Does I Corinthians 13 teach certain gifts ceased with the closing of the canon?
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You have no argument there for gifts ceasing. The passage says that God bore witness to the gospel by signs and wonders performed by them that heard the Lord when it was preached to them that heard the Lord when it was addressed to the group being addressed (presumably the Hebrews). |
We agree on that. Continuationists (who believe the gifts continue) accept what this passage says. And the cessationists who aren't the liberal type who have a problem with Biblical miracles believe that.
The problem is you are reading into the passage something that it does not say. it does not say that only them that heard Jesus did miracles. It does not say that the gospel would not be confirmed with signs and wonders among other groups.
If we look at other scripture, we see that such things were performed by other Christians. we do not know if Philip or Stephen saw Christ. It is quite possible that they did not. But we can be fairly certain that most or all the Corinthian former idolators Paul addressed way up in Corinth had not seen the Lord, even though he listed the working of miracles among the gifts given to the church in I Corinthians 12.
The problem with your interpretation is that it is eisegesis based on faulty logic and not taking the rest of scripture into account.
The imperfect is replaced with the complete when this happens. Partial knowledge is replaced with complete knowledge. If you have complete knowledge, could you tell me where my lost donkeys went? Prophets could answer such questions if the Lord told them.
I Corinthians 1:7 says 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' Given some of the doctrinal error you hold to-- not believing in a literal resurrection of the dead and not having the Biblical hope we are hoping for...unless you have grown in your understanding...then how can you understand this rightly?
Why would you repeat such faulty reasoning after you have been shown that it is illogical and unbiblical. Maybe if i quote a verse you will understand.
I Corinthians 12
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
Here we see a purpose of the manifestation of the Spirit (speaking of manifestations that are also called gifts in this passage) is the common good.
In I Corinthians 14, we see purposes of the gift of prophecy.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
Paul is not addressing apostles and telling them to prophesy. He is talking to believers in the local church. it does not stand to reason to say that the purpose of this gift is solely to bear witness to the apostles.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
And here we see that gifts are to edify the church.
No we aren't. The scope of the Spirit and the grace that comes through the Spirit is not limited to the first century, and the Bible puts no limitation on either.
You don't believe in a literal resurrection, but you believe that? Btw, it does not say 'satan's coming'. I think you are talking about the man of sin. Do you believe Jesus is coming back also. that wicked will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming. (II Thess 2:8.) Paul wrote, 'So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, wiating for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (I Corinthians 1:7.) So we have a situation where God and the evil one could both do signs and wonders.
We agree on that. Continuationists (who believe the gifts continue) accept what this passage says. And the cessationists who aren't the liberal type who have a problem with Biblical miracles believe that.
The problem is you are reading into the passage something that it does not say. it does not say that only them that heard Jesus did miracles. It does not say that the gospel would not be confirmed with signs and wonders among other groups.
If we look at other scripture, we see that such things were performed by other Christians. we do not know if Philip or Stephen saw Christ. It is quite possible that they did not. But we can be fairly certain that most or all the Corinthian former idolators Paul addressed way up in Corinth had not seen the Lord, even though he listed the working of miracles among the gifts given to the church in I Corinthians 12.
The problem with your interpretation is that it is eisegesis based on faulty logic and not taking the rest of scripture into account.
The imperfect is replaced with the complete when this happens. Partial knowledge is replaced with complete knowledge. If you have complete knowledge, could you tell me where my lost donkeys went? Prophets could answer such questions if the Lord told them.
I Corinthians 1:7 says 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' Given some of the doctrinal error you hold to-- not believing in a literal resurrection of the dead and not having the Biblical hope we are hoping for...unless you have grown in your understanding...then how can you understand this rightly?
Why would you repeat such faulty reasoning after you have been shown that it is illogical and unbiblical. Maybe if i quote a verse you will understand.
I Corinthians 12
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
Here we see a purpose of the manifestation of the Spirit (speaking of manifestations that are also called gifts in this passage) is the common good.
In I Corinthians 14, we see purposes of the gift of prophecy.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
Paul is not addressing apostles and telling them to prophesy. He is talking to believers in the local church. it does not stand to reason to say that the purpose of this gift is solely to bear witness to the apostles.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
And here we see that gifts are to edify the church.
No we aren't. The scope of the Spirit and the grace that comes through the Spirit is not limited to the first century, and the Bible puts no limitation on either.
