I wonder how these two verses will play out with Christadelphians and Jehovah's Witnesses?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#21
From this " A son is an offspring or creation of a Parent. "

Are saying you are a semi-Arian?

Do you believe the Son of God to be Divine like the Father?
I would think the phrase Son of God is used to represent eternal God who is without mother and father beginning of Spirit life or end thereof, without descent Therefore our High priest continually as not seen, signified by the Son of man, Jesus the temporal seen. the promise of Isaiah 53.

Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Hebrews7:3

The Son of God represents the unseen divine authority or Holy Spirit . The Son of man the temporal as seen is a representation of the authority of God not seen working with and in the Son of man.. God moving men according to the good purpose of His will.. God is not a man as us and neither is there any fleshly authority (daysman) between God not seen and man seen.The witness of God is the unseen witness....faith (Job 9)

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The temporal period of forgiveness lasted for 33 years then he departed out of sight

That kind of blasphemy against the Son of man as the things of men can be seen worked out in Mathew 16. Peter was forgiven of His blasphemy against the Son of man again as the things of men...That time period ended when the Son of man departed and informed us we know him no more forever more after what the eyes see. The one promised demonstration is over.

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.22-23
 

iymus

Junior Member
Feb 15, 2016
108
15
18
#23
all things have been created through Him and for Him
(Colossians 1:16)
Who is the "Him" in this faithful saying?
first and foremost

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

image of invisible God. why?

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

at any time.

The Son declared / represented the invisible God. not is the invisible God.

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The Majesty on High / Most High is not the Son but who the son represents and declared.

-------------------------------------------------------


Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Why?

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

-----------------------------

Is not a Firstborn Son the beginning of Creation of his Father?

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

----------------------------

Before The Father was no God formed. Why?

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

----------------------------------------------

The Father is the Originator of Life and his will alone be done.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
---------------

All things were made by the beginning of Creation of God but it was not authorized by the beginning of Creation of God. Neither was Creation his will.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.



























-------------------------------------------------------

firstborn of every creature
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,197
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
#24
So, you are oneness? Are you Jehovah Witness also? Yes, Jesus is divine. I have a few questions for you:

John 14:28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." Does this not suggest separation to you?

Matt. 3:17 "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This is at Christ's baptism. Who was speaking from heaven?

Matt. 17:5 "While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." This is the Transfiguration. Who was speaking from heaven?

I am a historical Christian, I have often posted Bowman's outline of the Trinity.

Concerning John 14:28 there are two answers, Jesus was speaking as a man, and in the Trinity there is a voluntary order of rank. know as the doctrine of voluntary submission.

Cleary, the father was speaking in the other two texts.

"the Word was with God—The preposition translated "with" is pros. In Koine Greek pros (short for prosôpon pros prosôpon, "face to face") was used to show intimacy in personal relationships (see Matt. 13:56; 26:18; Mark 6:3; 14:49; 1 Cor. 13:12; 6:10; 2 Cor. 5:8; Gal.1:18). Thus, for John to say "the Word was with God" was for him to mean "the Word was face to face with God" (see Williams’s translation) or "the Word was having intimate fellowship with God."

...

Some commentators, such as JFB, above, see PROS in this verse as shorthand for the idiomatic expression PROSÔPON PROS PROSÔPON (literally "face to face", RWP, cf., Moulton). This seems view is given weight by the context, in which the Son is said to be "in the bosom of the Father" (v. 18), and thus in the ideal position to declare the Father to the world.
http://www.forananswer.org/John/Jn1_1.htm
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,197
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
#25
strictly mathematically speaking the result of 5+5×5 being 25 depends on a being in a very specific contexts with very specific definitions of '+' and '×' -- you have to know what 'setting' or 'space' you are in to do math. now, most people only think about one setting and one measure. real numbers under arithmetic. and that's fine for what most people do ((which is count money and consumables lol)). but if we're going to talk about the things of God and use any kind of math to describe these things, i for one am not about to just assume that we're in any kind of setting that i can treat like integers under the L¹ norm. i need to know if '+' even exists in this setting, long before i can calculate it. i want rigor, or any 'playing at mathematics' is pointless.
Three to the power of zero equals one.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,197
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
#26
all things have been created through Him and for Him
(Colossians 1:16)
Who is the "Him" in this faithful saying?
Colossians 1:17 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
17 He is before all things,
and by Him all things hold together.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,197
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
#28
first and foremost
"Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"

Colossians 1:13-19 Evangelical Heritage Version (EHV)

13 The Father rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption,[a] the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, 16 for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and all things hold together in him.

18 He is also the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that in all things he might have the highest rank. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

From the context of above, Jesus has preeminence over everything created and has the highest rank over everyone resurrected.

