Does I Corinthians 13 teach certain gifts ceased with the closing of the canon?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
4,752
373
83
#1
Cessationism is the belief that gifts of the Spirit, or certain gifts, ceased in the first century or at some later time. One theory is that I Corinthians 13 teaches this idea. Many cessationists reject the idea that 'that which is perfect' in the passage refers to the completed canon.

John Calvin's commentary on the chapter argued that the idea that the perfect referred to the 'intervening time' between either resurrection or death as 'stupid' or 'foolish' depending on your translation. While the idea that 'that which is perfect' seems to be out of favor with the more academic cessationists who study Greek, it still retains some popularity among the rank and file.

Is there any hint in I Corinthians that Paul discusses a completed canon of scripture? No. Does this assumption fit the context? No.

I Corinthians 13
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul compares his speech, thought, and understanding before the perfect came to that of a child, whereas that afterward would be as an adults.

Did Paul's speech, thought, and understanding change into that of an adult's when Revelation was written? No. He was asleep in Christ. Paul makes the passage personally about him. He will, however, experience the resurrection.

Suppose you want to 'stretch' this passage. Can you say that the speech, thought, and understanding of believers who lived after Revelation was so advanced compared to 1st century Paul's that his seemed like that of a child?

Not only does that position put the reader in a superior position to the apostles who wrote scripture, but it also is not true. Many of us read Paul's writings as believers, and years later gain a deeper understanding of them as we continue to read. The light bulb goes off and we get a new insight that Paul clearly had before us...an area where he was more 'perfect' than we were in our understanding.


It also does not make sense that if a group of kindergarteners write a book for infants, and if the infants gain a copy of the book or read it all, that they will suddenly grow up in their understanding to be like adults. Making yourself out to be an adult in understanding and the apostles to be children is not a good way too look at the scriptures, either.

Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

The New Testament is written so that we might attain to the level of the understanding the apostles had of the mystery of Christ. There is no guarantee in it that we will make their understanding like that of a child's in comparison by reading the scriptures.

I Corinthians 1
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here, as Paul starts out a letter in which he will address a number of themes, he hints at some of the topics he will address in chapters 12 through 15. Chapter 12 teaches on spiritual gifts, while chapters 13 through 14 and especially 14 focus on tongues and prophesying-- utterance gifts. Notice all utterance and all knowledge and compare to knowledge, tongues, and prophecy in chapter 13.

Chapter 15 teaches about the resurrection of the dead at the return of the Lord Jesus (at his coming.) Paul also refers to the 'end' in chapter 15 when he writes 'and then cometh the end'-- a grammatically inflected form of the same Greek word used here in 1:8 (Strong's G5056.)

Here in chapter 1, we see writes of the Corinthian church and believers everywhere coming behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the 'lens' or 'exegetical key' we should use to interpret chapter 13. We should not read in some later theory or concept that is not even hinted at in the whole book, as those who argue that he is writing about the completed canon do.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,391
3,264
113
#2
Certain gifts will cease come the Kingdom for we will all speak the same tongue, that of our Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. There will be no need of healers or prohets for allwill have been fulfilled…………...While the Kingdom is not with us nor we in it, all the gifts are still quite with us.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,923
3,540
113
#3
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Everyone should carefully note that Paul chose his words carefully. He said "when that which is complete* (translated as perfect) is come, then that which is incomplete (in part) shall be done away". He did NOT say "When He who is perfect is come" (referring to Christ).

* Strong's Concordance
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect
Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.


Thus we have these translations:
New International Version
but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
New Heart English Bible
but when that which is complete has come, that which is partial will be done away with.

This can only be applied to Scripture, and all Scripture is prophetic (2 Peter 1). At the time that Paul was PROPHETICALLY writing to the Corinthians (c 53-54 AD), several books of the NT had not been added. But prophecies would cease, and they certainly did after John wrote the Revelation (c 95 AD). Indeed John made it clear that no one was to add to his prophecies.

