What does the Bible say about separation of church and state?

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HeraldtheNews

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2012
1,550
437
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66
#1
Separation of church and state is a vital issue. From Israel's history, to the Roman empire, to the British empire, and Islamic theocracies such as Iran.

Jesus had the amazing simple answer as always:
"Give to Caeser what belongs to Caeser, and to God what belongs to God."

It's an issue in country's around the world, for many centuries.
Any thoughts on this? It's a very important issue for survival of humanity.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
6,722
113
#2
Either we have an Eternal King or we are without Him. Why would any change our Kingdom for an earthly regime?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,752
6,913
113
#3
God established all principalities and powers under the sun, so, I suspect He is over State as well as the Church.

Separation of Church and State IS NOT in the U.S. Constitution btw....... The Constitution has the Establishment Clause which does not separate Church/Faith from State, rather, it prevents the State from establishing ONE CHURCH for all peoples. As was the case in England........... The Founding Fathers never intended to remove faith from those who Govern, or the influence of God/His Laws from the State. The majority of our Laws come from/heavily influenced by the Laws of God found in Scripture.
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
653
113
#4
Separation of church and state is a vital issue. From Israel's history, to the Roman empire, to the British empire, and Islamic theocracies such as Iran.

Jesus had the amazing simple answer as always:
"Give to Caeser what belongs to Caeser, and to God what belongs to God."

It's an issue in country's around the world, for many centuries.
Any thoughts on this? It's a very important issue for survival of humanity.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

No government, or nation can rule unless God allows it so to go against it is going against what God is allowing, but this does not mean they are following the God of Israel, or any god.

But the saints cannot go along with the government, or nation if they go against God's ways and impose them on other people for we are always to obey God no matter the power that goes against the operation of God.

A government or nation can embrace Christianity and have that as their only religion but they should not force the people to obey Christianity for that is not the way of Jesus who said if they do not want to hear Christianity walk away from them and do them no harm, for they are claiming to be Christians so they should act like it.

Which the Catholic Church, and the Holy Roman Empire, years ago made that mistake of persecuting people not showing the love of Jesus, as well as some Protestants.

America allows all religions to be practiced in their country which that is not freedom from God for to be right with God they should only embrace Christianity, and if the people do not obey they are accountable to God, but no punishment upon them, but America says all religions can be practiced there even Satanism, and the occult, and the new age religion that shall deceive the world, so the American government is not doing right, although they are blessed because they allow the preaching of the Gospel in their nation, and to preach in other countries.

Israel had to be right with God both governmental, priesthood, and religious, only going by the ways of God with no exception but only to obey, and if not punishment came upon them whether error with the king, priest, or person.

When Jesus came to fulfill the law He had to obey the law perfectly, and be sinless, and fulfill all the roles of Israel concerning their governmental aspect which is He is the perfect King, the priesthood aspect of it which He is the High Priest, and the person aspect of it which He is the perfect saint.

For there was no exception with Israel but only to obey.

A Gentile government or nation that claims to be Christian should not push the religion upon people for they are to show the love of Christ like all saints, and if someone embraces another religion and another belief there should be no punishment upon them, but if they get violent towards other people then the government should have the right to put them down.

But governments that do not claim Christianity or persecute it will be judged because of that, and governments that claim Christianity but allow other religions to be practiced will be judged because of that.

For the government is only right with God if it only embraces Christianity and no other religion, but do not force people to embrace it for that is not the Christian thing to do, but put people down that get violent with trying to physically harm people standing up for their false religion, and if Christians get violent towards them then they should be dealt with to keep the peace.

The government is only right with God if it embraces Christianity, although there may be people in the government that only embraces Christianity then they are right, like Daniel in Babylon, and Joseph in Egypt, who were in the government, but those that embrace all religions will be judged.

There should be a separation of Church and State that they should not force it on anyone, but the government should not say practice any religion you want if they want to be right with God, for embracing all religions is not of God for we are only to embrace Christianity to be right with God.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,610
13,863
113
#5
The reality is that government always imposes morality, but morality is rooted in religion (or the lack of it). Genuine Christianity cannot be imposed by any government. Laws consistent with Christian values can be imposed, but the faith can't be.

