Does God have a Soul?
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Problem... What you just said qualifies in the same manner, as would anything else you said or anyone said; including what I just said... And this... And this... ad infinitum.
And no, a Trinitarian cannot bring verses to demonstrate that God is three "persons".
I've been to the source you speak of. Why would you presume your understanding is NOT according to the above and determine everyone else's is. It's quite paradoxical.
You presume your understanding is truth; or that all is truth; or that none is truth; or that truth is irrelevant, and only life matters.
Perhaps you underestimate the spiritual experience of others and overestimate your own.
And God, the source, spoke the Rhema substance content of His own Divinity by the Logos to be embodied in flesh. That doesn't mean God wasn't still Spirit during the Incarnation.
I'm guessing you have a Gnostic view that the one true God is Transcendant to all else, and that Logos and Sophia (whether in tandem or in sequence) had thoughts that had thoughts; and a successive procession was the demi-urge that created the corrupt matter of all the material realm (but was unaware of his diminutive status). Then Wisdom appealed to the one true God and Father to help by sending the Word as savior for a corrupt world. And we can only progress to the appropriate level of Life if we are one of the chosen to ascend through gnosis to epignosis, etc. ...or some other similar variation.
Am I tracking?
And no, a Trinitarian cannot bring verses to demonstrate that God is three "persons".
I've been to the source you speak of. Why would you presume your understanding is NOT according to the above and determine everyone else's is. It's quite paradoxical.
You presume your understanding is truth; or that all is truth; or that none is truth; or that truth is irrelevant, and only life matters.
Perhaps you underestimate the spiritual experience of others and overestimate your own.
And God, the source, spoke the Rhema substance content of His own Divinity by the Logos to be embodied in flesh. That doesn't mean God wasn't still Spirit during the Incarnation.
I'm guessing you have a Gnostic view that the one true God is Transcendant to all else, and that Logos and Sophia (whether in tandem or in sequence) had thoughts that had thoughts; and a successive procession was the demi-urge that created the corrupt matter of all the material realm (but was unaware of his diminutive status). Then Wisdom appealed to the one true God and Father to help by sending the Word as savior for a corrupt world. And we can only progress to the appropriate level of Life if we are one of the chosen to ascend through gnosis to epignosis, etc. ...or some other similar variation.
Am I tracking?
I
The problem is not what I am saying but how it is perceived. Again, my source comes not from without or out of myself but from WITHIN. If I say that all men are saved by the blood of Christ, how is it then perceived as an evil thing? If I say that through the law all have become guilty so that God may have mercy on us all, why build again upon a fear of death?
You say a trinitarian cannot back up his belief with scripture. Now tell that to a trinitarian. Do not get me confused. I am not trying to get ANYONE to convert to ANYTHING. And what you perceive that I SEEM to know I see it as not knowing what I ought to.
By what you see God to be, if you believe a trinitarian to be a worshiper of an idol, then why not simply follow what the bible says. Does not it state that an idol is nothing in the world? Now if you believe that what you hold on is the truth, why then not simply take loss to a man you see display a weaker faith than you?
Whatever image one has of what God is, is it not summed up in love?
Does not a person demonstrate his faith by worshiping on saturday as well as sunday? In what he eats or doesn't?
If we are judged based on how we judge others, how will I be judged unworthy seeing life and mercy in all?
D
God is a spirit. the spirit from which all things came forth. God is within you and outside of you. the presence of God is everywhere, in all places. The energy and power in God that created all things, is with all things. that same energy and power in God is also in you and all things. all things are kept alive from the power and energy in God. The same is within you. If you bring forth what is within you then, that also will save you. If it is not found through you, The same shall kill you. All men have their choice. Search for God within you and the same God in you will also reveal itself(God) in you. Do not stop seeking till you find, and when you find, you will be able to overcome satan(sin) within you, as you overcome and do Gods will, nothing will be able to corrupt you. because you would have overcame all things from within yourself. what you see, and what you sense is not living because of itself. You see only the image. It is not the image that keeps itself living, it is what's within the image that keeps it living. as God is within all things, God also keeps all things living from within.
What you just said is essentially Pantheism. What you're probably trying to refer to is more like Gnosticism.
Hebrews 1:3, "...and upholding (phero) all things by the word (rhema) of his power (dunamis)..."
(What is it on this site with all the novice teenagers trying to correct and instruct according to some deep "substance" or knowledge they think they have?! Participation, great; all the rest... not so much.)
Hebrews 1:3, "...and upholding (phero) all things by the word (rhema) of his power (dunamis)..."