Since Paul selected just three spiritual gifts which would cease -- prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge -- why does anyone have a problem with believing that prophecies and Scripture would cease after 95 AD? Indeed, none of the Apostolic Fathers who came after the apostles claimed to be either apostles or prophets.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
7,705
923
113
#4
Everyone should carefully note that Paul chose his words carefully. He said "when that which is complete* (translated as perfect) is come, then that which is incomplete (in part) shall be done away". He did NOT say "When He who is perfect is come" (referring to Christ).

* Strong's Concordance
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect
Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.


Thus we have these translations:
New International Version
but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
New Heart English Bible
but when that which is complete has come, that which is partial will be done away with.

This can only be applied to Scripture, and all Scripture is prophetic (2 Peter 1). At the time that Paul was PROPHETICALLY writing to the Corinthians (c 53-54 AD), several books of the NT had not been added. But prophecies would cease, and they certainly did after John wrote the Revelation (c 95 AD). Indeed John made it clear that no one was to add to his prophecies.

Since Paul selected just three spiritual gifts which would cease -- prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge -- why does anyone have a problem with believing that prophecies and Scripture would cease after 95 AD? Indeed, none of the Apostolic Fathers who came after the apostles claimed to be either apostles or prophets.
Brother, I see it differently.

13:10 “That which is perfect” - a reference to the 2nd Advent of Christ. It is not a reference to the Bible because it is perfect, (in spite of what some scholars say). It is not a reference to the Holy Spirit, because he is already here indwelling the believers.

It is clear that this is a reference to the 2nd Advent for in (vs. 12) the term “face to face” is used, and that can only mean face to face with Jesus Christ (Rev. 22:4) where God himself will wipe away all tears (Rev. 21:4).

“That which is in part” - Prophecies, Tongues, etc.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
7,705
923
113
#5
Brother, I see it differently.

13:10 “That which is perfect” - a reference to the 2nd Advent of Christ. It is not a reference to the Bible because it is perfect, (in spite of what some scholars say). It is not a reference to the Holy Spirit, because he is already here indwelling the believers.

It is clear that this is a reference to the 2nd Advent for in (vs. 12) the term “face to face” is used, and that can only mean face to face with Jesus Christ (Rev. 22:4) where God himself will wipe away all tears (Rev. 21:4).

“That which is in part” - Prophecies, Tongues, etc.
13:8 All else fails, but Charity never does.
Prophecies fail - because they come to pass.

Tongues cease because they were a sign to Israel (1 Cor. 1:22; 14:22) and the signs are done away with in the millennium at the Lord’s coming.

Knowledge vanishes because we will have perfect knowledge after the Rapture.

13:9 Before the Old & New Testaments were complete there was only a partial revelation through prophecy & knowledge.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,923
3,540
113
#6
It is clear that this is a reference to the 2nd Advent for in (vs. 12) the term “face to face” is used...
Actually there are two thoughts given here side by side. The first one is the completeness of Scripture. And the second one is the completeness of our knowledge of Christ when we see Him face to face in our perfection at the Rapture. So the way to view this passage is in two parts. (As we know, the Greek was written continuously, with no paragraph or chapter division).

PART I -- THE COMPLETENESS OF SCRIPTURE
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there beknowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect
[complete] is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


PART II - THE COMPLETENESS OF OUR KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know
[fully or completely] even as also I am known.


And in the meantime agape love (charity) is the only thing that counts.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
1,589
347
83
#7
Certain gifts will cease come the Kingdom for we will all speak the same tongue, that of our Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. There will be no need of healers or prohets for allwill have been fulfilled…………...While the Kingdom is not with us nor we in it, all the gifts are still quite with us.

Luke 11:20But I use the power of God to force out demons. This shows that God’s kingdom has now come to you.

Acts 8:12But Philip told the people the Good News about God’s kingdom and the power of Jesus Christ. Men and women believed Philip and were baptized.

Acts 20:25“And now listen to me. I know that none of you will ever see me again. All the time I was with you, I told you the Good News about God’s kingdom.

Acts 28:23Paul and the Jews chose a day for a meeting. On that day many more of these Jews met with Paul at his house. He spoke to them all day long, explaining God’s kingdom to them. He used the Law of Moses and the writings of the prophets to persuade them to believe in Jesus.

