Apostasy 101

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,488
13,428
113
58
Btw, I’m still wondering why God saved an entire generation of Israel from Egypt which later perished in disbelief when according to you, they never had true saving faith to begin with. Care to clarify?
The Israelites were God’s chosen people and He had a plan which was all in His timing. Our ways are not His ways. Where do you read they all had true saving faith? Jude 1:5 states otherwise.
 

Enxu

Active member
Jan 13, 2020
223
42
28
I wasn’t avoiding it and I did not say their faith must have been false. Similar language is spoken about the man who had his father’s wife in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 who later repented in 2 Corinthians chapter 2? Nothing is mentioned about him "losing his salvation" either. Genuine faith in either case does not prove your argument about losing salvation.
So you got my point, no one shipwrecks a false faith. So since they did have true faith at one point, were they saved or not at one point?
 

Enxu

Active member
Jan 13, 2020
223
42
28
and what are His commands?

believe in the Name of the Son and love one another.

so, to believe is to obey.
What about loving one another? Does love require nothing from you, only belief?

The words of Jesus are many, and includes commands on how to pray, how to give to the poor, commands to deny ourselves take up our crosses and follow Him. Are these commands obeyed just by believing?
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
What about loving one another? Does love require nothing from you, only belief?

The words of Jesus are many, and includes commands on how to pray, how to give to the poor, commands to deny ourselves take up our crosses and follow Him. Are these commands obeyed just by believing?
Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” [b]“You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Enxu - they don't see it.
 

Enxu

Active member
Jan 13, 2020
223
42
28
The Israelites were God’s chosen people and He had a plan which was all in His timing. Our ways are not His ways. Where do you read they all had true saving faith? Jude 1:5 states otherwise.
Exodus 14:31
When the Israelites saw the great power with which the LORD had defeated the Egyptians, they stood in awe of the LORD; and they had faith in the LORD and in his servant Moses.

Isn’t it blatantly obvious they once did had faith?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,488
13,428
113
58
Yes I did. But they NEVER had faith? Really?

Exodus 14:21 When the Israelites saw the great power with which the LORD had defeated the Egyptians, they stood in awe of the LORD; and they had faith in the LORD and in his servant Moses.

Are you reading a different Bible?
Are you reading a different verse? Exodus 14:21 - Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea into dry land, and the waters were divided.

You mean verse 31 - When Israel saw the great power which the Lord had used against the Egyptians, they feared the Lord [with reverence and awe-filled respect], and they believed in the Lord, and in His servant Moses.

Was that similar to the ways the Jews believed in Jesus in John 8:31? Yet we know ultimately what kind of belief that turned out to be, when we continue to read through verse 59.
 

Enxu

Active member
Jan 13, 2020
223
42
28
Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” [b]“You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Enxu - they don't see it.
And I’m going to test whether they can’t see it or won’t see it.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
I completely agree that certain notions sound frightening, distainful, and disconcerting...

Can we deny the Lord that bought us?

Can we forsake the right way?

Can they who escaped from bondage be lured back?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,488
13,428
113
58
So you got my point, no one shipwrecks a false faith. So since they did have true faith at one point, were they saved or not at one point?
Nothing is mentioned about them losing their salvation. The apostle Peter denied Jesus three times and was said to fall away, yet is Peter saved or lost? Sounds like a shipwreck to me but he survived.
 

Hazelelponi

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2019
609
397
63
USA
Seriously? God delivered Israel because of their faith in all He said to them through Moses, even if it was just physical deliverance. It was still a form of salvation that was a foreshadow of deliverance that will ultimately be done by Jesus. Your statements have absolutely no scriptural backing.



Your point is still moot because Jesus NEVER said a sheep cannot stray from Him by walking away from Him.

You also conveniently ignore that apostle Paul said any believer can be cut off from the vine if they fail to remain in God’s kindness.
The sheep can stray yes, but if they belong to the Shepard he will save them, and they will hear his voice and follow Him.

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Matthew 15:25

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:27-28

The sheep who strayed and are in need of a savior - the sinner - are who Jesus came for.

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Mark 2:17
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
I completely agree that certain notions sound frightening, distainful, and disconcerting...

Can we deny the Lord that bought us?

Can we forsake the right way?

Can they who escaped from bondage be lured back?
Yup agreed. But if it is the truth, would you not want to know, as opposed to putting head under the sand? I would rather know.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
Nothing is mentioned about them losing their salvation. The apostle Peter denied Jesus three times and was said to fall away, yet is Peter saved or lost? Sounds like a shipwreck to me but he survived.
If Noah was shipwrecked, we wouldn't be here today.
 

Enxu

Active member
Jan 13, 2020
223
42
28
You mean verse 31 - When Israel saw the great power which the Lord had used against the Egyptians, they feared the Lord [with reverence and awe-filled respect], and they believed in the Lord, and in His servant Moses.

Was that similar to the ways the Jews believed in Jesus in John 8:31? Yet we know ultimately what kind of belief that turned out to be, when we continue to read through verse 59.
Yes it should be verse 31, it was a typo.

You are departing from the simplicity in Christ by reading meanings into verses that are not there. Exodus 14:31 never carried the meaning “they seemingly had faith in the LORD”, neither did John 8:31. They had faith simply means they had faith. That faith changed later on into disbelief.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
I completely agree that certain notions sound frightening, distainful, and disconcerting...

Can we deny the Lord that bought us?

Can we forsake the right way?

Can they who escaped from bondage be lured back?
Yes

2 Pet 2:20If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,f only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”g and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,488
13,428
113
58
The apostle Paul suffered 3 shipwrecks, but he wasn’t killed. (2 Corinthians 11:25)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,488
13,428
113
58
Yes it should be verse 31, it was a typo.

You are departing from the simplicity in Christ by reading meanings into verses that are not there. Exodus 14:31 never carried the meaning “they seemingly had faith in the LORD”, neither did John 8:31. They had faith simply means they had faith. That faith changed later on into disbelief.
I disagree and not all belief is the same.
 

Enxu

Active member
Jan 13, 2020
223
42
28
I completely agree that certain notions sound frightening, distainful, and disconcerting...

Can we deny the Lord that bought us?

Can we forsake the right way?

Can they who escaped from bondage be lured back?
Yes, especially about denying the Lord that bought us! There is a verse on this!

But according to them, the Lord actually bought tares which never had faith! Lol!
 

Enxu

Active member
Jan 13, 2020
223
42
28
I disagree and not all belief is the same.
I disagree because the entire Bible, whenever it mentioned the word faith, only talked about true faith. Any form of false faith is automatically mentioned as unbelief (or dead faith) You are deceived.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
Yes it should be verse 31, it was a typo.

You are departing from the simplicity in Christ by reading meanings into verses that are not there. Exodus 14:31 never carried the meaning “they seemingly had faith in the LORD”, neither did John 8:31. They had faith simply means they had faith. That faith changed later on into disbelief.
The John 8v31 was belief, but when Jesus explained what belief really meant, that is to TURN FROM SIN (v34-36) they took offense.
We have the same debate here day in and day out.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,488
13,428
113
58
I disagree because the entire Bible, whenever it mentioned the word faith, only talked about true faith. Any form of false faith is automatically mentioned as unbelief (or dead faith) You are deceived.
I disagree and multiple translations say “believed” in Exodus 14:31.