American church/state separation (or at least the popular misconception thereof) has resulted in God being carefully expelled from education, and anti-religious fools like Bernie Sanders being in the running for president. It ain't working.
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#6
The reality is that government always imposes morality, but morality is rooted in religion (or the lack of it). Genuine Christianity cannot be imposed by any government. Laws consistent with Christian values can be imposed, but the faith can't be.

American church/state separation (or at least the popular misconception thereof) has resulted in God being carefully expelled from education, and anti-religious fools like Bernie Sanders being in the running for president. It ain't working.
Agreed,
Also in a country like our own where we elect representatives, it important to elect ones that represent us properly. In other words elect Christian leaders to represent the Christian community.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,610
13,863
113
#7
Agreed,
Also in a country like our own where we elect representatives, it important to elect ones that represent us properly. In other words elect Christian leaders to represent the Christian community.
That's challenging. In Canada, we have an overtly Christian party, but their platform is limited to a few moral issues, and their hope of actually running the country is slim to none. It becomes a choice of which evils to tolerate.
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#8
That's challenging. In Canada, we have an overtly Christian party, but their platform is limited to a few moral issues, and their hope of actually running the country is slim to none. It becomes a choice of which evils to tolerate.
It's really the same here, we have no actual Christian party, you have to evaluate each candidate and try to vote for something resembling a Christian.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#9
It's really the same here, we have no actual Christian party, you have to evaluate each candidate and try to vote for something resembling a Christian.
Yes, no such thing as the separation of church and state.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
6,722
113
#11
The guarantee of freedom of religion bears witness to the separation of church and state allowing for any and all professed fiaths, even faith there is no god.

This interpretation kept the righteous and the unrighteous separated at peace for at least two hundred years. Now the interpretation of the Constitution has been perverted, and that right well.

I prefer the traditional interpretation which keeps it that way. Now the churches have more false brethren than ever because they believe God is voting with them...The nations, as prophesied, will come to Jesus, Yeshua, and all the banners will be His. Until that prophecy is fulfilled, no nation is truly God-fearing, otherwise tey would not attmpt to put words in His Mouth.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#12
Any thoughts on this? It's a very important issue for survival of humanity.
1. It's not as simple as it might have been a long time ago. The State does have a religion -- it is called Godless Progressivism or Socialism (and in some countries it is simply Godless Communism). America is heading in that direction, unless people wake up and see what is going on and make sure they do not vote for the Democrats.

2. Secondly churches put their own necks in a noose by seeking tax advantages for charitable donations. That automatically involved the State in the churches' business. So now if a church opposes or speaks out against things like same-sex marriage, homosexuality, abortion, etc. the State wants to control free speech. Rendering to Cesar means avoiding tax exemptions or tax deductions and simply giving to the Lord.
 

dodgingstones

Active member
Nov 20, 2019
430
238
43
#13
Churches don't get tax advantages... individuals do. All citizens get tax credit 4 charitable giving.

Reason churches don't pay taxes us because of this concept of seperation.

Churches only get in trouble when Pastors include political ideology in their sermons.

Members can deduct Tithing from tax returns, but so can all citizens..
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,895
1,084
113
Oregon
#14
.
2Tim 2:3-7 . . Endure hardship with us like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs-- he wants to
please his commanding officer.

A soldier's primary responsibility is to accomplish the mission assigned by
their commanders. They don't give themselves leave to abandon their posts
to go off on their own personal agenda doing other stuff. Desertion and
dereliction of duty are courts martial offenses.

I truly believe that if Dr. Martin Luther King Jr had stayed in church and
complied with the Bible's instructions for ordained Christian ministers as per
the epistles of Titus, 1&2Timothy, and to some extent 1Peter instead of
getting involved in political activism and civil disobedience, he could have
served Christ another thirty-five years instead of getting himself
assassinated when he was only 39 years old.