Romans 14:17In God’s kingdom, what we eat and drink is not important. Here is what is important: a right way of life, peace, and joy—all from the Holy Spirit.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
4,752
373
83
#8
Everyone should carefully note that Paul chose his words carefully. He said "when that which is complete* (translated as perfect) is come, then that which is incomplete (in part) shall be done away". He did NOT say "When He who is perfect is come" (referring to Christ).
That is a straw man argument. The perfect/completeness Paul speaks off will effect his speech, knowledge, and understanding. I am not saying that he is using telios to refer to the Lord Jesus, but that the perfection he refers to comes to at or after the return of Christ. Paul goes on to write about the resurrection and transformation of those who do not sleep, where the corruptible puts on incorruptible and the mortal puts on immorality. He also wrotes, 'And then cometh the end...' which would seem to occur after the resurrection.

These are the complete/perfect things we have to look forward to that the book actually tells us about.

Paul associates perfection with the resurrection of the dead in Philippians 3.

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

[quote
* Strong's Concordance
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect
Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

[/quote]

'Completeness of Christian character' does not fit well with this passage, though it may be a good loose description of how the term is used in other passages. 'Perfect' is probably a word translators would not have chosen if the Bible had first been translated into English in the 21st century.

Thus we have these translations:
New International Version
but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
New Heart English Bible
but when that which is complete has come, that which is partial will be done away with.

This can only be applied to Scripture,
Your statement there is obviously false. Philippians 3:11 disproves that. Paul was not talking about himself attaining to the resurrection and becoming the scripture.

and all Scripture is prophetic (2 Peter 1). At the time that Paul was PROPHETICALLY writing to the Corinthians (c 53-54 AD), several books of the NT had not been added.
If all scripture is prophetic, that still does not mean that I Corinthians 13 is talking about a completed canon. Look for the arguments within the book to figure out what he is talking about. Don't eisegete your own theories into it.

But prophecies would cease, and they certainly did after John wrote the Revelation (c 95 AD). Indeed John made it clear that no one was to add to his prophecies.
Revelation tells us about the blood of prophets in Babylon and predicts that two witnesses would prophesy. The curses for adding to 'this scroll' do not say that anyone who prophesies is adding to the scroll of the book of Revelation. How many people have you seen trying to add a prophecy to the book of Revelation? Your argument makes no sense.

Since Paul selected just three spiritual gifts which would cease -- prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge -- why does anyone have a problem with believing that prophecies and Scripture would cease after 95 AD?
Because the Bible says to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints and the Bible does not teach that prophecy ceased after 95 AD. And prophecy did not cease in 95 AD, since churches continued to experience it in their meetings. The Shepherd of Hermas mentions this. Irenaeus wrote about prophesying in his day. He considered rejecting prophecy to be a characteristic of the heresies.

Indeed, none of the Apostolic Fathers who came after the apostles claimed to be either apostles or prophets.
Have you checked these writings to see? I read that Athanasius had quite a reputation as a prophet. Whether the authors who men have dubbed with this grandiouse title 'father' (neither call any many your father on the earth for one is your Father which is in heaven), called themselves 'prophets', some of them wrote of the gift of prophecy in the church. Justin wrote of prophets in the church. If you read the writings of Eusebius, which consists partly of quotes from earlier works plugged into his narrative, a theme when you get to the part about the Montanists is that the church acknowledged that the gift of prophecy was real, acknowledged people they had considered to be prophets in the church, but did not accept Montanus as a genuine prophet.

There are a number of web pages that list quotes from these authors regarding their affirming the contemporary operation of the gifts of the Spirit. Warfield developed part of his extra-biblical cessationist argument to account for Ireneaus' affirmation of prophecy, healing, foreknowledge, tongues, resurrection from the dead, etc. in his own day.

There are plenty of sources you can read to debunk the idea that the church was or believed in cessationism during this period. If you can get a hold of 'The Spirit and the Church: Antiquity" by Stanley M. Burgess, you can read an in-depth treatment of this issue. His book contains quotes from Athanasius regarding the gift of prophecy. You can also look at the first half of Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History. There is also a work from the 1800's, a masters thesis, I think, The Suppressed Evidence. It is mostly in English. I think there is some Latin and Dutch in that one, though.
 

