Mary as the mother of God?

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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#61
Mortal and venial sin is in Scripture. I believe it's in 1 John. Which says there is a sin which does not lead unto death. But some sins are mortal, and lead unto death. With your knowledge of the Bible, you should be able to locate this verse. Take care. Scott


Thanks, and I know this verse well.

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

How can one see if a person committed a sin which lead to death? The person who committed the sin died. He is no longer alive. Some sins do lead to death (ever heard of sexually transmitted diseases, Drunk driver killed because he drove drunk. or the many other sins which can cause death)

John is saying if you see a brother which committed a sin and did not die because of it to pray for him.

Again, did John contradict paul?

rom 6 - for the wage (reward or result) of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.

Is paul talking about ALL sin here. or just a few sins?

Scripture can not contradict. The penalty of sin since adam was death, ALL sin leads to death. John was talking of physical death here, not spiritual.


PS The queen is mentioned in Psalm 45, and who else could this be but the ever-virgin Mary, and where else but in heaven could be the Heavenly King and the queen at his side, at His right hand. Take care.

A queen is the kings wife. If Jesus is the "king" then the queen would not be his "mother" it would be his "bride", And who does scripture call the "bride" figure this out, and you will know who the "queen" is.
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#62
really?... is there a proof for this?

"Friends, "Protestants revile the Theotokos and deny her veneration becasue they have no truly Christian knowledge and understanding of the Holy Scripture, and from sheer, careless mistranslations of the Scripture which they pridefully persist in. An excellent example is the section concerning the wedding at Cana, which so many sectarians twist and seek to turn against the Holy Virgin. Rad John2:1-11 in the King James Version. Protestants claim this section demonstrates Christ's own disregard for His mother ("Woman, what have I to do with you?") However, in the actual text, the correct translationreads:
"3. And when the wine was all gone, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no more wine." 4. Jesus said to her, "Dear woman, what is that to you and Me? My time is not yet come?"
"5. His mother said to the servants, "Whatever He says to you, do it."
"Let us think about this for only a moment. What does the verse actually demontrate? Christ asks, "Why should we care if the wine is one? What difference does it make to us?" Then He makes it plain that the time for Him to work miracles has not yet arrived. In the order of God's plan, it is not yet time for Him to begin this work. But as we read on in this chapter, we discover that he does work the miracle? Why? Because of Mary's intercession. And think of it. Because of the intercession of the Theotokos, the order of God's plan is changed. Christ works the miracle before the time has come. How powerful, then, are the intercessions of the Theotokos shown to be. Moreover, she is shown to be His first apostle, since she instructs the servants, "Whatever He tells you, do it." (pages 32-33: The Point of Faith Handboook, Point of Faith Number 1. Archbishop Lazar Puhalo. Synaxis Press, The Canadian Orthodox Publishing House, Dewdney, BC. Canada.).

God bless the Theotokos. God bless us all. Through the prayers of Thy Most Pure Mother, LORD Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us; AMEN.

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#63
"Friends, "Protestants revile the Theotokos and deny her veneration becasue they have no truly Christian knowledge and understanding of the Holy Scripture, and from sheer, careless mistranslations of the Scripture which they pridefully persist in. An excellent example is the section concerning the wedding at Cana, which so many sectarians twist and seek to turn against the Holy Virgin. Rad John2:1-11 in the King James Version. Protestants claim this section demonstrates Christ's own disregard for His mother ("Woman, what have I to do with you?") However, in the actual text, the correct translationreads:
"3. And when the wine was all gone, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no more wine." 4. Jesus said to her, "Dear woman, what is that to you and Me? My time is not yet come?"

"5. His mother said to the servants, "Whatever He says to you, do it."
"Let us think about this for only a moment. What does the verse actually demontrate? Christ asks, "Why should we care if the wine is one? What difference does it make to us?" Then He makes it plain that the time for Him to work miracles has not yet arrived. In the order of God's plan, it is not yet time for Him to begin this work. But as we read on in this chapter, we discover that he does work the miracle? Why? Because of Mary's intercession. And think of it. Because of the intercession of the Theotokos, the order of God's plan is changed. Christ works the miracle before the time has come. How powerful, then, are the intercessions of the Theotokos shown to be. Moreover, she is shown to be His first apostle, since she instructs the servants, "Whatever He tells you, do it." (pages 32-33: The Point of Faith Handboook, Point of Faith Number 1. Archbishop Lazar Puhalo. Synaxis Press, The Canadian Orthodox Publishing House, Dewdney, BC. Canada.).

God bless the Theotokos. God bless us all. Through the prayers of Thy Most Pure Mother, LORD Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us; AMEN.