Was Dr. King a martyr? Well, if he was, it certainly wasn't in a cause for
Christ. No, it was for a worldly cause. Dr. King marginalized his pastoral
responsibilities. He put duty to the color of his skin first, and duty to Christ
second. That was a very bad move for an ordained Christian minister
obligated to a congregation above all other interests.

1Tim 4:13 . . Focus on reading the Scriptures to the church, encouraging
the believers, and teaching them.

Moral of the story is: nobody is twisting anybody's arm to commit to a
ministry; but once the commitment is made: then they'd do well to hold
fast, stay the course, and not get distracted.

Luke 9:62 . . No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit
for service in the kingdom of God.

This is an angle of separation of church and state that few people other than
Christ seem to think matters much.
_
 

dodgingstones

Active member
Nov 20, 2019
430
238
43
#15
I don't know about all that.... just saying.... He fought for racial equality as stated in Scripture. He did so with Christian values, and not violent unrest/rioting. He was murdered because of hate. Because evil will seek to destroy the work of God's servents. We can't say what He did was NOT God's plan for him.... and what his ministry and sacrifice brought about was surely pleasing to God.

He taught love and brotherhood while obeying the Laws of this Nation.
 

HeraldtheNews

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2012
1,550
437
83
66
#16
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

No government, or nation can rule unless God allows it so to go against it is going against what God is allowing, but this does not mean they are following the God of Israel, or any god.

But the saints cannot go along with the government, or nation if they go against God's ways and impose them on other people for we are always to obey God no matter the power that goes against the operation of God.

A government or nation can embrace Christianity and have that as their only religion but they should not force the people to obey Christianity for that is not the way of Jesus who said if they do not want to hear Christianity walk away from them and do them no harm, for they are claiming to be Christians so they should act like it.

Which the Catholic Church, and the Holy Roman Empire, years ago made that mistake of persecuting people not showing the love of Jesus, as well as some Protestants.

America allows all religions to be practiced in their country which that is not freedom from God for to be right with God they should only embrace Christianity, and if the people do not obey they are accountable to God, but no punishment upon them, but America says all religions can be practiced there even Satanism, and the occult, and the new age religion that shall deceive the world, so the American government is not doing right, although they are blessed because they allow the preaching of the Gospel in their nation, and to preach in other countries.

Israel had to be right with God both governmental, priesthood, and religious, only going by the ways of God with no exception but only to obey, and if not punishment came upon them whether error with the king, priest, or person.

When Jesus came to fulfill the law He had to obey the law perfectly, and be sinless, and fulfill all the roles of Israel concerning their governmental aspect which is He is the perfect King, the priesthood aspect of it which He is the High Priest, and the person aspect of it which He is the perfect saint.

For there was no exception with Israel but only to obey.

A Gentile government or nation that claims to be Christian should not push the religion upon people for they are to show the love of Christ like all saints, and if someone embraces another religion and another belief there should be no punishment upon them, but if they get violent towards other people then the government should have the right to put them down.

But governments that do not claim Christianity or persecute it will be judged because of that, and governments that claim Christianity but allow other religions to be practiced will be judged because of that.

For the government is only right with God if it only embraces Christianity and no other religion, but do not force people to embrace it for that is not the Christian thing to do, but put people down that get violent with trying to physically harm people standing up for their false religion, and if Christians get violent towards them then they should be dealt with to keep the peace.

The government is only right with God if it embraces Christianity, although there may be people in the government that only embraces Christianity then they are right, like Daniel in Babylon, and Joseph in Egypt, who were in the government, but those that embrace all religions will be judged.

There should be a separation of Church and State that they should not force it on anyone, but the government should not say practice any religion you want if they want to be right with God, for embracing all religions is not of God for we are only to embrace Christianity to be right with God.
Thanks for taking the time to answer here. I m too tired to add to this right now.
 

HeraldtheNews

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2012
1,550
437
83
66
#17
.
2Tim 2:3-7 . . Endure hardship with us like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs-- he wants to
please his commanding officer.