JohnR7

Active member
Dec 30, 2019
305
89
28
#9
Cessationism is the belief that gifts of the Spirit, or certain gifts, ceased in the first century or at some later time.
Actually just the opposite is true. The annotating at the end of this age to bring the final harvest in is greater then the annotating in the beginning. "then I will give you the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the latter rain, that you may gather in your grain, your new wine, and your oil." (Deu 11:14)

The Bible we have was written for us and pertains to us. Even as today we will be writing books that people will read during the Kingdom age to encourage them and give them hope. I talked to Paul about this in a vision once. The early church did not know how the church at the end of this age would accept their teachings. The idea that the early church teachings do not apply to us today is nonsense designed to confuse people and take them away from the truth.

We do not need man to teach us. We have the Holy Spirit of God to be our Teacher and our Guide. To take us into all truth.
 

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
2,027
1,268
113
Texas
#10
I have been thinking about this subject matter lately, because I tend to lean toward cessation but am not convinced fully, simply because I believe God can do with a vessel as he wishes, and if needs be he can use a vessel to speak in tongues, or grant knowledge, as he sees fit. I don't tend to want to put God in a box.
My cessation leanings actually comes from a passage in which Philip has ministered to the Sumerians and they believe and are baptized and his ministry is followed by signs and wonders yet none of his new converts receive the Holy Spirit until Peter and John come. So my point being that Philip was clearly Spirit filled and did miracles yet either neglected to or couldn't pass on the gift. It is hard for me to believe he neglected something so powerful and important.

Then you also have the story of the Ethiopian in the chariot; also baptized by Philip yet no passing of the gift. Why? This seems as though it would be very important yet not mentioned.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,929
6,188
113
#11
But prophecies would cease, and they certainly did after John wrote the Revelation (c 95 AD).
That's a circular argument.

Indeed John made it clear that no one was to add to his prophecies.
What John essentially said was "Don't mess with this book." The argument is self-refuting for if there were no more prophecies, there would be nothing that could be added to the book.
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
8,819
3,813
113
#13
Actually just the opposite is true. The annotating at the end of this age to bring the final harvest in is greater then the annotating in the beginning. "then I will give you the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the latter rain, that you may gather in your grain, your new wine, and your oil." (Deu 11:14)

The Bible we have was written for us and pertains to us. Even as today we will be writing books that people will read during the Kingdom age to encourage them and give them hope. I talked to Paul about this in a vision once. The early church did not know how the church at the end of this age would accept their teachings. The idea that the early church teachings do not apply to us today is nonsense designed to confuse people and take them away from the truth.

We do not need man to teach us. We have the Holy Spirit of God to be our Teacher and our Guide. To take us into all truth.

so how's ole Paul doing?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
2,636
511
113
#14
Cessationism is the belief that gifts of the Spirit, or certain gifts, ceased in the first century or at some later time. One theory is that I Corinthians 13 teaches this idea. Many cessationists reject the idea that 'that which is perfect' in the passage refers to the completed canon.

John Calvin's commentary on the chapter argued that the idea that the perfect referred to the 'intervening time' between either resurrection or death as 'stupid' or 'foolish' depending on your translation. While the idea that 'that which is perfect' seems to be out of favor with the more academic cessationists who study Greek, it still retains some popularity among the rank and file.

Is there any hint in I Corinthians that Paul discusses a completed canon of scripture? No. Does this assumption fit the context? No.

I Corinthians 13
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul compares his speech, thought, and understanding before the perfect came to that of a child, whereas that afterward would be as an adults.

Did Paul's speech, thought, and understanding change into that of an adult's when Revelation was written? No. He was asleep in Christ. Paul makes the passage personally about him. He will, however, experience the resurrection.

Suppose you want to 'stretch' this passage. Can you say that the speech, thought, and understanding of believers who lived after Revelation was so advanced compared to 1st century Paul's that his seemed like that of a child?