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
In response to the Bolded aspect of your quote;

You state that the literal interpretation should be "what is that to you and me" or as the "NASB" puts it, What does that have to do with us"

The literal greek used is

Ti (what) Eime (I) Kai (And or Also) Soy (you)

The problem is, This phrase is used elsewhere in Scripture.

Mark 1: 24 "What business do we have with each other" or KJV : "What have we to do with you" Which both phrases mean exactly the same thing. just worded differently.

Mark 5: 7: "What business do we have with each other," or NKJV "What have I to do with You"

Again both mean the same. Always it is used to show a separation or difference between the two in question. Never used to mean the same, as you want it to say.

It is used in many other places, and always means the same thing. Which is not what you are declaring it to mean.

Second, this "phrase" was a common greek phrase which referred to a difference in realm or relation.

finally.

You stated Jesus saying "my time had not yet come" means that the time for his miracles had not yet come.

Yet this same phrase is used many times in the gospels. and is never meant to mean that he is not ready to do miracles. so should never be translated to mean just this.
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#64
really?... is there a proof for this?
Dear friend,
"VENERATION OF THE THEOTOKOS

"[There is only one Lord and Saviour of mankind, Jesus Christ, as the Scripture says "There

is salvation in no-one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by

which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). Nevertheless, we are called upon to be "co-workers

with Christ in salvation" (2 Cor. 6:1) and we can "save" others by leading them to the Source

of Salvation, and rescuing them from falling away from salvation, as Apostle Paul says: "I

have become all things to all men, that I might by all means and in any way, save them"

(1 Cor. 9:22). And, he wrote to Bishop Timothy, "Look well to yourself and to your teach-

ing; persevere in these things, hold to them; for by so doing you will save both yourself

and those who hear you" (1 Tim. 4:16). Moreover, in the same context, we often use the

expression, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us." No one would suggest that we are our own

saviours, or that the Apostle Paul and the holy Bishop Timothy or the Theotokos are

saviours in place of Christ, even though the Divine Scripture clearly says that they can

"save" others.

"Nevertheless, all Orthodox Christians are called upon to serve in the process of the

salvation of each other and of the world, both through their prayer, the active witness of

a life of Christian love and struggle, and by the very act of working out their own

salvation. The saints who have become filled with Grace and received the greater gifts

of the Holy Spirit, are foremost in this process of mutual salvation. Sectarians who are

angered at our Orthodox veneration of the Most Holy Theotokos (and of the saints) and

who spew malice on our pleas for their intercessions are ignorant of the true nature of

redemption. They hold a totally pagan notion that Christ saved us by offering Himself

as a vicarious, punitive sacrifice, to fulfill the Father's "justice" and satisfy His offended

honor. Indeed, the Protestant/ Latin teaching really comes down to the doctrine that

Christ died to save us from God the Father. In reality, however, salvation consists i9n the

union of the faithful with the life of God, in the Body of Christ (the Holy Church), where the

evil-one and his power are being progressively and really destroyed in the life of co-

suffering love and mutual struggle of true believers." (pages 30-31: Archbishop Lazar

Puhalo, The Point of Faith HANDBOOK: Point of Faith Number One. SYNAXIS PRESS,

The Canadian Orthodox Publishing House, Dewdney, BC, Canada.).

Through the prayers of the Ever-Virgin Mary, of Blessed Saint Andrew the First-Called

Apostle of our Lord, and of all of Thy Saints, LORD Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy

upon us; AMEN AND AMEN. In Erie PA USA March 31, 2011 AD (n.c.).

Take care.


 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#65


Thanks, and I know this verse well.

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

How can one see if a person committed a sin which lead to death? The person who committed the sin died. He is no longer alive. Some sins do lead to death (ever heard of sexually transmitted diseases, Drunk driver killed because he drove drunk. or the many other sins which can cause death)

John is saying if you see a brother which committed a sin and did not die because of it to pray for him.

Again, did John contradict paul?

rom 6 - for the wage (reward or result) of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.

Is paul talking about ALL sin here. or just a few sins?

Scripture can not contradict. The penalty of sin since adam was death, ALL sin leads to death. John was talking of physical death here, not spiritual.


A queen is the kings wife. If Jesus is the "king" then the queen would not be his "mother" it would be his "bride", And who does scripture call the "bride" figure this out, and you will know who the "queen" is.

