Women will be saved through Childbearing, if

[JohnR7]

Being submissive has nothing to do with silencing the other party.

Jesus came to be a servant. In the same way the Husband is to serve the wife. He is to shelter and protect her from the storms of life. Just as Jesus went to Calvary and gave Himself for us, the Husband is to die to self and give himself for his Bride.

 

[John146]

Actually what this means that Jesus is a descendant of Adam and Eve and though Jesus Adam, Eve and their descendants would be saved. This was part of the curse that God put upon the snake that deceived Eve: "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will crush your head, and you will strike His heel." Of course the scriptures are understood on many levels. Through Christ we are saved from death, hell and the grave. I think this means women will be kept save in Child bearing if they "continue in faith, love, holiness w/ self control."

Good point, I see that as well.

 

[JohnR7]

Prophets or prophesy doesn't demand respect,

They are only responsible to deliver the message to the people. What people do with their message has no impact on them at all.

 

[Noose]

They are only responsible to deliver the message to the people. What people do with their message has no impact on them at all.

Correct, prophesy doesn't demand that you be superior to the people you are prophesying to or of. You can even prophesy to dry bones.

 

[Noose]

Jesus came to be a servant. In the same way the Husband is to serve the wife. He is to shelter and protect her from the storms of life. Just as Jesus went to Calvary and gave Himself for us, the Husband is to die to self and give himself for his Bride.

Agreed, but the wife submits to the husband just as the church submits to the authority of Christ. One way of usurping authority is teaching spirituality, just like the word of God does not originate from the Church to Christ, it can not originate from wives to husbands or women to men.

 

[JohnR7]

Agreed, but the wife submits to the husband just as the church submits to the authority of Christ.

A lot of people believe we do not have to submit to the teachings of Jesus. Paul says: "That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep" (1cor11:30)

 

[Noose]

Yes, so it is inherently limited. Are you willing to live your Christian life and teach others based on understanding that you know to be limited?


Yes.


I can know you are wrong, without knowing the right answer. If you say, "Joe is with you," I can truthfully say, "You are wrong" and not know where Joe is. That aside, I was not saying (in this specific case) that you are wrong, but rather that your argument is fallacious and therefore invalid. That means something different.

English or Greek, saying that priestesses taught Eve was created first and Adam came from Eve -the reason Paul seems to ban 'women' from teaching is a stretch of imagination.

There's no consensus about English translations being inherently limited and even if it, the general meaning of that passage can not change just because the 'authority' is being used instead of another word.

We are absolutely sure of the meaning in 1 Tim 2 also based on other passages like Eph 5. If the the church(bride) submits to Christ (bride groom) because Christ has authority over the church, then Eve submitted to Adam because Adam had authority over her and so women submit to men because of the same. Greek does not change that.

 

[JohnR7]

did Jesus state this also?

Moses and Jesus are the two main teachers. Everyone else just comments on what they said. All of the Bible builds on the first verse that says: "In the beginning God created Heaven and Earth. From this we ask: who, what, when, where, why & how.

 

[Judges1318]

Agreed, but the wife submits to the husband just as the church submits to the authority of Christ. One way of usurping authority is teaching spirituality, just like the word of God does not originate from the Church to Christ, it can not originate from wives to husbands or women to men.

Which is why I say woman has no more authority over man than man has over Christ.

3But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, a and the head of Christ is God. - 1 Corinthians 11:3

If woman has authority over man, then man has authority over Christ.

 

[Noose]

Which is why I say woman has no more authority over man than man has over Christ.

3But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, a and the head of Christ is God. - 1 Corinthians 11:3

If woman has authority over man, then man has authority over Christ.

We know that is an impossibility.

 

[Dino246]

English or Greek, saying that priestesses taught Eve was created first and Adam came from Eve -the reason Paul seems to ban 'women' from teaching is a stretch of imagination.

You're welcome to your opinion.

There's no consensus about English translations being inherently limited and even if it, the general meaning of that passage can not change just because the 'authority' is being used instead of another word.

It changes the meaning completely.

We are absolutely sure of the meaning in 1 Tim 2 also based on other passages like Eph 5. If the the church(bride) submits to Christ (bride groom) because Christ has authority over the church, then Eve submitted to Adam because Adam had authority over her and so women submit to men because of the same. Greek does not change that.

Fallacy: circular reasoning.

 

[Noose]

It changes the meaning completely.

I guess it does. A big change indeed, from false teachers and priestesses teaching how Adam came from Eve to Paul saying men have authority because Adam was created first and Eve came from Adam.