(What is it on this site with all the novice teenagers trying to correct and instruct according to some deep "substance" or knowledge they think they have?! Participation, great; all the rest... not so much.)
D
I also agree. We are not to worship the image of Jesus Chirst. No man is living because of his image, only what is within a image keeps the image living. That which is in Christ is not the image of Christ. It is God and only God that is within Jesus Christ that kept Jesus living and from the Beginning, since Jesus knew the Father which, is within all things, for all men to find within themselves. All things he did were not to glorify himself, neither were they of himself. But were only to glorify the Father within, and because he never followed any will of his own image and self, Hes was one in God and God in him, Therefore God did all Gods works through him. because Jesus proved himself worthy of the Father, never giving thought to sin, therefore God was able to do all of Gods work through Jesus Christ. It was not Jesus that spoke. It was God speaking through him. It was not Jesus that performed miracles. It was God performing miracles through him. It was not Jesus who healed. It is God that healed through him. God works through those who prove worthy of Gods will. The same and only God is within all of us and all things, all things are in Gods presence. And God will work through anyone who is worthy of Gods work. But sin and doubt block God from revealing in you, because your thoughts draw more to the image of Christ and not that which is within Christ. Your are then blind. Even flesh was not worthy to God, as all flesh dies, so did the flesh of Jesus. Jesus did not of his own flesh, but only allowed the will of God to be worked through him, from God within him. God overcame the flesh of Jesus Christ from within him. because Jesus did not cause his own flesh to stop the Fathers work from within him. When God spoke through Jesus and Jesus said "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
It does not mean that claiming Jesus' as your savior will give you salvation. Only by following God from within our selves will we be given salvation. For all things done through Jesus, were not done by himself (the flesh) The flesh did not perform miracle and wonders. Only The Father God performed the miracles and wonders. It was only through Jesus because Jesus was the only pure and worthy one for God to do these works, for Jesus first overcame sin(Satan) and did not become tempted, to show himself worthy to the Father so The Father would work through him. It is only from within ourselves that we can glorify, worship, and become one in and with the Father. Our bodies are the same as Christs. Christ did not follow and worship God from the flesh, but within himself he knew God and was one with God. If you say you follow Jesus' and if what you say is true then you must follow the Father from with yourself, for Jesus did not follow himself and his own flesh but only followed The Father that is within him and all living things.
It does not mean that claiming Jesus' as your savior will give you salvation. Only by following God from within our selves will we be given salvation. For all things done through Jesus, were not done by himself (the flesh) The flesh did not perform miracle and wonders. Only The Father God performed the miracles and wonders. It was only through Jesus because Jesus was the only pure and worthy one for God to do these works, for Jesus first overcame sin(Satan) and did not become tempted, to show himself worthy to the Father so The Father would work through him. It is only from within ourselves that we can glorify, worship, and become one in and with the Father. Our bodies are the same as Christs. Christ did not follow and worship God from the flesh, but within himself he knew God and was one with God. If you say you follow Jesus' and if what you say is true then you must follow the Father from with yourself, for Jesus did not follow himself and his own flesh but only followed The Father that is within him and all living things.
E
Ah, but again, John makes it clear;
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
And again:
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
The word is not a "plan" it is a (to not offend anyone I will use the word the Scripture uses) HIM.
He is the one who was in the beginning with God
He is the one who IS GOD
He is the one who was "made lower than angels and became flesh"
He is the one who "was tempted in all areas, yet without sin"
He is the one who was sent not to judge, but to save
He is the one who "emptied himself, even to the point of the cross"
He is the one who hung on the cross, and for the first tim in eternity, was separated from the father (spiritual death - my God my God why have you forsaken (departed) from me)
He is the one who declared "it is finished"
He is the one who ascended to heaven to become our "high priest in the order of Melchizedek"
He is the one who is our mediator
He is the one who "fulfilled the law"
He is the one who took the took the penalty which was directed at us and "nailed it to the cross" so we could be set free (justified)
He is the one who will return to Earth
He is the one who will resurrect his people (including the church)
He is the one who will judge and reward his people (bema seat)
He is the one to whom death and hades will be delivered to (not resurrected by) him for eternal judgment.
so I think it is clear, it is not an Idea, It is a HIM. And HE is not the father, but has his own soul.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
And again:
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
The word is not a "plan" it is a (to not offend anyone I will use the word the Scripture uses) HIM.
