Does I Corinthians 13 teach certain gifts ceased with the closing of the canon?

Noose · Jan 18, 2020

1 John 4:
7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

9This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and onlyc Son into the world, so that we might live through Him. 10And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as the atoning sacrificed for our sins.

11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We lovee because He first loved us.

Q. When will these things (love) being spoken of above come to pass? If these love only comes at the very end then the gifts have not ceased but if we love now, then all gifts ceased. Why is it that difficult for you to see.

Where there's love prophesy will cease/ knowledge will stop- if we still have prophesy and these gifts, then love has not been perfected in us which also means that we don't know God at all because God is not in us (1 John 4). And if God is not in us then we are not saved at all, nobody has since the 1st century.

presidente · Jan 18, 2020

notuptome said:

The passage deals with partial knowledge being replaced by complete knowledge, not a book from which we get knowledge being complete. Knowledge is still incomplete, and many Christians have not attained the knowledge Paul had when he wrote the epistle.

presidente · Jan 18, 2020

Noose said:

It is 'difficult to see' because the scriptures do not teach your theory.

I Corinthians 13 speaks of knowing fully as we are fully known. Now we now in part, so the perfect Paul writes of in that context has not happened yet.

If we go with a typical understanding of when books of scripture were written,
John wrote,
17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

and then he wrote on to write a book of prophecy....oh yeah prophecy is a spiritual gift. The book predicted that others would prophesy and do certain miracles. If love were perfected among the saints before John wrote revelation, then spiritual gifts were still active after love was perfected, disproving your theory....a theory that does not fit the context of I Corinthians either. Love was abiding when Paul gave instructions on the gifts. In Ephesians 4, the operating of the gifts is connected to the body building itself up in love. Spiritual gifts are to be used in love and with love. Love does not replace them.

Noose · Jan 18, 2020

presidente said:

Until when?

Eph 4:
11And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for works of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ Himself, who is the head. 16From Him the whole body, fitted and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love through the work of each individual part.

presidente · Jan 18, 2020

Noose said:

Until when?

Eph 4:
11And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for works of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ Himself, who is the head. 16From Him the whole body, fitted and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love through the work of each individual part.

Do you believe the church has reached the full measure of the stature of Christ? Paul also writes, '
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:'

Noose · Jan 18, 2020

presidente said:

Paul and John were addressing 'infants' then. When i say infants i don't mean individuals but the church as a whole. Unity in love was what was to bring them to maturity.

1 John 4 clearly says these perfect love means we know God, if we don't love one another we don't know God and God is not in us. If God only comes in us at the end of age then no one is saved from 1st century.

1 Cor 13:8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be restrained; where there is knowledge, it will be dismissed. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.

It is clear that love was not perfected in the early church and Paul is saying when it is perfected then the partial disappears. The partial here refers to the gifts whose purpose was to edify members of the church to bring about that perfection. So the gifts were working against themselves because they were partial/temporary.

It is not possible that the church is still in its infancy.

Noose · Jan 18, 2020

presidente said:

Correct, if not then the apostles failed in laying the foundation.

Coming of Christ was not that far either:

Heb 10:
25Let us not neglect meeting together, as some have made a habit, but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
......
35So do not throw away your confidence; it holds a great reward. 36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised. 37For,

“In just a little while,
He who is coming will come and will not delay.

Rom 13:11And do this, understanding the occasion. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day has drawn near. So let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light

The question is, do you believe that love has not been perfected in the church such that we do not know God and God does not dwell in us? Because loving one another is knowing God.

presidente · Jan 18, 2020

Noose said:

Are you saying that neither Paul nor the Corinthians knew God when Paul wrote I Corinthians? Paul wrote about knowing in part versus knowing fully. Paul knew God... but he knew in part, as we all do now.

Like us, believers in the first century were saved, were being saved and will be saved.

Partial knowledge will be replaced with complete knowledge. John says that we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. We still await the salvation from heaven when Christ returns.

If our knowledge is complete, why do you disagree with basic historical doctrines of the church regarding Christ's return and the resurrection of the dead? Either the knowledge of the church is incomplete or your knowledge is incomplete.

Jackson123 · Jan 18, 2020

Noose said:

So Paul and Peter figurativelly resurect and figurativelly prophecy?

When this figurative thing happen?

And what is this figurative thing realy mean?

In the bible some time Jesus Use parable

Matt 13

13 Later that same day Jesus left the house and sat beside the lake. 2 A large crowd soon gathered around him, so he got into a boat. Then he sat there and taught as the people stood on the shore. 3 He told many stories in the form of parables, such as this one:
“Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seeds. 4 As he scattered them across his field, some seeds fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate them. 5 Other seeds fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seeds sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow. 6 But the plants soon wilted under the hot sun, and since they didn’t have deep roots, they died. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants. 8 Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted! 9 Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.”