A soldier's primary responsibility is to accomplish the mission assigned by
their commanders. They don't give themselves leave to abandon their posts
to go off on their own personal agenda doing other stuff. Desertion and
dereliction of duty are courts martial offenses.


I truly believe that if Dr. Martin Luther King Jr had stayed in church and
complied with the Bible's instructions for ordained Christian ministers as per
the epistles of Titus, 1&2Timothy, and to some extent 1Peter instead of
getting involved in political activism and civil disobedience, he could have
served Christ another thirty-five years instead of getting himself
assassinated when he was only 39 years old.


Was Dr. King a martyr? Well, if he was, it certainly wasn't in a cause for
Christ. No, it was for a worldly cause. Dr. King marginalized his pastoral
responsibilities. He put duty to the color of his skin first, and duty to Christ
second. That was a very bad move for an ordained Christian minister
obligated to a congregation above all other interests.


1Tim 4:13 . . Focus on reading the Scriptures to the church, encouraging
the believers, and teaching them.


Moral of the story is: nobody is twisting anybody's arm to commit to a
ministry; but once the commitment is made: then they'd do well to hold
fast, stay the course, and not get distracted.


Luke 9:62 . . No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit
for service in the kingdom of God.


This is an angle of separation of church and state that few people other than
Christ seem to think matters much.
_
Dr. King was a martyr and answered bravely with courageous action standing up to racial inequality, and giving a powerful speech that inspired a nation for all time. He was very human, but got the job done.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,895
1,084
113
Oregon
#18
.
while obeying the Laws of this Nation.

Titus 3:1 . . Remind your people to submit to the government and its
officials. They should be obedient, always ready to do what is good.

Civil disobedience-- defined as the active, professed refusal of a citizen to
obey certain laws of the state, and/or demands, orders, and commands of a
government, or of an occupying international power; i.e. non compliance
with constituted law and order --is essentially criminal conduct.

Henry David Thoreau insisted that individuals should not permit
governments to overrule or atrophy their consciences, and that they have a
duty to avoid allowing such acquiescence to enable the government to make
them the agents of injustice.

At first glance, Thoreau's ideas makes good sense. However; it's important
to take into account that Thoreau was a secular humanist indifferent to the
dictates of a supreme being whose commandments, laws, rules, statutes,
and edicts trump all other forms of government. Thoreau's concept of civil
disobedience foments anarchy which, according to Rom 13:1-5 and 1Pet 2:13-15
is strictly forbidden for Christ's followers.

I highly recommend that Christ's followers NOT get themselves involved in
political activism; viz: movements and/or protests, demonstrations, and
marches, etc. You'll just get yourself in trouble with the law and in trouble
with God too.

A bad example is Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's civil disobedience wherein he
was arrested upwards of thirty times. His lawlessness was political, i.e.
patterned after Thoreau's philosophy with just enough religion thrown in to
give the impression that King was on a mission from God.

Any Christian man, ordained to serve Christ as per the epistles of Titus,
1&2Timothy and to some extent 1Peter, has no business sticking their nose
into the world's affairs and or using his pulpit for any other purpose than
what he is commanded.

1Tim 4:13 . . Focus on reading the Scriptures to the church, encouraging
the believers, and teaching them.

According to Eph 4:11-15 God gives ministers to the churches for the
express purpose of building them up in the faith, NOT for leading them into
secular causes.

If a Christian minister gets himself arrested while following Thoreau's
philosophy and/or King's example, they will fully deserve criminal prosectuon
and jail time and should not expect God to applaud. They'll be on their own
as insubordinate, dried up yard debris. (cf. John 15:1-10)
_
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,057
1,526
113
#19
it doesnt. at one point it was theocracy but then in the n.t. they were under roman rule and were told to be subject to it and not cause any trouble. thats where we are now
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#20
Churches don't get tax advantages... individuals do. All citizens get tax credit 4 charitable giving.
That's exactly what I am talking about. In order to get those tax credits, churches involve government.