Who is the Judge?

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Scrobulous

Scrobulous

Active member
#1
Sep 17, 2018
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#1
Hi folks,

I have a question about John 12:47-48.

“As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn him at the last day."

My question is, how can Jesus separate Himself from His own words?

Christ is the Judge, how can He say 'I do not judge him?' or 'I did not come to Judge the world' when so many other scriptures say the opposite.
2 Cor 5:10; Acts 10:42; 17:31; John 5:22, 27; 9:39; Rom 2:6?

Your comments are appreciated!
 
JamOn

JamOn

Banned
#2
Jun 10, 2019
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#2
Scrobulous said:
Hi folks,

I have a question about John 12:47-48.

“As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn him at the last day."

My question is, how can Jesus separate Himself from His own words?

Christ is the Judge, how can He say 'I do not judge him?' or 'I did not come to Judge the world' when so many other scriptures say the opposite.
2 Cor 5:10; Acts 10:42; 17:31; John 5:22, 27; 9:39; Rom 2:6?

Your comments are appreciated!
Click to expand...
the Bible states that Christ didn’t come to condemn but to save and the rest of the answer is in the last part of 48
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

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#3
Dec 28, 2016
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#3
It's simple really. Christ is speaking of his first advent. The other texts for the most part are of the coming judgment.

Christ isn't separating himself from His own words as you accuse, you just fail to apply or see context.

As for John 9:39 you're not making a plain distinction that by the mere office of Christ in his person others are judged or are put out in the open, specifically that they are shown to be blind to the truth, while others are shown to be those to whom truth is revealed. It is then quite apparent that in John 3 what is meant is Christ at that time did not enter the world for final judgement, it didn't imply he then could not use judgement in his earthly ministry. That's an easy distinction to make for any thinking person.

I'm certain none of this will suffice as your penchant is to think you've discovered contradictions and that you've given the word a hit.

This is akin to your post on Titus 1:2 where you asked, literally by begging the question, where in Scripture God promised eternal life as if you had an irrefutable argument. If you had just read the next verse, which I showed you later, you would have gotten the answer which is right there in the context.

Looking forward to your next polemic against the testimony of Scripture.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

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#4
Dec 28, 2016
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#4
JamOn said:
the Bible states that Christ didn’t come to condemn but to save and the rest of the answer is in the last part of 48
Click to expand...
It almost always comes down to him missing context and an incapability or aversion to making proper distinctions.
 
JamOn

JamOn

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#5
Jun 10, 2019
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#5
preacher4truth said:
It almost always comes down to him missing context and an incapability or aversion to making proper distinctions.
Click to expand...
Guess it doesn’t always jump out off the pages for some folks but on the topic reading John 12:48 the (word) spoken and the whom that word is, and as well it’s mentioned in the Bible about the word. though that can happen when a message is divided even down to the verse
 
tourist

tourist

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#6
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#6
Perhaps Jesus only executes the judgement under the authority given to Him by the Father.
 
Scrobulous

Scrobulous

Active member
#7
Sep 17, 2018
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#7
JamOn said:
the Bible states that Christ didn’t come to condemn but to save and the rest of the answer is in the last part of 48
Click to expand...
The last part of verse 48 says that Jesus' word will condemn those who do not believe. If I say that my words say something, it is taken that I say them. I do not separate my words from me and say 'I say this', but 'my words say that'.
I hope this is understandable.
Clearly it is too much for preacher4truth who routinely fails to understand most things.
 
Scrobulous

Scrobulous

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#8
Sep 17, 2018
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#8
tourist said:
Perhaps Jesus only executes the judgement under the authority given to Him by the Father.
Click to expand...
You make a good point, which comes immediately afterwards in John 12:49. But this would imply that Jesus is in disagreement with the Father, which He never is. So, ignoring that as a possibility and taking it for granted that the Father and Son agree on all things, we could assume that what is meant here is that Jesus did not come to judge unbelievers in his first coming but will take on his role as Judge at the final resurrection.
The problem with this is that Jesus certainly did act as Judge in His first coming. In Matthew 23:35 Jesus speaks of a judgment of the Jews of his own generation, i.e. the first century generation. This judgment destroyed the temple in AD70 and ended the old covenant. In fact the Romans crucified nearly everyone in Jerusalem (except the Christians who escaped thanks to Jesus' warning in Matthew 24:17) Josephus said there were a forest of crucifixes all around Jerusalem. So Jesus very much came as Judge and Saviour in his first coming.
 
JamOn

JamOn

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#9
Jun 10, 2019
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#9
Scrobulous said:
The last part of verse 48 says that Jesus' word will condemn those who do not believe. If I say that my words say something, it is taken that I say them. I do not separate my words from me and say 'I say this', but 'my words say that'.
I hope this is understandable.
Click to expand...
The word became flesh yet the word lives on and was before flesh as we know it the physical
 
Scrobulous

Scrobulous

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#10
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#10
JamOn said:
The word became flesh yet the word lives on if that’s understandable
Click to expand...
The word became flesh means that God became a man in Jesus Christ. It is perfectly understandable.
 
JamOn

JamOn

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#11
Jun 10, 2019
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#11
Scrobulous said:
The word became flesh means that God became a man in Jesus Christ. It is perfectly understandable.
Click to expand...
then what is the issue with the last part of the sentence if that is your belief
 
Scrobulous

Scrobulous

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#12
Sep 17, 2018
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#12
JamOn said:
then what is the issue with the last part of the sentence if that is your belief
Click to expand...
To repeat, in the first part of the passage I quoted in the first post, Jesus says he did not come to judge the world, then in the second part, he says that there is a judge for the unbeliever, it is the words that Jesus himself has spoken. Now, I take this to mean that Jesus will be the Judge of the unbeliever (since Jesus and the words of Jesus are the same). However, in the first part Jesus said that he did not come to judge. See the point? I suspect it may be a translation issue, or perhaps Jesus means something else. As I say, I am trying to find out what other believers think about this passage.
 