Name one Christian in apostolic succession between 70 AD and 200 AD who did not believe

the Virgin is the queen of Psalm 45? If you are going by what the early church believed,

you should go by what they wrote and said. Is not the Virgin Mary the Mother of all

Christians, and the Queen of the Church? What other woman in the Bride of Christ, the

Church, has a better place of honor and respect and grace than the all immaculate Mother

of God? In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington


 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#66
Name one Christian in apostolic succession between 70 AD and 200 AD who did not believe



Name where peter or anyone handed the reigns over to anyone to have apostolic succession.

the Virgin is the queen of Psalm 45?
Sorry I do not listen to men, especially men I have never seen. I have the HS and am perfectly capable of looking at a verse and seeing what is being said. Yes I can read what others say, and teach. But God command us to test what they all say (using scripture) to prove who is from God and who is not.

I am sure there were many who did not hold this belief in this time period. Yet I was not there, And the roman church would have probably destroyed any document who did not hold their faith (they killed and jailed people for over 1000 years who did not believe as they did in the name of the roman empire and God, what is to say they, when they had power) did not destroy all documents which did the same? We can't prove it. so all historical documents should be looked at with caution, for they are not inspired by God.



If you are going by what the early church believed,


Sorry, But I have looked in the NT and I see nothing about what the early church believed about this passage in psalms. If God wanted us to see this. He would have put it in his inspired word.

you should go by what they wrote and said. Is not the Virgin Mary the Mother of all

Christians, and the Queen of the Church? What other woman in the Bride of Christ, the

Church, has a better place of honor and respect and grace than the all immaculate Mother

of God? In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
Actually the true church and their true inspired by God writings (the NT) states the bride of Christ is the church. We are his bride, to be married at the marriage supper of the lamb (which has not happened yet)
But which the Apostle John got a glimpse of, and put in his book of prophesy for the world to see. No where does the NT tell us about Christ being married to anyone else.

Mary is his mother, not his wife, And she certainly is not the mother of the church. Unless she is the wife of the Father!
 
C

Crazy4GODword

Guest
#67
So, now you're denying the incarnation? Yes, He was Spirit, but He was/is also flesh. And that flesh came from His mother.
whoa bro what are ya getting to now? Jesus is 100% God and man,,,not just flesh
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#68
Name where peter or anyone handed the reigns over to anyone to have apostolic succession.

[/b]

Sorry I do not listen to men, especially men I have never seen. I have the HS and am perfectly capable of looking at a verse and seeing what is being said.
That is perfectly illogical. You mean you do not listen to men of God? Of course you do. Every Scripture of the NT is from men. It also comes from God. It comes from men of God. And the NT comes from men you have never seen. Perhaps you want to rephrase what you are saying. You do get your understanding from the NT and by the help of the HS (John 16:13). Every Christian relies on the NT and the power of the HS. And the NT comes from men we have never seen. Take care. Scott Erie PA PS Of course, you mean you do not need any man to teach you, you can understand it all all by yourself? Well, good luck! You will make a lot of mistakes if you don't get in touch with history. You should test what you believe by what others believe. You should test what others believe by what you believe. Is there is a difference, it needs to be resolved by prayer and fasting if necessary, and by common consent of all Christians. There needs to be unity of doctrine and practice among Christians (John 17). But you can't be logical if you think the early Christians have nothing to teach us; we can just pick up the book, the Bible, and read it without any preconceptions. If our preconceptions our wrong, our interpretations of certain verses will turn out wrong. As it is, I was corrected today by Cleante, who showed me that my understanding of sin was defective. All sin is sin; it's not right-minded to try and categorize sins as lesser, or better, or worse. All sin is bad. No real distinction such as mortal or venial. Take care.



Yes I can read what others say, and teach. But God command us to test what they all say (using scripture) to prove who is from God and who is not.
The problem with this is that we can be false and make a mistake in judging who is from God and who is not. We can get it wrong, and still we think that it's alright. Anyone can err. Take care. In Erie PA Scott



I am sure there were many who did not hold this belief in this time period. Yet I was not there, And the roman church would have probably destroyed any document who did not hold their faith (they killed and jailed people for over 1000 years who did not believe as they did in the name of the roman empire and God, what is to say they, when they had power) did not destroy all documents which did the same? We can't prove it. so all historical documents should be looked at with caution, for they are not inspired by God.





Sorry, But I have looked in the NT and I see nothing about what the early church believed about this passage in psalms. If God wanted us to see this. He would have put it in his inspired word.



Actually the true church and their true inspired by God writings (the NT) states the bride of Christ is the church. We are his bride, to be married at the marriage supper of the lamb (which has not happened yet)
But which the Apostle John got a glimpse of, and put in his book of prophesy for the world to see. No where does the NT tell us about Christ being married to anyone else.