This is a failed argument. It has no basis.

 

[Judges1318]

Unless I just missed it, no one has explained what women are to be silent about. I just keep hearing about how they don't really have to be silent about anything, and that the man is not really head of the woman, in complete and utter defiance of what the Bible actually says.

 

[Dino246]

Unless I just missed it, no one has explained what women are to be silent about. I just keep hearing about how they don't really have to be silent about anything, and that the man is not really head of the woman, in complete and utter defiance of what the Bible actually says.

I haven't seen any arguments claiming that the man is not really head of the woman. However, since you mentioned it, consider the terms in that statement: "the man" and "the woman". Both are singular, which requires that Paul did not mean that men are the head of women.

Also, as you mentioned the passage about women being silent, perhaps you'd like to offer your perspective as Paul specifically permits women to speak in Chapter 11.

 

[oldethennew]

in order to be in the 'body of Christ', a 'woman and a man' must behave in the prescribed manner -
the original Commandment was to 'be fruitful and multiply', but if this is done in an 'un-godly' manner,
the children will be (corrupt-un-clean) -
1COR. 7:14.
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband:
else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
to bear 'Godly children is the 'point', to be fruitful and multiply =
when we are in 'the Body of Christ', it's just explaining of the Commandment, this is what
has to be done NOW, 'if it is possible for one to bear children'...

(sin is passed-on), as it is written:
1COR. 15:22.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[Judges1318]

Also, as you mentioned the passage about women being silent, perhaps you'd like to offer your perspective as Paul specifically permits women to speak in Chapter 11.

I did that and I was hoping you'd respond to it, but you did not. I will repost it.

 

[Judges1318]

So, have we figured out what the Lord was commanding when he said women should remain silent and be in submission in the churches?

34Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

36Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.

39Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

1 Corinthians 14:34-40


Are we to assume it has nothing to do with this explanation of why women should be quiet and in submission?

11A woman a should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. - 1 Timothy 2:11-14


Paul is saying being quiet and in submission is referring to women not assuming authority in regard to teaching. And he gives the reason why.

How can a woman be a pastor or elder if she is commanded by the Lord to not assume that authority? She can't of course.

@Dino246
This is what I hoped you would respond to so that you could make it clear to me what it is exactly that you say the Lord is commanding women to be silent about, if anything at all.

 

[Dino246]

I did that and I was hoping you'd respond to it, but you did not. I will repost it.

My apologies. I did respond, but not to that.

I don't believe that God is commanding women to be silent. The way that passage makes the most sense to me is if Paul is quoting someone else in verses 34-35. Silencing all women is inconsistent with Paul's other teaching, particularly with 1 Cor 11:5.

 

[Judges1318]

I don't believe that God is commanding women to be silent. The way that passage makes the most sense to me is if Paul is quoting someone else in verses 34-35.

But vs. 37 says that what he is writing "is the Lord's command":

34Women f should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

36Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.

Silencing all women is inconsistent with Paul's other teaching, particularly with 1 Cor 11:5.

I agree. Paul can't be saying women are to be quiet in regard to the very things he just said that are to be done in church, and which the rest of scripture affirms woman can do. That's why we have to know what it is exactly that women are to be silent in church about. And I think we know that by what Paul says in this passage about this very same issue of women being silent:

11A woman a should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; b she must be quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. - Timothy 2:11-14

The thing women are to be silent about is not prophesying, singing, etc. It's being silent in the matter of teaching the word of God from an assumed position of authority. Between the two passages we can see exactly what the Lord's command in 1 Corinthians 14:34-38 is about concerning this matter of women being silent.

Women have simply not been ordained to teach the Word of God with authority. Does that mean women are stone cold stupid and you can't listen to anything they have to say? No, of course not. I've learned from many women over the years. But that happens in 'take it or leave it' kind of discussions that we Christians have.

Woman can share and we are free to receive it as truth or we can discard it as merely their opinion. What they can not do is impress it on the church in an authoritative teaching manner. The Lord's command is that they are to be silent in that regard. But then again, that's true for me, too. I don't have that calling either. I can only speak to the extent that women can speak. I can put things out there in informal discussion and you are free to take it or leave it. I personally have no more of an ordination to teach with authority than a woman has. It's not the end of the world, ladies.

 

[Judges1318]

The way that passage makes the most sense to me is if Paul is quoting someone else in verses 34-35.

Even if it was someone else Paul is quoting in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, what is it exactly that this other person said women should be silent about? We both agree it can't be the very things he just got done saying should be done in the church and which the rest of scripture affirms women can do. So what is it?