"The first-born of every creature - I suppose this phrase to mean the same as that, Phi 2:9 : God hath given him a name which is above every name; he is as man at the head of all the creation of God; nor can he with any propriety be considered as a creature, having himself created all things, and existed before any thing was made. " http://www.forananswer.org/Colossians/Col1_15.htm

Rev 3:14 beginning of the creation of God

New International Version
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

Christian Standard Bible
"Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: Thus says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God's creation:

Contemporary English Version
This is what you must write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God's creation. Listen to what I say.

Good News Translation
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: "This is the message from the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the origin of all that God has created.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation says:

International Standard Version
"To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this:

NET Bible
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write the following: "This is the solemn pronouncement of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God's creation:

New Heart English Bible
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And to The Messenger of the assembly of the Laidiqians write: “Thus says The Eternal, The Trustworthy and True Witness, and The Source of The Creation of God:”

Young's Literal Translation
'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: The amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the source of God's creation, says:


A better translation would be, "ruler, source, origin of the creation of God"

"
Delling in Kittel’s Theological Dictionary Of The New Testament on page 479 made an important statement that needs to be kept in mind while looking at occurrences of arch, “arch always signifies “primacy,” whether in time “beginning,” principium or in rank: “power,” “dominion,” “office.” As a foundation, Rev. 3:14 needs to be put in the context of the entire book of Revelation. In 1:5, Jesus is called the (Ruler) arcwn over the Earth’s Kings and the faithful witness. The parallelism is unmistakable. Notice also ‘the Faithful and True Witness and ‘the Faithful Witness.’ arcwn obviously overlaps in meaning with arch as can be seen from a check of the standard lexicons. In 1:17, Jesus is “The First and The Last” as in 2:8 and 22:13. YHWH in the Old Testament has this name in Isaiah 44:6 and 48:12. In Rev. 5:13-14, a picture is given of “One sitting on the throne” and “to the Lamb” receiving worship. In 22:13, Jesus is given three names: The First and The Last, The Beginning and The End, and The Alpha and The Omega. This gives Jesus the same names of the Almighty as in 1:8 and 21:6. This is the high Christology of Revelation.

What we have in Rev. 3:14 are three event words which are titles for Jesus. The first title is The Amen. This is most probably the same title of YHWH in Isaiah 65:16. His second title is “The Faithful and True Witness.” His third title is “The Ruler.” It could also mean ‘Source.’ Ruler or Source are both (event words) titles in this context. Beginning does not fit the immediate or the wider context. Mr. Stafford wants arch to have a passive use. By doing this, he destroys the parallelism of the titles. I understand the genitive in Rev. 3:14 to be objective. Therefore, as D.B. Wallace stated in his grammar, Greek Grammar Beyond The Basics, page 116, “the genitive substantive functions semantically as the direct object of the verbal idea implicit in the head noun.”

In certain examples where beginning is a possibility, I think that we would find that more of an idea of ‘chief things’ would be more proper. For example, in Mark 1:1, ARCHE could mean ‘chief things’, ‘essentials’, or ‘summary.’ See Allen Wikgren in JBL ARCHE TOU EUAGGELIOU pages 11-20 (need vol and date).
Another interesting point is that whenever arch refers to a person, most of the time it has something to do with rule, dominion, or authority of some type(of course, only persons can be rulers). This is backed up from the LXX, New Testament, and secular usage. J.R. Mantey in Depth Explorations In The New Testament on page 100 stated, “Outside the NT, we found the following ideas expressed by the word: Beginning or Source, eighty-seven times; authority, forty times; office, thirty-six times; ruler or commander, thirty-two times; realm or dominion, eighteen times. A few samplings of the usage as ruler are: Plutarch, Morals II.151F, “he held the greatest and the most perfect position as a ruler.” In Lives VIII, Sertorius 10, “They were altogether lacking in a commander of great reputation.” In Morals V.75.E, “For it is not fitting for the Ruler and Lord of all to listen to anyone.” In Diodorus Siculus II Bk.3.5.1, “him the multitudes take for their king.” In Philo, Alleg. III.58, “for the sake of being a ruler with governors”; 66, ”Amalek, the ruler of nations.” Ruler in Rev. 3:14 also comports well with one of the most famous Messianic prophecies Isaiah 9:5-6 where the LXX uses arch for Christ’s rule. I end with a quote from Louw & Nida’s Greek-English Lexicon page 779, entry 89.16, “one who or that which constitutes an initial cause – ‘first cause, origin.’ H ARCHE THS KTISEOS TOU THOU ‘the origin of what God has created’ Rev. 3:14. It is also possible to understand arch in Rev. 3:14 as meaning ‘ruler’ (see 37.56).” http://www.forananswer.org/Rev/Rv3_14.htm

"



















-------------------------------------------------------

firstborn of every creature[/QUOTE]
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,197
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
#29
Philippians 2:5-11 Evangelical Heritage Version (EHV)

5 Indeed,[a] let this attitude be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. 6 Though he was by nature God, he did not consider equality with God as a prize to be displayed,[c] 7 but he emptied himself by taking the nature[d] of a servant. When he was born in human likeness, and his appearance was like that of any other man,[e] 8 he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death—even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,197
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
#30
You are being disingenuous.
Why would God be lower math? We who believes in the Trinity do not understand person as being separate beings, thus addition does not apply.

