement makes it abundantly clear that he is talking about the internal struggle of the Christian.
Do Not Address me in Attempt to Twist Scripture! I find it abhorrent.

Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Romans 7:25 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.7.25.NASB

Amen, both present tense, both accusing at the time paul wrote this

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Notice I put in verse 24a …..see, wasn't trying to be deceptive at all. I have also in turn, quoted the entire section in the original OP. No removal of anything there either.
So lets discuss the second half of the verse (which wasn't the point I was making, but happy to discuss it). He says the following:

Romans 7
24b So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. There are two parts. The mind serving the law of God. The Flesh nature (which still remains with us until we get new bodies in the glorification) still serves the law of sin. So what is the solution to the problem. Jesus Christ. Look at what the NEXT TWO verses in Romans 8 are:

Romans 8
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who[a] do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

I will spell this out for you since you attacked me as being disingenuous. I will use CAPS so that your eyes may see.
DO YOU SEE THE TWO RED HIGHLIGHTED PARTS ABOVE. DO YOU SEE WHAT LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS DOES TO THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. IT MEANS, AND I AM SPELLING IT OUT FOR YOU, THAT ALTHOUGH WE CARRY AROUND OUR SINFUL NATURE IN THE FLESH, WE NO LONGER HAVE TO YIELD TO ITS LUSTS BECAUSE LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST HAS MORE POWER.

DOES NOT HAVE DOES NOT EQUAL WE WILL NOT

that was pauls message.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You then say that Paul lived according to the Flesh in his daily walk.

no one said or insisted this

as usual, you twist what people say like you do scripture

If you would take one minute to stop, assuming what everyone is saying,you would make life on yourself and everyone else so much easier

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I preach life in the Spirit (which is the complete counter to living in the flesh). Against this message, you kick.

yet again another false accusation

its almost time to just stop responding to this man, he sins with almost every post in accusations yet professes to be preaching against sin,

he can not even live up to the standard he demands of others,

 

[posthuman]

For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

this is all written in present tense. there's no honest way to deny that. the text is what it is.

there is a sharp distinction made here, between what man does and what man wills and it is quite poignantly stated that they do not necessarily agree with each other. rather strikingly Paul identifies personhood with the desire of his heart, rather than his works. if he sins, it is not he who does it, but "sin dwelling in him"

i rather think that when he writes in Romans 8:2 that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has set him free from the law of sin and death, it has something to do with what he describes here in chapter 7. the victory isn't in a righteousness of works, but of faith.

 

[Chris1975]

This is sad,

I guess it’s good to know you have arrived and do not struggle with sin, your probably the only person ever to reach that milestone

paul was asking who is able to free him from his body of death, his flesh that continually wants to do what is not right, a struggle all believers have (well I guess no you)

he also answered

only through Christ,

Christ is our freedom from now until we die, when we do not look at him, by seeking after the spirit, we fail, failure leads to sin.

Another unscriptural response from you. Your Red above.

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

The very same John you like quoting - here is another of his quotes. Yet you say they are. Because you say so. Ignoring hundreds if not thousands of scriptures.

Why do you CONTINUE to deny the scriptures?

 

[Chris1975]

no one said or insisted this

as usual, you twist what people say like you do scripture

If you would take one minute to stop, assuming what everyone is saying,you would make life on yourself and everyone else so much easier

You yourself have effectively stated that Paul was struggling in his sins. Your very posts here. Is Paul then contradicting himself when he says that those who live according to the flesh will die? Is he contradicting himself when he talks about putting to death the misdeeds of the body.

Why do you overlook all of the calls to holiness scriptures?

Maybe you can correct Paul if you meet him one day?

 

[Chris1975]

yet again another false accusation

its almost time to just stop responding to this man, he sins with almost every post in accusations yet professes to be preaching against sin,

he can not even live up to the standard he demands of others,

You can be my accuser on that day. We can meet the Lord on that day and He judge between us. Looking forward to it.

 

[Chris1975]

this is all written in present tense. there's no honest way to deny that. the text is what it is.

there is a sharp distinction made here, between what man does and what man wills and it is quite poignantly stated that they do not necessarily agree with each other. rather strikingly Paul identifies personhood with the desire of his heart, rather than his works. if he sins, it is not he who does it, but "sin dwelling in him"

i rather think that when he writes in Romans 8:2 that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has set him free from the law of sin and death, it has something to do with what he describes here in chapter 7. the victory isn't in a righteousness of works, but of faith.

These are interesting comments and worth further digging. You are right in saying there is a distinction between what he wills to do (that what is right), and what he actually does (what is wrong). In the context of the passage he is highlighting the power of the Law of Sin in his flesh that effectively overpowers his WILL. Because an man cannot do something without first agreeing to do it. I want to be good, but when faced with the temptation in the flesh, the WILL BENDS to the desires of the flesh. That is the nature of the human condition. Flesh over Soul. You cannot say when a man falls into the bed of another woman that he didn't go through a number of steps in his mind (possibly resisting the idea initially, then entertaining the idea, possibly fighting it back somewhat, and entertaining it again, then justifying it in his mind, then planning the steps he will take. Taking the steps, then consumating the act). There is a sin progression (see below). At each of these steps, if the minds has authority over the flesh, the man would be free to cease and stop this at will. But in the unregenerated man, the tendencies are towards evil. the Man might NOT HAVE WANTED to have an affair (His Will), but he had it anyway. God judges not only the actions but also the heart. If a man lusts after a woman he has ALREADY committed adultery with her in his heart. SO THIS is the problem identified by Paul. Exasperated, he calls out "Who will save me from this body of Death?"
Then the Solution. Christ Jesus. A life led by the Spirit will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. That is clear from the OP passage.

James shows the sin progression:
James 1
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

 

[Chris1975]

James 1
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

>How does this play to the OSAS crowd who say you cannot lose everlasting life? When does the ENDURING TEMPTATION occur? Clearly AFTER they have become believers.
>When was this person APPROVED in the above passage? At conversion, or after he has endured the temptation?
>When is the crown of life given? At conversion or after Approval?
>Who gets the crown? Those who love God
>Who are those who Love God? Those who obey his commandments.
>Who is this temptation passage directed at? Believers. You see it is still VERY MUCH as risk to a believer.

I tell you the truth, you reject the scriptures at your own peril.

 

[Chris1975]

Okay, so in view of what you have written here ^ , do you think:

--Paul's struggle in Romans 7 was a description of him "actively wallowing in the mire" (as a still-unregenerate person, as you said); or

--Paul's struggle in Romans 7 was a description of him "doing what he didn't want to do, and not doing what he did want to do" (as a regenerate person, who did not yet know of his resources in Christ [for use in getting/walking-in-victory], as opposed to "trying-and-failing" [by means of "the law" rather than by means of "the law of the SPIRIT of LIFE *in Christ Jesus*], as I said)

For Paul, I would say your former point. Because at this stage Paul is writing the rest of Romans and already knows the solution. He unfolds this for us.

For others in the Church, who haven't fully realised what they have it most certainly is possible that they are in the flesh and still wallowing in the mire. I believe sanctification (yieldedness to the HS) will deal with this aspect too. But unwillingness to partake of the HS leading is dangerous and will lead to apostasy eventually, if left unchecked.