He is the one who was in the beginning with God
He is the one who IS GOD
He is the one who was "made lower than angels and became flesh"
He is the one who "was tempted in all areas, yet without sin"
He is the one who was sent not to judge, but to save
He is the one who "emptied himself, even to the point of the cross"
He is the one who hung on the cross, and for the first tim in eternity, was separated from the father (spiritual death - my God my God why have you forsaken (departed) from me)
He is the one who declared "it is finished"
He is the one who ascended to heaven to become our "high priest in the order of Melchizedek"
He is the one who is our mediator
He is the one who "fulfilled the law"
He is the one who took the took the penalty which was directed at us and "nailed it to the cross" so we could be set free (justified)
He is the one who will return to Earth
He is the one who will resurrect his people (including the church)
He is the one who will judge and reward his people (bema seat)
He is the one to whom death and hades will be delivered to (not resurrected by) him for eternal judgment.
so I think it is clear, it is not an Idea, It is a HIM. And HE is not the father, but has his own soul.
"...for I proceeded*forth (exerchomai G1831aina) and came (heko G2240pin) from (ek G1537) God (Theos G2316);..." -John 8:42
Without even addressing the etymology, etc. of exerchomai and heko; the former is in the aorist indicative active (aina), while the latter is in the present indicative (pin). active.
• The aina expresses simple undefined action that is not continuous, and indicates punctiliar action (action that happens at a specific time) in the past. It's distinguished from the imperfect tense (ipf), which denotes continuous action in the past.
• The pin asserts something which is occurring while the speaker is making the statement. It represents contemporaneous action, as opposed to action in the past or the future and is not continuous or repeated action.
The proceeded*forth and the came are two different events at two different times; one past, one current.
I guess it would be good to know what exerchomai and heko mean, then. And... it would be good to contrast all this to John 15:26, where the HS proceedeth (ekporeuomai) from the Father.
Just for grins... "And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding (ekporeuomai) out of (ek) the throne of God and of the Lamb." -Rev. 22:1
Without even addressing the etymology, etc. of exerchomai and heko; the former is in the aorist indicative active (aina), while the latter is in the present indicative (pin). active.
• The aina expresses simple undefined action that is not continuous, and indicates punctiliar action (action that happens at a specific time) in the past. It's distinguished from the imperfect tense (ipf), which denotes continuous action in the past.
• The pin asserts something which is occurring while the speaker is making the statement. It represents contemporaneous action, as opposed to action in the past or the future and is not continuous or repeated action.
The proceeded*forth and the came are two different events at two different times; one past, one current.
I guess it would be good to know what exerchomai and heko mean, then. And... it would be good to contrast all this to John 15:26, where the HS proceedeth (ekporeuomai) from the Father.
Just for grins... "And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding (ekporeuomai) out of (ek) the throne of God and of the Lamb." -Rev. 22:1
You greatly misunderstand me. The Word made flesh is NOT the Father. Jesus had a human soul-spirit. That's what God embodied Himself in. Jesus received God's Spirit into His spirit. Ultimately, Jesus' soul was made one with the Father. There was a vital process to this for mankind.
Only the Word can divide*asunder the substance of God's Spirit from the essence of His being, partitioning for separation and distribution within mankind. This doesn't just "happen"; there's a specific way that the uncreated eternal must indwell the created temporal. It isn't just a celestial tag-team match or relay race between multiple God-persons. There are structural absolutes to the constitution of man and of God.
E
My post was not directed to you
Jesus did not become human until his birth. Yet he had a soul before time began, and this soul was with God. He did not have a human soul, he had his own soul
He did not receive the Spirit until his baptism. His eternal soul entered his human body at birth. Remember, the author of Hebrews made it clear, he had no beginning or end, and he had no mother or father.
This makes no sense. Biblically or logically. Sorry
Jesus did not become human until his birth. Yet he had a soul before time began, and this soul was with God. He did not have a human soul, he had his own soul
He did not receive the Spirit until his baptism. His eternal soul entered his human body at birth. Remember, the author of Hebrews made it clear, he had no beginning or end, and he had no mother or father.
This makes no sense. Biblically or logically. Sorry
I know. I was responding to the last line.
Scripture of ANY kind that He had a separate soul. This is absurd speculation beyond inference. Everything you say is merely a conceptual personal perception. No scripture, no exegesis. It's not even eisegesis, it's unfounded opinion. Even eisegesis goes extensively to scripture. THIS is what's wrong with the Body of Christ as the church today.
I've never addressed this.
That's because your "logic" is extra-biblical personal philosophy over exegetic truth.
Three souls?! C'mon! You have the most polytheistic view of Trinity I've heard yet. It isn't actually Trinity. Other Trinitarians would cringe at your three gods with their separate souls.