All this is true; it doesn't solve the issue of which tradition correctly interprets the NT holy Scriptures (along with the OT). Which church is correctly understanding the Bible?
In Erie Scott

Mary is his mother, not his wife, And she certainly is not the mother of the church. Unless she is the wife of the Father! Jesus said to John, "John, behold thy mother." So if Mary is the mother of John, and John is the church and is in the church, then all who are in the church also have Mary as their mother. She is a woman for all Christians. She prays for all. Her protection is a grace of the All-Holy Spirit. She brings Christ to us by her prayer. She said yes to the Father, and thus Christ was born. So we should be thankful and bless Mary that she obeyed God. Because of this, the Messiah came into the world. In Erie PA Scott

 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#69
That is perfectly illogical. You mean you do not listen to men of God? Of course you do. Every Scripture of the NT is from men. It also comes from God. It comes from men of God. And the NT comes from men you have never seen.


Ok, Yes, Scripture, which Paul states is "God breathed" and can be relied on as being from God (if we can not rely on scripture as being from God, what can we rely on?)

Perhaps you want to rephrase what you are saying. You do get your understanding from the NT and by the help of the HS (John 16:13). Every Christian relies on the NT and the power of the HS. And the NT comes from men we have never seen. Take care. Scott Erie PA


Yes, Because I trust that it is the word of God, Because God spent a few thousand years speaking through men putting together this word we call scripture to let us know everything he wants to know about him, his plan of salvation, our guilt and need of a savior, and our responsibility as children of God. Oh and future events.

How can this be compared to non scripture?? If God wanted us to know anything more than what he put in his word, he would not have closed the book, but kept adding to his word.

you want me to hold the words of men up to the same category of scripture? Sorry, the jews made this mistake. I will stick to scripture.



PS Of course, you mean you do not need any man to teach you, you can understand it all all by yourself? Well, good luck!
Nice try, This is not what I said! I said we should not hold men up as scripture, but test what they say to see if they are from God.

Yes men can teach me, and have, But I test what they say and make sure it lines up with the word of God. I can also take what I believe to others and see what they think, and we can test together to see if it lines up with Gods word.

The common denominator here is scripture. If it can not be proved by scripture it should not even be considered to be from God.



You will make a lot of mistakes if you don't get in touch with history.
Thats what the jews thought Also. There mistake was they put history ahead of the word.Put historical writings and books of their fathers equal with scripture which was proven to be a HUGE mistake, as Christ mocked them by breaking these man made laws and traditions. These same men crucified Christ; Forgive me if I refuse to make the same mistake
You should test what you believe by what others believe. You should test what others believe by what you believe. Is there is a difference, it needs to be resolved by prayer and fasting if necessary, and by common consent of all Christians.
As I said, I do this. But the "majority" does not rule, In fact history shows the "majority" have been wrong almost 100 % of the time.

Look at the NT, If, Paul started the church in Corinth, (he was there for 18 months) He told them who he was, The Gospel. taught the word of God. everything. If the majority would have kept Pauls teachings Pul would not have had to write 2 books to them trying to correct them.

There needs to be unity of doctrine and practice among Christians (John 17). But you can't be logical if you think the early Christians have nothing to teach us; we can just pick up the book, the Bible, and read it without any preconceptions. If our preconceptions our wrong, our interpretations of certain verses will turn out wrong. As it is, I was corrected today by Cleante, who showed me that my understanding of sin was defective. All sin is sin; it's not right-minded to try and categorize sins as lesser, or better, or worse. All sin is bad. No real distinction such as mortal or venial. Take care.
Actually it is preconceived notions which has caused many to misinterpret scripture. Because when they read it, they read it with their preconceived notions and not with an open heart. It hard to for someone to admit they are wrong, or have been taught wrong by those they trusted (I know I went though this when i opened my heart)

So cleante showed you this? That is funny, I showed you this twice. I guess my words did not mean a thing. Why? Because I do not come from your background so your preconceived notion is that I am wrong?


The problem with this is that we can be false and make a mistake in judging who is from God and who is not. We can get it wrong, and still we think that it's alright. Anyone can err. Take care. In Erie PA Scott
Anyone but the so called early church fathers you place your faith in?

Your right anyone can err. But when I stand in front of Christ on judgment day, I will not be judged by who I listened to, or what Church I went to. I will be judged by what I believed God to say. If I get it wrong, it is on me, If I chose to listen to people who got it wrong, it is still on me because I did not test.

You know. The roman catholic church makes this same argument. I have found that if our truth is in line with what God says, we do not need to use this excuse. We do not have to defend our church or our beliefs, because our faith is secure.

Paul would not have commanded us to do this if it was a waste of time. If this was not important, God would not have told us to do this.