You don't believe in a literal resurrection, but you believe that? Btw, it does not say 'satan's coming'. I think you are talking about the man of sin. Do you believe Jesus is coming back also. that wicked will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming. (II Thess 2:8.) Paul wrote, 'So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, wiating for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (I Corinthians 1:7.) So we have a situation where God and the evil one could both do signs and wonders.
Interestingly,Jesus placed healing alongside salvation (forgiveness)
Mark 2
9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.
In reading that this morning i realized some are against Jesus and God giving gifts.
So ,lol ,nothing has ceased
Mark 2
9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.
In reading that this morning i realized some are against Jesus and God giving gifts.
So ,lol ,nothing has ceased
Some people believe after the book of revelation No more prophecy, ironically the book of revelation itself say, there Will be a prophecy in the end time, in the time away after the book of revelation wrote
rev 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Some body tell me when 2 witnesses exercise the gift of prophecy in verse 3? Is that before or after the book of revelation wrote?
rev 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Some body tell me when 2 witnesses exercise the gift of prophecy in verse 3? Is that before or after the book of revelation wrote?
Heb 2:This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
1. Was confirmed by those who heard and God testified to it by gifts.
The testifying part of it was when it was being confirmed (being preached) by those who heard it.
This statement applies even today. The gospel is being confirmed(preached) to us by those who heard Him through the scripture and we also see how God testified to it through the scripture.
What the text does not say is; the gospel will be confirmed by those who did not hear Him, and testified by God through the gifts....
As much as the gifts operated in the church, it was still to confirm this salvation to members of the church for their edification. If one member of the church had a gift, it was to edify others; what this means, the gifts enabled the gospel to be preached and the gospel is preached, the gifts cease.
The apostles and the 1st century church are one and the same, their job was to establish the church and the gifts were foundational- for it is said the temple of God is made of Christ as the chief corner stone, the foundation of apostles and now the church itself.
Others scriptures say were are all priests in this kingdom meaning that we only have one chief priest in Christ and everyone else being equal.
Jer 31:
33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
This is the new covenant which basically means church era. God doesn't appoint other people over others but all are equal. Hence, what the apostles wanted to achieve was unity in love- so love was the perfect that was to come.
Will respond to this later.
Rev 22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Heb 2:This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
1. Was confirmed by those who heard and God testified to it by gifts.
The testifying part of it was when it was being confirmed (being preached) by those who heard it.
This statement applies even today. The gospel is being confirmed(preached) to us by those who heard Him through the scripture and we also see how God testified to it through the scripture.
What the text does not say is; the gospel will be confirmed by those who did not hear Him, and testified by God through the gifts....
As much as the gifts operated in the church, it was still to confirm this salvation to members of the church for their edification. If one member of the church had a gift, it was to edify others; what this means, the gifts enabled the gospel to be preached and the gospel is preached, the gifts cease.
The apostles and the 1st century church are one and the same, their job was to establish the church and the gifts were foundational- for it is said the temple of God is made of Christ as the chief corner stone, the foundation of apostles and now the church itself.
Others scriptures say were are all priests in this kingdom meaning that we only have one chief priest in Christ and everyone else being equal.
Jer 31:
33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
This is the new covenant which basically means church era. God doesn't appoint other people over others but all are equal. Hence, what the apostles wanted to achieve was unity in love- so love was the perfect that was to come.
Will respond to this later.
One component is teacher
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We are not talking about perfect knowledge. We are talking about the completion of the inspired word of God given to equip the church for service to her Lord Jesus Christ.
The issues you raise in the OP are just the usual collection of baseless allegations that are not supported by good bible exegesis. The testimony of the Pentecostal charismatic church for the last hundred years or so is one that is suspect and has little regard for the truth. The veracity of the Pentecostal charismatic church's claims of tongues, healings, and such things has always been very doubtful.
You are trying to create a pretext to justify a behavior that is not supported in scripture and evidenced in the conduct of those espousing the same.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The issues you raise in the OP are just the usual collection of baseless allegations that are not supported by good bible exegesis. The testimony of the Pentecostal charismatic church for the last hundred years or so is one that is suspect and has little regard for the truth. The veracity of the Pentecostal charismatic church's claims of tongues, healings, and such things has always been very doubtful.
You are trying to create a pretext to justify a behavior that is not supported in scripture and evidenced in the conduct of those espousing the same.
For the cause of Christ
Roger