I just wanted to make sure it was clear I wasn't saying the Son IS the Father. That's all.
Proceed...
Scripture of ANY kind that He had a separate soul. This is absurd speculation beyond inference. Everything you say is merely a conceptual personal perception. No scripture, no exegesis. It's not even eisegesis, it's unfounded opinion. Even eisegesis goes extensively to scripture. THIS is what's wrong with the Body of Christ as the church today.
I've never addressed this.
That's because your "logic" is extra-biblical personal philosophy over exegetic truth.
Three souls?! C'mon! You have the most polytheistic view of Trinity I've heard yet. It isn't actually Trinity. Other Trinitarians would cringe at your three gods with their separate souls.
I just wanted to make sure it was clear I wasn't saying the Son IS the Father. That's all.
Proceed...
E
your right it is wrong, everyone does all these things and comes up with their doctrines and ideas and say they got it from God, and everyone who disagrees did not do these things right. what a pity that we do not stick to the word, and use these complex theological terms to prove we are right and everyone else is wrong (we can't all be right)
Lets see, The "word = He (I proved this)
The word was in the beginning -(scripture proves this) with God
hmm. Not much theological process needed. If HE (the word) was in the beginning (before time) and the word (he) was with God. then the word (he) must have a separate soul
Whats there to address? He had a soul at birth, and the spirit entered him at Baptism. Nothin to talk about, facts are facts.
A calvanist tells me the same thing when I disagree that belief comes after regeneration. Is he right to??
You can see after so many use this same excuse that it has lost its power and means nothing to me.
I never claimed to agree with all trinitarians now have I. In fact I have stated over and over I do not agree with all they say, even showing you when you say ALL trinitarians believe this, that I do not.
So question. Is this the first time you have figured out what I have said all along? I must wonder if you read anything I say
Yes I know. But is it realy what you mean? Unless the son has his own soul, he is the father. If he shares his fathers soul, then he is the father
again using your logic. My soul is me, My body is me, and my spirit is me.
I can not say my soul is me, and my body is not me, for they are all me..
Lets see, The "word = He (I proved this)
The word was in the beginning -(scripture proves this) with God
hmm. Not much theological process needed. If HE (the word) was in the beginning (before time) and the word (he) was with God. then the word (he) must have a separate soul
Whats there to address? He had a soul at birth, and the spirit entered him at Baptism. Nothin to talk about, facts are facts.
A calvanist tells me the same thing when I disagree that belief comes after regeneration. Is he right to??
You can see after so many use this same excuse that it has lost its power and means nothing to me.
I never claimed to agree with all trinitarians now have I. In fact I have stated over and over I do not agree with all they say, even showing you when you say ALL trinitarians believe this, that I do not.
So question. Is this the first time you have figured out what I have said all along? I must wonder if you read anything I say
Yes I know. But is it realy what you mean? Unless the son has his own soul, he is the father. If he shares his fathers soul, then he is the father
again using your logic. My soul is me, My body is me, and my spirit is me.
I can not say my soul is me, and my body is not me, for they are all me..
A
Yes I know. But is it realy what you mean? Unless the son has his own soul, he is the father. If he shares his fathers soul, then he is the father
again using your logic. My soul is me, My body is me, and my spirit is me.
I can not say my soul is me, and my body is not me, for they are all me..
Here let me try: they are all you but are you you without one of them?
If you only had a soul would you still be you? (ghost)
If you only had a body would you still be you? (comatose victim)
If you only had your spirit would you still be you? (demon)
ok so unless you have ALL three then you would not be HUMAN.
therefore unless GOD is all three then He is not the Almighty GOD.
When GOD is spirit alone, He is referred to as the HOLY SPIRIT
WHen GOd is HUMAN/body we call Him JESUS CHRIST.
WHen GOD projects His soul or will we call it THE ANGEL OF the LORD.
any questions?
correct me if i get it mixed up PPS. my Hebrew is rusty. having two kids will do that.
again using your logic. My soul is me, My body is me, and my spirit is me.
I can not say my soul is me, and my body is not me, for they are all me..
Here let me try: they are all you but are you you without one of them?
If you only had a soul would you still be you? (ghost)
If you only had a body would you still be you? (comatose victim)
If you only had your spirit would you still be you? (demon)
ok so unless you have ALL three then you would not be HUMAN.
therefore unless GOD is all three then He is not the Almighty GOD.
When GOD is spirit alone, He is referred to as the HOLY SPIRIT
WHen GOd is HUMAN/body we call Him JESUS CHRIST.