All this is true; it doesn't solve the issue of which tradition correctly interprets the NT holy Scriptures (along with the OT). Which church is correctly understanding the Bible?
In Erie Scott


Yeah your right. But it can cause us to question a church who teaches doctrines which are not proven by scripture. especially when they take on verse out of the whole scripture on which to base their belief in, and the only other things they have to back what they say is outside of scripture sources. (see the jews)

Jesus said to John, "John, behold thy mother." So if Mary is the mother of John, and John is the church and is in the church, then all who are in the church also have Mary as their mother. She is a woman for all Christians. She prays for all. Her protection is a grace of the All-Holy Spirit. She brings Christ to us by her prayer. She said yes to the Father, and thus Christ was born. So we should be thankful and bless Mary that she obeyed God. Because of this, the Messiah came into the world. In Erie PA Scott
Another aspect of good hermenutics is to look at the historical perspective. If I was dieing, and I gave my best friend charge of taking care of my mother, I would say the same thing Jesus said. To take this to mean anything else is to not know culture of this time. and again would cause one to question the church who takes things out of context to prove a doctrine the so hold to.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#70
whoa bro what are ya getting to now? Jesus is 100% God and man,,,not just flesh
So then you have no issue with calling Mary the Mother of God right? After all, she wasn't just the mother of His flesh because you cannot separate the flesh from the divine. Mary is the mother of Jesus. And Jesus is God. So Mary is the mother of God. To deny her the title is to deny Christ His divinity.
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#71
every knee shall bow and declare Jesus is Lord, not Jesus and Mary, just Jesus:)
 
L

Loloy

Guest
#72
So then you have no issue with calling Mary the Mother of God right? After all, she wasn't just the mother of His flesh because you cannot separate the flesh from the divine. Mary is the mother of Jesus. And Jesus is God. So Mary is the mother of God. To deny her the title is to deny Christ His divinity.
Jesus is uncreated One, He existed long before Mary existed; HE is the Alpha and Omega. Now Mary has no right to have the title of being the MOTHER OF GOD since she did not give birth to Jesus Divinity.

Mary is not even Divine - she is not omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent. She is pure human. He even forgot Jesus and left at the temple - her mind is limited. Now can somebody give at least a hint that she is divine - does she have a divine attributes?
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#73
Jesus is uncreated One, He existed long before Mary existed; HE is the Alpha and Omega. Now Mary has no right to have the title of being the MOTHER OF GOD since she did not give birth to Jesus Divinity.

Mary is not even Divine - she is not omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent. She is pure human. He even forgot Jesus and left at the temple - her mind is limited. Now can somebody give at least a hint that she is divine - does she have a divine attributes?
No one is implying she's divine. To do so would be a heresy. A heresy that is condemned forcefully by both the Catholics and the Orthodox.

However, another early heresy said that Jesus wasn't God, that He was merely a creature. They then proceeded to call Mary, Christokos, Christ bearer; implying of course that Jesus wasn't Lord. In response, the Church (aka, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth according to Scripture) said no. Mary is the Theotokos, the Mother of God. Because of who her son is. You cannot say that someone is merely the mother of a fleshly side. Motherhood involves a relationship. She nursed the baby Jesus, changed His diapers, watched Him as He took His first steps as a man, etc. No other woman throughout history ever had, or ever will have this same kind of relationship with Jesus.

Naturally this doesn't imply that Mary predates Jesus. Or even has any divinity of her own. ANY grace she has comes through Jesus. But she is His mother. Motherhood is a relationship and only Mary was given this grace and unique relationship with Our Lord. To deny her this title is the same as denying that Jesus is Lord.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#74
No one is implying she's divine. To do so would be a heresy. A heresy that is condemned forcefully by both the Catholics and the Orthodox.

However, another early heresy said that Jesus wasn't God, that He was merely a creature. They then proceeded to call Mary, Christokos, Christ bearer; implying of course that Jesus wasn't Lord. In response, the Church (aka, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth according to Scripture) said no. Mary is the Theotokos, the Mother of God. Because of who her son is. You cannot say that someone is merely the mother of a fleshly side. Motherhood involves a relationship. She nursed the baby Jesus, changed His diapers, watched Him as He took His first steps as a man, etc. No other woman throughout history ever had, or ever will have this same kind of relationship with Jesus.

Naturally this doesn't imply that Mary predates Jesus. Or even has any divinity of her own. ANY grace she has comes through Jesus. But she is His mother. Motherhood is a relationship and only Mary was given this grace and unique relationship with Our Lord. To deny her this title is the same as denying that Jesus is Lord.
What we see here is the problem man has with adding to the word of God in order to fight off, or protect themselves, freom what they consider heretical teachings, or breaking the laws of God

The Jews made this same mistake when they returned to Jerusalem after being prisoners of war of the Babylonian empire. They were afraid of doing the same things they did which caused God to use this gentile nation to overthrow them, destroy their temple, and remove them from their land. So they made another book of laws. (I can't remember the name of it). This book had things such as on the Sabbath, which according to God's law, prohibited tilling the land. So the jews added in their law that they were not even allowed to move a chair across the room, for this would produce a set of grooves on the floor (which was dirt) which would be like tilling. Of course these were the laws Jesus broke while on earth. And they jews, thinking these laws were from God, and not made up laws. Stated Jesus broke Gods law, thus he could not be from God because he was a sinner.