Not only does that position put the reader in a superior position to the apostles who wrote scripture, but it also is not true. Many of us read Paul's writings as believers, and years later gain a deeper understanding of them as we continue to read. The light bulb goes off and we get a new insight that Paul clearly had before us...an area where he was more 'perfect' than we were in our understanding.


It also does not make sense that if a group of kindergarteners write a book for infants, and if the infants gain a copy of the book or read it all, that they will suddenly grow up in their understanding to be like adults. Making yourself out to be an adult in understanding and the apostles to be children is not a good way too look at the scriptures, either.

Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

The New Testament is written so that we might attain to the level of the understanding the apostles had of the mystery of Christ. There is no guarantee in it that we will make their understanding like that of a child's in comparison by reading the scriptures.

I Corinthians 1
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here, as Paul starts out a letter in which he will address a number of themes, he hints at some of the topics he will address in chapters 12 through 15. Chapter 12 teaches on spiritual gifts, while chapters 13 through 14 and especially 14 focus on tongues and prophesying-- utterance gifts. Notice all utterance and all knowledge and compare to knowledge, tongues, and prophecy in chapter 13.

Chapter 15 teaches about the resurrection of the dead at the return of the Lord Jesus (at his coming.) Paul also refers to the 'end' in chapter 15 when he writes 'and then cometh the end'-- a grammatically inflected form of the same Greek word used here in 1:8 (Strong's G5056.)

Here in chapter 1, we see writes of the Corinthian church and believers everywhere coming behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the 'lens' or 'exegetical key' we should use to interpret chapter 13. We should not read in some later theory or concept that is not even hinted at in the whole book, as those who argue that he is writing about the completed canon do.
I think the main gift that is debated is the gift of healing.

Did Jesus heal in the 4 Gospels mainly because
  • He always wants to heal? Or
  • To show the Jews that he was indeed the promised Messiah?
Cessationalists have the doctrine that it is mainly the latter. Thus, many miracles of healing did not require faith in the part of the receiver, although some probably did.

There were people raised from the dead, blind restored sight, lame started walking, and Jesus at quite a number of times declared that those healings were done to fulfill the prophecies about their coming Messiah (Luke 7:18-22).

Now the healings done by Christians are far less "powerful" and "certain" than what happened then. I think its quite clear that something has changed. We put so much emphasis on faith on the part of the receiver now.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
4,752
373
83
#15
I have been thinking about this subject matter lately, because I tend to lean toward cessation but am not convinced fully, simply because I believe God can do with a vessel as he wishes, and if needs be he can use a vessel to speak in tongues, or grant knowledge, as he sees fit. I don't tend to want to put God in a box.
My cessation leanings actually comes from a passage in which Philip has ministered to the Sumerians and they believe and are baptized and his ministry is followed by signs and wonders yet none of his new converts receive the Holy Spirit until Peter and John come. So my point being that Philip was clearly Spirit filled and did miracles yet either neglected to or couldn't pass on the gift. It is hard for me to believe he neglected something so powerful and important.

Then you also have the story of the Ethiopian in the chariot; also baptized by Philip yet no passing of the gift. Why? This seems as though it would be very important yet not mentioned.
One thing to consider is that that may not be the role of an evangelist or deacon. Or he could have just been new at what he was doing.

Timothy received a gift through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders.

The Spirit sent out two apostles in Acts 13, and did not go through the laying on of hands of the apostles to do so-- or at least not in Paul's case since they that seemed to be somewhat added nothing to him.

In the case of the Samaritans, this was a unique event since it was the first time since the resurrection... that we know of... that Samaritans put their faith in Christ and needed to be accepted into the church.

I Corinthians 12 teaches that spiritual gifts are given as the Spirit wills. One may even pray to operate in a gift (I Corinthins 14:13.)
 

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
2,027
1,268
113
Texas
#16
Actually just the opposite is true. The annotating at the end of this age to bring the final harvest in is greater then the annotating in the beginning. "then I will give you the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the latter rain, that you may gather in your grain, your new wine, and your oil." (Deu 11:14)

The Bible we have was written for us and pertains to us. Even as today we will be writing books that people will read during the Kingdom age to encourage them and give them hope. I talked to Paul about this in a vision once. The early church did not know how the church at the end of this age would accept their teachings. The idea that the early church teachings do not apply to us today is nonsense designed to confuse people and take them away from the truth.