WHen GOD projects His soul or will we call it THE ANGEL OF the LORD.
any questions?
correct me if i get it mixed up PPS. my Hebrew is rusty. having two kids will do that.
your right it is wrong, everyone does all these things and comes up with their doctrines and ideas and say they got it from God, and everyone who disagrees did not do these things right. what a pity that we do not stick to the word, and use these complex theological terms to prove we are right and everyone else is wrong (we can't all be right)
Lets see, The "word = He (I proved this)
The word was in the beginning -(scripture proves this) with God
hmm. Not much theological process needed. If HE (the word) was in the beginning (before time) and the word (he) was with God. then the word (he) must have a separate soul
Whats there to address? He had a soul at birth, and the spirit entered him at Baptism. Nothin to talk about, facts are facts.
A calvanist tells me the same thing when I disagree that belief comes after regeneration. Is he right to??
You can see after so many use this same excuse that it has lost its power and means nothing to me.
I never claimed to agree with all trinitarians now have I. In fact I have stated over and over I do not agree with all they say, even showing you when you say ALL trinitarians believe this, that I do not.
So question. Is this the first time you have figured out what I have said all along? I must wonder if you read anything I say
Yes I know. But is it realy what you mean? Unless the son has his own soul, he is the father. If he shares his fathers soul, then he is the father
again using your logic. My soul is me, My body is me, and my spirit is me.
I can not say my soul is me, and my body is not me, for they are all me..
Lets see, The "word = He (I proved this)
The word was in the beginning -(scripture proves this) with God
hmm. Not much theological process needed. If HE (the word) was in the beginning (before time) and the word (he) was with God. then the word (he) must have a separate soul
Whats there to address? He had a soul at birth, and the spirit entered him at Baptism. Nothin to talk about, facts are facts.
A calvanist tells me the same thing when I disagree that belief comes after regeneration. Is he right to??
You can see after so many use this same excuse that it has lost its power and means nothing to me.
I never claimed to agree with all trinitarians now have I. In fact I have stated over and over I do not agree with all they say, even showing you when you say ALL trinitarians believe this, that I do not.
So question. Is this the first time you have figured out what I have said all along? I must wonder if you read anything I say
Yes I know. But is it realy what you mean? Unless the son has his own soul, he is the father. If he shares his fathers soul, then he is the father
again using your logic. My soul is me, My body is me, and my spirit is me.
I can not say my soul is me, and my body is not me, for they are all me..
Here's your fallacy: God is NOT the Father. God is F-S-HS. The Father doesn't HAVE a soul, the Father IS God's Soul.
You perceive that God and Father are interchangeable and synonymous. They're aren't for Trinity OR your Triadism. either. The Father is one of three. It's about HOW these three are God. You say discrete beyond Trinity persons. Trinity says persons. Scripture clearly.. in English... says God's Soul/The Father is well pleased in the Son.
You simply have no comprehension of spirit-soul-body, even as it relates to man. That's almost universal within the church.
Conceptually...
God is a Spirit... period. The indivisible conscious sentience as the mind-will of God is His Soul... His Self. Self is the essence of being... existence. The substance of that being is Spirit. The mind-will of God's Soul "Fathered" all creation by thinking and willing to speak forth the temporal realm from Himself to personify Himself in flesh. Nothing had been external to God before He spoke.
God spoke the uncreated eternal substance of Himself forth into the created temporal. The Rhema Divine Content and Logos Divine Expression preceded the act of the utterance; being borne forth by His Spirit-breath according to His mind-will (Soul).
There's MUCH more here, but Trinis will just presume 3 different God-people always existed, and will never account for the procession of the Son and Holy Spirit in John 8:42/17:8 and John 15:26/14:26.
The Logos was thought and spoken, and that expression was the Rhema subject matter of God's substance being uttered by His breath (Spirit). He spoke that substance of Himself into flesh so the Logos would divide*asunder His Spirit to distribute to man. That Word became a man that would transcend to embody God's Soul and Spirit. Contained, but not constrained. That's the Christ in us that is our hope of glory.
Trinity is a Philoso-Gnostic construct.
The Word IS a He. The Word just isn't a separate He among three total He-s. The Word is the One eternal He of God spoken into the temporal as flesh.
You shouldn't hold it against me for knowing the truth. Belief is irrelevant. One can believe anything, as the Three-Godders have proven.
On another note... How ya feelin'?
You shouldn't hold it against me for knowing the truth. Belief is irrelevant. One can believe anything, as the Three-Godders have proven.
On another note... How ya feelin'?