Here we see the church (if you are right) making the same mistake. They are trying to fight what they considered a heresy (Jesus mere man and not "son of God") by adding to the word of God this "Immaculate conception, sinless Mary, mother of God" doctrine in order to fight a heresy instead allowing the truth of God to speak for itself.

Of course as I showed in another thread. The laws of heresy such as not following these doctrines were made crimes of the state and church, the penalties imposed were so harsh no one would "openly" speak or admit to a belief against this "mother of God" doctrine because their lives would have been over. All documents which would have shown that anyone believed different were said to be destroyed. So what do we have? People who look at history and say the belief which denies the sinless perfection and holding up of Mary did not start until the reformation (Which only came about because the power of the church and state which held what they called heresies, had lost its ability to keep these heretics under ground.
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#75


Ok, Yes, Scripture, which Paul states is "God breathed" and can be relied on as being from God (if we can not rely on scripture as being from God, what can we rely on?)



Yes, Because I trust that it is the word of God, Because God spent a few thousand years speaking through men putting together this word we call scripture to let us know everything he wants to know about him, his plan of salvation, our guilt and need of a savior, and our responsibility as children of God. Oh and future events.

How can this be compared to non scripture?? If God wanted us to know anything more than what he put in his word, he would not have closed the book, but kept adding to his word.

you want me to hold the words of men up to the same category of scripture? Sorry, the jews made this mistake. I will stick to scripture.





Nice try, This is not what I said! I said we should not hold men up as scripture, but test what they say to see if they are from God.

Yes men can teach me, and have, But I test what they say and make sure it lines up with the word of God. I can also take what I believe to others and see what they think, and we can test together to see if it lines up with Gods word.

The common denominator here is scripture. If it can not be proved by scripture it should not even be considered to be from God.





Thats what the jews thought Also. There mistake was they put history ahead of the word.Put historical writings and books of their fathers equal with scripture which was proven to be a HUGE mistake, as Christ mocked them by breaking these man made laws and traditions. These same men crucified Christ; Forgive me if I refuse to make the same mistake


As I said, I do this. But the "majority" does not rule, In fact history shows the "majority" have been wrong almost 100 % of the time.

Look at the NT, If, Paul started the church in Corinth, (he was there for 18 months) He told them who he was, The Gospel. taught the word of God. everything. If the majority would have kept Pauls teachings Pul would not have had to write 2 books to them trying to correct them.



Actually it is preconceived notions which has caused many to misinterpret scripture. Because when they read it, they read it with their preconceived notions and not with an open heart. It hard to for someone to admit they are wrong, or have been taught wrong by those they trusted (I know I went though this when i opened my heart)

Dear eternally grateful,
Those who follow after the spirit of the reformers ("reformers") like Martin Luther follow the traditions and customs of men.
Those who follow "the Bible alone" method get their doctrine of "by the Bible alone" from people like Martin Luther and others who followed after him, after Luther. But Luther ADDED to the Bible, and said "alone" in Romans 3:28. And thus Romans 3:28 contradicts James 2:24 in Luther's "German Bible". And so, Luther wanted to DELETE FROM the Bible the book of James. GO FIGURE. If you follow after the doctrine of "everything I get, I get from the Bible alone", you follow the spirit of a man, Martin Luther, and not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, who, through blessed Saint Paul, teaches that not everything true is in the Bible alone, but in the spoken words of the Apostles (2 THESSALONIANS 2:15). In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington



So cleante showed you this? That is funny, I showed you this twice. I guess my words did not mean a thing. Why? Because I do not come from your background so your preconceived notion is that I am wrong?




Anyone but the so called early church fathers you place your faith in?

Your right anyone can err. But when I stand in front of Christ on judgment day, I will not be judged by who I listened to, or what Church I went to. I will be judged by what I believed God to say. If I get it wrong, it is on me, If I chose to listen to people who got it wrong, it is still on me because I did not test.

You know. The roman catholic church makes this same argument. I have found that if our truth is in line with what God says, we do not need to use this excuse. We do not have to defend our church or our beliefs, because our faith is secure.

Paul would not have commanded us to do this if it was a waste of time. If this was not important, God would not have told us to do this.