There is only one God, who are separate persons of volunteer rank. God being Spirit does not limit to a created being.

Jesus is the great I AM. Before Abraham came into existence, I AM.

also, 1 x 1 x 1 = 1
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,197
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
#32
Isaiah 43 Evangelical Heritage Version (EHV)
The Lord’s New Act of Salvation
43

But now this is what the Lord says,
the Lord who created you, O Jacob,
the Lord who formed you, O Israel. Note: Parallel format
Do not be afraid, because I have redeemed you.
I have called you by name. You are mine.
2 When you cross through the waters, I will be with you.
When you cross the rivers, they will not sweep you away.
When you walk through fire, you will not be burned,
and the flame will not set you on fire.

3 Because I am the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior,

I gave Egypt as your ransom,
Cush and Seba in exchange for you.
4 Because you are precious and honored in my eyes,
and I myself love you,
I will give people in exchange for you,
and peoples in exchange for your life.
5 Do not be afraid, because I am with you.
From the east I will bring your offspring,
and from the west I will gather you.
6 I will say to the north, “Give them back!”
and to the south, “Do not hold them.”
Bring my sons from far away
and my daughters from the end of the earth—
7 everyone who is called by my name,
everyone I created for my glory, Note: Parallel format
everyone I formed,
yes, everyone I have made.


8 Bring out the people who are blind, though they have eyes,
and the people who are deaf, though they have ears.
9 Let all the nations be gathered together,
and let peoples be assembled.
Who among them has declared this?
Who has made known to us the former things?
Let them produce their witnesses to show that they were right,
so that people can hear and say, “This is truth.”

10 You are my witnesses, declares the Lord.
You are my servant, whom I have chosen,
so that you may know me and believe in me,
so that you will understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
and after me there will not be another.
11 I, yes I, am the Lord,
and apart from me there is no savior.

12 I myself declared it.
I brought salvation, and I announced it.
It was not some strange god among you.
You are my witnesses, declares the Lord,
and I am God.
13 Indeed, from the first day, I am he.
There is no one who can deliver anyone from my hand.
I act, and who can reverse it?

14 This is what the Lord says,
the Lord your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
For your sake I am taking action against Babylon,
and I will bring down all the Chaldeans as refugees,
in the ships over which they rejoiced.
15 I am the Lord, your Holy One,
Israel’s Creator, your King.
16 This is what the Lord says,
who makes a road through the sea
and a path through mighty waters,
17 who brings out the chariot and the horses,
the army and the strong warrior.
They will all lie down together.
They will not get up.
They are extinguished.
Like a wick they go out.

18 Do not remember the former[a] things.
Do not keep thinking about ancient things.
19 Watch, I am about to do a new thing.
Now it will spring up. Don’t you know about it?
Indeed I will make a road in the wilderness.
In the wasteland I will make rivers.
20 The wild animals, the jackals and ostriches, will honor me,
because I am providing water in the wilderness,
rivers in a parched wasteland,
water for my chosen people to drink.
21 This people that I formed for myself will declare my praise.

22 But you have not called on me, O Jacob.
Instead, you have become weary of me, O Israel.
23 You have not brought me sheep as your whole burnt offerings.
You did not glorify me with your sacrifices.
I did not make you serve me with a grain offering.
I did not make you weary with demands for incense.
24 You did not purchase fragrant cane for me with silver
or satisfy me with the fat from your sacrifices.
Instead you have made me serve because of your sins.
You have made me weary because of your guilt.
25 I, yes I, am he.
I blot out your rebellious deeds for my own sake,
and I will not remember your sins.
26 Refresh my memory.
Let us review your case together.
Present your defense so that you may be acquitted.
27 Your first father sinned,
and your mediators rebelled against me.
28 Therefore I am repudiating the officials of the sanctuary,
and I am giving Jacob over to complete destruction
and Israel to insults.
 

iymus

Junior Member
Feb 15, 2016
108
15
18
#34
Why would God be lower math? We who believes in the Trinity do not understand person as being separate beings, thus addition does not apply.

There is only one God, who are separate persons of volunteer rank. God being Spirit does not limit to a created being.

Jesus is the great I AM. Before Abraham came into existence, I AM.

also, 1 x 1 x 1 = 1
I said you are disingenuous because the Trinity Doctrine of man states God is a number into a different number. Most common ones are 1/3 or 3/1 which is not one but 1/3 and 3.