We do not need man to teach us. We have the Holy Spirit of God to be our Teacher and our Guide. To take us into all truth.
Talked to Paul huh?
Didn't Saul talk to a deceased Samuel.
Isn't speaking to the those who have passed divination, and idolatry.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
2,165
378
83
#17
The Church is the Church and the same operation for the Church throughout the history of the Church.

Why would these things occur in the first century but not apply today.

For people are the same and have not changed, and it appears they want an excuse for why these things do not occur so much now so they must have ceased.

But hypocrisy is a big reason why these things do not occur, and hypocrisy equals no faith, and there is more hypocrites than there is people acting like Christ.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons do not praise Jesus for who He really is, and Catholics want to exalt Mary, and look up to the Pope, and many Churches that are hypocritical, so there is not going to be a lot of miracles taking place.

1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:13  And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Charity is greater than faith, and hope, for faith and hope are not needed in heaven, but love will go on forever.

I do not believe it is saying that anything shall cease on earth but when we get to heaven they are not needed anymore, like faith, and hope, but charity never fails for it will go on forever.

Out of all we did on earth only love will go on forever.

If tongues were for back then why would they not be for today, and whatever reason there was tongues back then why is that reason not valid today.

If healing was for back then why would it not be for today.

And if they said these miracles back then was a witness then why don't people need the witness today when there are still sinners today like there were back then.
 

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
2,027
1,268
113
Texas
#18
One thing to consider is that that may not be the role of an evangelist or deacon. Or he could have just been new at what he was doing.

Timothy received a gift through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders.

The Spirit sent out two apostles in Acts 13, and did not go through the laying on of hands of the apostles to do so-- or at least not in Paul's case since they that seemed to be somewhat added nothing to him.

In the case of the Samaritans, this was a unique event since it was the first time since the resurrection... that we know of... that Samaritans put their faith in Christ and needed to be accepted into the church.

I Corinthians 12 teaches that spiritual gifts are given as the Spirit wills. One may even pray to operate in a gift (I Corinthins 14:13.)
And the elders at that time were the apostles, no mystery there.
Paul received the Spirit through laying on of hands, it says something to the effect of scales fell off of his eyes and he received the spirit in that same moment.
And Acts chapter 13 they did lay hands on Saul and Barnabas before sending them out. Verse 3.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
4,752
373
83
#19
And the elders at that time were the apostles, no mystery there.
Where do you get that idea? Peter calls himself an elder once, but he spent a lot of his time settled in one local congregation, too, and he may have been functioning with the elder group at some point in time. The apostles and elders, are treated as separate groups in Acts, though.

What apostles would Paul have been referring to? Timothy travelled with Paul up in Asia Minor and Greece. Where there any apostles serving as elders of the church up in Derbe, far from Jerusalem?

Paul received the Spirit through laying on of hands, it says something to the effect of scales fell off of his eyes and he received the spirit in that same moment.
Yes, this is another good example. There is no Ananias listed among the twelve apostles in Acts or the Gospels. Yet the Lord spoke to Ananias and had him baptize and lay hands on a man who would be sent as an apostle. Ananias is described as a disciple and a devout Jew. He is not called an apostle, evangelist, deacon, or elder. The Lord used this man who may have been just a 'regular Christian' to enable Saul to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Would Paul have commanded the Ephesians to be filled with the Holy Spirit if they had to wait for an apostle to visit town for them to be filled?

And Acts chapter 13 they did lay hands on Saul and Barnabas before sending them out. Verse 3.
True, but who did so? Local members of the assembly who had received gifts from the Lord, prophets and teachers. IT does not even say that any of them were ordained as elder/overseers.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,923
3,540
113
#20
The perfect/completeness Paul speaks off will effect his speech, knowledge, and understanding.
I have already addressed this above. See post #6. Why are you not content with a complete Bible? That is the real issue.