Yeah your right. But it can cause us to question a church who teaches doctrines which are not proven by scripture. especially when they take on verse out of the whole scripture on which to base their belief in, and the only other things they have to back what they say is outside of scripture sources. (see the jews)



Another aspect of good hermenutics is to look at the historical perspective. If I was dieing, and I gave my best friend charge of taking care of my mother, I would say the same thing Jesus said. To take this to mean anything else is to not know culture of this time. and again would cause one to question the church who takes things out of context to prove a doctrine the so hold to.
 
Feb 9, 2010
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#76
Mary cannot be the mother of God for God cannot be born,and it was the Holy Spirit who caused the conception,and God gets the glory for Jesus being born.

Mary carried the human child,but God caused the conception,and Mary called Jesus her savior.

Mary was not conceived by immaculate conception by the Holy Spirit,so Jesus can be sinless,because to use that logic would mean that Mary's grandmother would have to have immaculate conception,so Mary could have immaculate conception,so Jesus could be born sinless,and you would have to back up all the way to Eve being immaculate conception.

It is also denying the power of the Holy Spirit to be able to cause Jesus to be sinless without Mary being immaculate conception,and if Mary can be immaculate conception without her mother being immaculate conception,then it can start with Jesus.

The Bible says if you are led of the Spirit you cannot sin,and we are born sinners not immaculate conception,so Jesus can be sinless being conceived of the Holy Spirit without Mary being immaculate conception.

As far as Mary being special above the other saints,as some people say,the Bible says otherwise,and Jesus put her on the same level as any other saint.

When Jesus was speaking to a crowd a woman spoke up and said blessed is His mother,but Jesus rather blessed is he that hears the word of God and does it,which Jesus is saying anyone that hears the word of God and does is as blessed as Mary,and Mary is blessed because she obeyed God,and God gets the glory for the conception which led to the birth.

When Jesus was speaking to a crowd,His disciples said your mother and brethren are outside the crowd desiring to speak to you,and Jesus said who is my mother and brethren,anyone that does the will of God is my mother,and brethren,and sisters.
Jesus pointed at His disciples and said behold My mother and brethren,to make the point that Mary is not above any other saint.

Mary is the same any other saint.She had her labor(no pun intended),and we have out labor,but we are blessed because we obey God.
 
Feb 14, 2011
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#77
Remember. Mary was a sinner when she concieved, She was a sinner while she carried the Son, And she was a sinner until the day she died.

Her son redeemed her like he redeemed the rest of us. He was not only her son, but her savior.

She is to be blessed, Because of what she had to go through (a fornicator or adulterer, giving birth to a bastard son) which in her day women who did this were outcasts of society. Yet she did this for God. and is blessed because of it.

mary could have been sanctified by God until she gave birth,because Jesus was without sin. everything was created by the word; jesus the man also,the son of david; of the root of david. God could have just click his fingers and a man was created; do you agree? yes he could, but this is not what he wanted: he wanted a second adam; flesh and blood, he must be born of water and of blood; like all of us.feeling pain, sad,sorrow.he must be man; not half man half God? the difference is that he is born by the will of God,not man: in other words, God created a temple for himself,so he can speak through that man: everytime Jesus spoke; God was speaking through him.
God was using his mouth to speak:when jesus said before abraham was i am: who was speaking? God; Jesus said; what my father tells me that i say,i by my self can not do anything. the word of God is dwelling amongst men in the flesh. God speaking all the time: but this man has his own spirit also: he feels sad, he feels abused. sometimes he cried to his father; and he says; it is your will father not mine.we also; we pray to the father,and we say, your will father not mine: let god control our mouths; what comes out of it let it be holy: now back to jesus; he is a man with all Godly qualities in him,because god dwelleth in him,he is the temple of god; they crusified him,God is very pleased with him,so he gave him a new body,a body of spirit; and God give him all authority, and more; he commanded the angels to worship him; and all men.
he is given a new name ''THE WORD OF GOD,KING OF KINGS,LORD OF LORDS.
you see if jesus was god; what reward can one give god? nothing: because all belongs to God.
that man Jesus,cried to his father ''why did you leave me?'' and then,just before he died
he said, ''in your hands i commit MY SPIRIT. his own spirit. God resurected him; now this second adam is made spirit. the first adam was made flesh(he was the first man)
but the second adam(Jesus) was made spirit: he is the first man given a spirit body: the first fruit of he dead; the beginning of the creation of God: the rest will follow at the last day. first the mortal and then the immortal. Jesus is of the root of david,gloryfied,higher than the angels. he is the morning star(a symbol of brightness)
he never can be above God, because God gave to him all the powers, equal to him.
jesus is given the title by God in hebrews,1:9. when God says to him, ''thy throne o God''--:
we are now flesh; but later we also will be spirit. if we choose to belong to his family.
God made moses a God too,remeber? we all are commanded to worship Jesus, so Jesus is God, but he can never be the father. he will always be subject to God. all is from God. so; there is only one GOD, of whom all is.
GOD bless.