The first and greatest commandment of God and in pertaining to the faith of Christ is that The God of Christ and his followers are one. Point blank period. He is the one and only Lord of Heaven and Earth and above all.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Mar 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

The Lord our God is The Father who is one person above all and in all and Lord/Owner of Heaven and Earth.

Our Lord his only begotten son is the firstborn and beginning of his creation by whom all things were made.

But it was by the will and authority of the Father alone because all things are of The Father himself.

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
 

iymus

Junior Member
Feb 15, 2016
108
15
18
#35
From the parallels we learn that God is not created.
you should also learn from parallels that the one whose name Christ came in is the only true saviour

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,197
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
#36
I said you are disingenuous because the Trinity Doctrine of man states God is a number into a different number. Most common ones are 1/3 or 3/1 which is not one but 1/3 and 3.

The first and greatest commandment of God and in pertaining to the faith of Christ is that The God of Christ and his followers are one. Point blank period. He is the one and only Lord of Heaven and Earth and above all.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Mar 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

The Lord our God is The Father who is one person above all and in all and Lord/Owner of Heaven and Earth.

Our Lord his only begotten son is the firstborn and beginning of his creation by whom all things were made.

But it was by the will and authority of the Father alone because all things are of The Father himself.

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

I already showed how three can be one two ways. God being an infinite being is hard to limit with math which if you have not figured out is philosophy or are you unaware of Hume?
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,197
1,577
113
68
Brighton, MI
#37
you should also learn from parallels that the one whose name Christ came in is the only true saviour

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11902-parallelism-in-hebrew-poetry

Psalm 120:2 is an example of synonymous parallelism:

“Save me, O Lord, from lying lips
and from deceitful tongues.”

https://www.gotquestions.org/synonymous-parallelism.html

one of the ones I pointed out was,

7 everyone who is called by my name,
everyone I created for my glory, Note: Parallel format
everyone I formed,
yes, everyone I have made.
 

iymus

Junior Member
Feb 15, 2016
108
15
18
#38
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11902-parallelism-in-hebrew-poetry

Psalm 120:2 is an example of synonymous parallelism:

“Save me, O Lord, from lying lips
and from deceitful tongues.”

https://www.gotquestions.org/synonymous-parallelism.html

one of the ones I pointed out was,

7 everyone who is called by my name,
everyone I created for my glory, Note: Parallel format
everyone I formed,
yes, everyone I have made.
Ironically I only posted what is written to show your error yet my lips are lying. such is life. :)
Also i normally don't get caught up with philosophy of articles. people claim the read the bible so that's where i keep it. or the dictionary and strongs concordance at times

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

----------------

Joh 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
16,724
10,531
113
78
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#39
Why would God be lower math? We who believes in the Trinity do not understand person as being separate beings, thus addition does not apply.

There is only one God, who are separate persons of volunteer rank. God being Spirit does not limit to a created being.

Jesus is the great I AM. Before Abraham came into existence, I AM.

also, 1 x 1 x 1 = 1
Before The Father was no God formed. Why?

There is only one God without beginning or without end.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/bowman_robert/trinity/trinity.cfm
I have gone through Mr. Bowman's account of the trinity. Although he uses the "trinity" label, I don't quite agree with him on his usage of "person." Sure, scripture seems to relate to God as a person; and certainly Christ was, but I don't think we should use that term for the Godhead. I don't use the "trinity" label but I understand those that do. All the rest of Mr. Bowman's statements seem right on to me. I agree with him that Jesus is fully God and was the Word (Spokesman-Logos) at creation.

I think it all comes down to man's finite mind trying to understand an infinite God. Can you describe being everywhere at once? Scripture tells us the Holy Spirit is. Wrap your mind around that. You can say it but you can't imagine it. What about hearing billions of prayers at the same time. No, you can't imagine the Holy Spirit. You want to call the Holy Spirit a person, go ahead. I will not. 17no.gif
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#40
first and foremost

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

image of invisible God. why?

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

at any time.

The Son declared / represented the invisible God. not is the invisible God.

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The Majesty on High / Most High is not the Son but who the son represents and declared.

-------------------------------------------------------


Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Why?

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

-----------------------------

Is not a Firstborn Son the beginning of Creation of his Father?

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

----------------------------

Before The Father was no God formed. Why?

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

----------------------------------------------

The Father is the Originator of Life and his will alone be done.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
---------------

All things were made by the beginning of Creation of God but it was not authorized by the beginning of Creation of God. Neither was Creation his will.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sin

-------------------------------------------------------

firstborn of every creature
It is made in the image as "likeness" as in attributes . Not mirror image as a reflection .God is Spirit .He is not a man as us. His glory as a source of faith remains invisible.