Soil in this parable is not real soil It is figurative of human

You say prophecy in rev 11 is figurative.

What is the real meaning of prophecy in rev 11

Absolutely · Jan 18, 2020

Noose said:

What does this mean?

Col 1:
20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.

21Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. 22But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— 23if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creaturee under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Are you thinking God does nothing and you just proved he is strictly abstract?

Noose · Jan 18, 2020

presidente said:

We are talking about unity in love, this is what makes up the church (Eph 4). If we are talking about unity in love then there's no way Paul would have segregated himself as much as he was laying the foundation, he was part of this church. That is the reason he said 'we'. If the 1st century church did not achieve achieve that unity in love then the apostles failed and God failed.

The partial is the gifts, the complete is the unity in love. In 1 Cor 13:7, Paul is saying love beareth all things including faith, which means that once that unity is achieved in love, then knowledge (gift) ceases in the one who was edifying others through this knowledge but knowledge becomes complete in me who was being edified by the other person.

This is exactly what Eph 4 says:

11And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for works of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ Himself, who is the head. 16From Him the whole body, fitted and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love through the work of each individual part.

Yes, saved after they had matured through love which means the gift ceased for where there's love, the partial ceases.

But it says when the perfect comes, the incomplete passes away.
John says loving others is knowing God. So, again, love bears all things including this knowledge that's the reason all partial disappears when love is perfected.

It simply means one or non of us is right. Which means one or non of us belongs to the church.

Noose · Jan 18, 2020

Absolutely said:

What do you mean?

Noose · Jan 18, 2020

Jackson123 said:

So Paul and Peter figurativelly resurect and figurativelly prophecy?

When this figurative thing happen?

And what is this figurative thing realy mean?

In the bible some time Jesus Use parable

Matt 13

13 Later that same day Jesus left the house and sat beside the lake. 2 A large crowd soon gathered around him, so he got into a boat. Then he sat there and taught as the people stood on the shore. 3 He told many stories in the form of parables, such as this one:
“Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seeds. 4 As he scattered them across his field, some seeds fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate them. 5 Other seeds fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seeds sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow. 6 But the plants soon wilted under the hot sun, and since they didn’t have deep roots, they died. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants. 8 Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted! 9 Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.”

Soil in this parable is not real soil It is figurative of human

You say prophecy in rev 11 is figurative.

What is the real meaning of prophecy in rev 11

No, only the time 3.5 years is figurative IMO, not the prophesy.

Jackson123 · Jan 18, 2020

Noose said:

So only 31/2 years is figurative

How about the ressurection of Oaul and Oeter like you say is that figurative?

You say prophecy that mention in rev 11 is real, not figurative, when that happen is that before Canon?

11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Dave-L · Jan 18, 2020

presidente said:

Cessationism is the belief that gifts of the Spirit, or certain gifts, ceased in the first century or at some later time. One theory is that I Corinthians 13 teaches this idea. Many cessationists reject the idea that 'that which is perfect' in the passage refers to the completed canon.

John Calvin's commentary on the chapter argued that the idea that the perfect referred to the 'intervening time' between either resurrection or death as 'stupid' or 'foolish' depending on your translation. While the idea that 'that which is perfect' seems to be out of favor with the more academic cessationists who study Greek, it still retains some popularity among the rank and file.

Is there any hint in I Corinthians that Paul discusses a completed canon of scripture? No. Does this assumption fit the context? No.

I Corinthians 13
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul compares his speech, thought, and understanding before the perfect came to that of a child, whereas that afterward would be as an adults.

Did Paul's speech, thought, and understanding change into that of an adult's when Revelation was written? No. He was asleep in Christ. Paul makes the passage personally about him. He will, however, experience the resurrection.

Suppose you want to 'stretch' this passage. Can you say that the speech, thought, and understanding of believers who lived after Revelation was so advanced compared to 1st century Paul's that his seemed like that of a child?

Not only does that position put the reader in a superior position to the apostles who wrote scripture, but it also is not true. Many of us read Paul's writings as believers, and years later gain a deeper understanding of them as we continue to read. The light bulb goes off and we get a new insight that Paul clearly had before us...an area where he was more 'perfect' than we were in our understanding.

It also does not make sense that if a group of kindergarteners write a book for infants, and if the infants gain a copy of the book or read it all, that they will suddenly grow up in their understanding to be like adults. Making yourself out to be an adult in understanding and the apostles to be children is not a good way too look at the scriptures, either.

Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

The New Testament is written so that we might attain to the level of the understanding the apostles had of the mystery of Christ. There is no guarantee in it that we will make their understanding like that of a child's in comparison by reading the scriptures.