''wakeup''.

 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
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#78
What we see here is the problem man has with adding to the word of God in order to fight off, or protect themselves, freom what they consider heretical teachings, or breaking the laws of God

The Jews made this same mistake when they returned to Jerusalem after being prisoners of war of the Babylonian empire. They were afraid of doing the same things they did which caused God to use this gentile nation to overthrow them, destroy their temple, and remove them from their land. So they made another book of laws. (I can't remember the name of it). This book had things such as on the Sabbath, which according to God's law, prohibited tilling the land. So the jews added in their law that they were not even allowed to move a chair across the room, for this would produce a set of grooves on the floor (which was dirt) which would be like tilling. Of course these were the laws Jesus broke while on earth. And they jews, thinking these laws were from God, and not made up laws. Stated Jesus broke Gods law, thus he could not be from God because he was a sinner.

Here we see the church (if you are right) making the same mistake. They are trying to fight what they considered a heresy (Jesus mere man and not "son of God") by adding to the word of God this "Immaculate conception, sinless Mary, mother of God" doctrine in order to fight a heresy instead allowing the truth of God to speak for itself.

Of course as I showed in another thread. The laws of heresy such as not following these doctrines were made crimes of the state and church, the penalties imposed were so harsh no one would "openly" speak or admit to a belief against this "mother of God" doctrine because their lives would have been over. All documents which would have shown that anyone believed different were said to be destroyed. So what do we have? People who look at history and say the belief which denies the sinless perfection and holding up of Mary did not start until the reformation (Which only came about because the power of the church and state which held what they called heresies, had lost its ability to keep these heretics under ground.
Let me see if I understand your argument correctly. The proof that there were others who believed elsewhere is that there is no documentation supporting it because it was destroyed....

Let's repeat this idea. The proof you offer supporting your views is that because there is no supporting documentation for other views, it was all destroyed and thus, the documentation supporting the opposing viewpoint to yours is wrong! And yet you offer NO evidence that these documents supporting your viewpoint even exist. You simply claim that they were destroyed and that is thus your proof against our claims?

o_O
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#79
Mary cannot be the mother of God for God cannot be born,and it was the Holy Spirit who caused the conception,and God gets the glory for Jesus being born.

Mary carried the human child,but God caused the conception,and Mary called Jesus her savior.

Mary was not conceived by immaculate conception by the Holy Spirit,so Jesus can be sinless,because to use that logic would mean that Mary's grandmother would have to have immaculate conception,so Mary could have immaculate conception,so Jesus could be born sinless,and you would have to back up all the way to Eve being immaculate conception.

It is also denying the power of the Holy Spirit to be able to cause Jesus to be sinless without Mary being immaculate conception,and if Mary can be immaculate conception without her mother being immaculate conception,then it can start with Jesus.

The Bible says if you are led of the Spirit you cannot sin,and we are born sinners not immaculate conception,so Jesus can be sinless being conceived of the Holy Spirit without Mary being immaculate conception.

As far as Mary being special above the other saints,as some people say,the Bible says otherwise,and Jesus put her on the same level as any other saint.

When Jesus was speaking to a crowd a woman spoke up and said blessed is His mother,but Jesus rather blessed is he that hears the word of God and does it,which Jesus is saying anyone that hears the word of God and does is as blessed as Mary,and Mary is blessed because she obeyed God,and God gets the glory for the conception which led to the birth.

When Jesus was speaking to a crowd,His disciples said your mother and brethren are outside the crowd desiring to speak to you,and Jesus said who is my mother and brethren,anyone that does the will of God is my mother,and brethren,and sisters.
Jesus pointed at His disciples and said behold My mother and brethren,to make the point that Mary is not above any other saint.

Mary is the same any other saint.She had her labor(no pun intended),and we have out labor,but we are blessed because we obey God.
So... tell me, do you believe Jesus to be God? Or just a creature? And if you do believe Jesus to be God, then WHO, is Mary the mother of?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#80
So... tell me, do you believe Jesus to be God? Or just a creature? And if you do believe Jesus to be God, then WHO, is Mary the mother of?
Mary is the mother of the Human Body of Christ. Thus the human form of Christ. Christ however has no mother, he was before abraham, he created the universe. So how could mary be his mother?

Unless you believe Jesus never existed before his earthly birth. And thus was plain man, then Mary is the mother of no one.