JamOn

JamOn

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#13
Jun 10, 2019
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#13
Scrobulous said:
To repeat, in the first part of the passage I quoted in the first post, Jesus says he did not come to judge the world, then in the second part, he says that there is a judge for the unbeliever, it is the words that Jesus himself has spoken. Now, I take this to mean that Jesus will be the Judge of the unbeliever (since Jesus and the words of Jesus are the same). However, in the first part Jesus said that he did not come to judge. See the point? I suspect it may be a translation issue, or perhaps Jesus means something else. As I say, I am trying to find out what other believers think about this passage.
Click to expand...
For three to work as one three work independently as one as well. the key is the mentioning of last day, when Jesus spoke in 48 it wasn’t the last day

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
 
Scrobulous

Scrobulous

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#14
Sep 17, 2018
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#14
JamOn said:
For three to work as one three work independently as one as well.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Click to expand...
I do not disagree with you on this. Each person of the Godhead has a clearly defined role and they all agree on all things. This is what you would expect. God is infinitely wise.
 
JamOn

JamOn

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#15
Scrobulous said:
I do not disagree with you on this. Each person of the Godhead has a clearly defined role and they all agree on all things. This is what you would expect. God is infinitely wise.
Click to expand...
I agree when Jesus said in the last day is the last, we are speaking the world is still rolling along has the last day dawned already?
 
tourist

tourist

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#16
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#16
Scrobulous said:
You make a good point, which comes immediately afterwards in John 12:49. But this would imply that Jesus is in disagreement with the Father, which He never is. So, ignoring that as a possibility and taking it for granted that the Father and Son agree on all things, we could assume that what is meant here is that Jesus did not come to judge unbelievers in his first coming but will take on his role as Judge at the final resurrection.
The problem with this is that Jesus certainly did act as Judge in His first coming. In Matthew 23:35 Jesus speaks of a judgment of the Jews of his own generation, i.e. the first century generation. This judgment destroyed the temple in AD70 and ended the old covenant. In fact the Romans crucified nearly everyone in Jerusalem (except the Christians who escaped thanks to Jesus' warning in Matthew 24:17) Josephus said there were a forest of crucifixes all around Jerusalem. So Jesus very much came as Judge and Saviour in his first coming.
Click to expand...
I tend to agree with you on all points.

While it does appear that Jesus did exercise a certain measure of judgement that was probably not the primary purpose of His first coming, but rather, to save the people of the world from their sins. Of course, it would be necessary for judgement to ascertain the nature of the sins and to execute judgement.

Jesus and the Father agree on all matters and while the Father has given Jesus the authority in all things Jesus only does what He sees the Father do so, in that sense, perhaps it is the Father who is the one that judges.

As you have stated, Jesus will take on the role (primary purpose) as Judge in the final resurrection. The role (primary purpose) of Jesus in His first coming was that as Savior.

There is no contradiction of scripture in regards to the OP but rather a matter of proper context of the verses pertaining to the matter of judgement.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#17
Jul 8, 2018
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#17
Scrobulous said:
Hi folks,

I have a question about John 12:47-48.

“As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn him at the last day."

My question is, how can Jesus separate Himself from His own words?

Christ is the Judge, how can He say 'I do not judge him?' or 'I did not come to Judge the world' when so many other scriptures say the opposite.
2 Cor 5:10; Acts 10:42; 17:31; John 5:22, 27; 9:39; Rom 2:6?

Your comments are appreciated!
Click to expand...
God judges his children by chastening them when they commit a sin. The elect are judged in the here and now, but God does not judge the wicked until the last day. At the last day the wicked will experience the second death. The elect will not experience the second death because of the death of Christ.
 
Scrobulous

Scrobulous

Active member
#18
Sep 17, 2018
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#18
tourist said:
I tend to agree with you on all points.

While it does appear that Jesus did exercise a certain measure of judgement that was probably not the primary purpose of His first coming, but rather, to save the people of the world from their sins. Of course, it would be necessary for judgement to ascertain the nature of the sins and to execute judgement.

Jesus and the Father agree on all matters and while the Father has given Jesus the authority in all things Jesus only does what He sees the Father do so, in that sense, perhaps it is the Father who is the one that judges.

As you have stated, Jesus will take on the role (primary purpose) as Judge in the final resurrection. The role (primary purpose) of Jesus in His first coming was that as Savior.

There is no contradiction of scripture in regards to the OP but rather a matter of proper context of the verses pertaining to the matter of judgement.
Click to expand...

I see what you are saying, but when Jesus does takes on His primary role of Judging on the last day, He says that He will not Judge, but the word that He speaks will Judge, as though this word were not Jesus Himself because Jesus flatly states that he does not Judge!
It is the word Jesus has spoken that Judges at the last day and this is weird. I sense there is a mystery here. Perhaps connected with Jesus being the Logos, the Word of God, which itself is a strange idea! This is something deep.
To be honest I did consider your argument before I posted, I just feel something is missing. Let's see if anyone else has a suggestion. I will continue to pray, after all, the Holy Spirit is the best teacher! Thanks for your comment.
 
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