I Corinthians 1
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here, as Paul starts out a letter in which he will address a number of themes, he hints at some of the topics he will address in chapters 12 through 15. Chapter 12 teaches on spiritual gifts, while chapters 13 through 14 and especially 14 focus on tongues and prophesying-- utterance gifts. Notice all utterance and all knowledge and compare to knowledge, tongues, and prophecy in chapter 13.

Chapter 15 teaches about the resurrection of the dead at the return of the Lord Jesus (at his coming.) Paul also refers to the 'end' in chapter 15 when he writes 'and then cometh the end'-- a grammatically inflected form of the same Greek word used here in 1:8 (Strong's G5056.)

Here in chapter 1, we see writes of the Corinthian church and believers everywhere coming behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the 'lens' or 'exegetical key' we should use to interpret chapter 13. We should not read in some later theory or concept that is not even hinted at in the whole book, as those who argue that he is writing about the completed canon do.

This is possibly a radical departure from the popular pro and con views. But I think people fail to differentiate between Joel's Gift of the Holy Spirit and Jesus' Baptism of the Holy Spirit. In brief, all believers receive the gift of the Holy Spirit since Pentecost. But only those in the two outpourings, and those whom an apostle laid hands on received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues.
And the Baptism of the Holy Spirit ended with the death of the apostles. Being replaced with NT scripture.

Paul said we knew in part with tongues and prophecy. But now scripture thoroughly furnishes us.

Noose · Jan 18, 2020

Jackson123 said:

Yes 3.5 years is figurative

Peter and Paul resurrected long time ago IMO. I have given verses that suggest that, you needed to interrogate them.

Rev 11 is retrospective (talking back) to what had already happened that's why John is told to prophesy again just before Rev 11.

Jackson123 · Jan 18, 2020

Noose said:

We know how gospel wrote don't we

Say the gospel of John.

John is witnesing what Jesus teach during His ministry oN earth. Than John wrote of what he SAW.

Not in the book of revelation. John SAW a visions or message from the angel

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

It say wich must shortly come to pass.

To me the book of revelation is not happen yet when the angel talk to john

But you believe Paul and Peter die and resurect in the first century and prophecy before angel asking John to wrote or canonized the book of revelation?

Can you explain in detail what the cronology was?

notuptome · Jan 18, 2020

presidente said:

The bible is way more than a book. The bible is the inspired word of God given to the church. The bible is given that the man of God may be thoroughly furnished unto good works.

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

What God has given is sufficient or complete and supplies all we need to know God and to know ourselves as God wants us to know.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jackson123 · Jan 18, 2020

Noose said:

So you believe Paul and Peter resurrect is real not figurative,

How do you know, what verse in the bible tell the story that Paul and Peter was resurrected and life for 1230 days (you believe 1230 days is figurative). Than murder

I give you Example in matt 13

Jesus give parable
, soil in matt 13 is figurative for human.

You say 1230 days in rev 11 If figurative, for what?

presidente · Jan 18, 2020

Noose said:

Look at this quote from Judges,
And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

Your adding the words 'unity in love.' Paul wrote about coming to the full measure of the stature of Christ.

In I Corinthians 13, Paul writes about that which is in part being done away. He wrote that now we know in part, but then we shall know as we are fully known.

Paul does not say that the gift of knowledge will be done away with. Partialness of knowledge will be done away with. Knowing in part will be replaced with knowing fully. And he does not say that this will happen when love comes. He says at the end of the chapter that love already abides. Being perfected in love is a good and necessary thing, but that is not what Paul is talking about in I Corinthians 13. Paul's point when he says if he speaks with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love.... is not that tongues is unnecessary when there is love. Gifts must be exercised with love. He is exhorting them to love and explaining that the one who exercises gifts without love is nothing and is profited nothing. You are reading a strange idea into the passage that just is not there.

Since Paul likely did great miracles his readers does not, was that somehow proof that he lacked love? Jesus did great and powerful miracles. Would you criticize our Lord or His love? Greater love hath no man than this, than that a man lay down His life for His friends.

No, he does not say that. That is nearly as convoluted as the posts of our resident poster of convolution.

This is exactly what Eph 4 says:

Do you think John's readers were perfected in love, but since John himself was not, Jesus gave Him a book of prophecy? Prophecy is a gift, after all? Do you think Jesus doing miracles is a reason to doubt His love? Your strange theory can lead to some very bad conclusions. You are not understanding Paul's argument. You read your own theory into the text.

So now someone has to believe just as you do (have all knowledge, supposedly) to be a part of the church?

Let me ask you a question. If this is the case, is there anyone on the planet besides yourself who is a part of the church? That would make it very easy to love everyone else in the church as much as you love yourself.

Does I Corinthians 13 teach certain gifts ceased with the closing of the canon?

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