Mary as the mother of God?

[Scotth1960]

Romans 3: 23 goes for the entire human race, including mary.[/b]

As far as her being a less sinner. This is the problem with mankind. We think we are "less" sinners, so we are more ok with God. God says if we break one command we are found guilty of the whole law.

Imagine if we will a place where there is a line at a specific point,. Everything above the line is bright and full of light. Everything below the line is darkness. This is how God sees us.

The line is the mark God set (the law) of which one can be right with him under our own merit. Anyone who does not meet that mark is below the line, Now what do we see? Darkness. Everyone below deserve eternal damnation. Everyone above deserves eternal fellowship with God. As we can see, there is only one who made it above the Line (Christ), Sorry Mary did not make it.

No one below the line can climb to the top and put themselves over the line, they are doomed, Because that which makes it dark to God is sin.

In other words, unless the blood of Christ washes the sin, no one below the line will make it. No matter who they are. there is not more guilty or less guilty, there is guilty. and ALL are guilty. (including Mary) and are in danger of hellfire unless they are taken out of the darkness, and moved into the light by Christ. Only he has the ability to do this.



No where in scripture is it said mary was sinless. Scripture states the opposite. "For ALL have sinned and fall short" (this can not include original sin, for we did not commit origional sin) Again ALL would include Mary.


Physical death is a natural part of sin. But this is not what happened to Adam and Eve the "moment" they sinned, as God promised. They did die, they dies spiritually (spiritual seperation from God, as their relationship was severed We are ALL born in this state of spiritual death, And will remain in this state unless all our sin is paid for by Christ. There is no such thing as "mortal vs Venial sin" God said the fact of eating a mere fruit was worthy of death. James makes it clear if one breaks even the least of the law, he is guilty of the whole law.

Since ALL sin brings forth the penalty of death. (Spiritual) all sin can be said to be mortal (although in a spiritual not physical sense.)

Animals have no soul, so can not be saved, so are not even a part of the equation.




No one is judging Mary, They are just stating facts concerning here. Romans 3: 23 makes it clear she committed sin. If she did not commit sin, Then she is equal to Christ. and fulfilled the law. Which is against the word of God. (not to mention she would not need Christ as a savior. and she could have paid for sin, there would have been no need of Christ to come.)

As for her bring a virgin. She was at birth. But to say she remained would be an offense to her, and her Husband Joseph. Whom scripture makes clear consummated the marriage after the birth of her firstborn son.



Where in the bible does it say "such and such was the sin of Luke, Or Timothy, Or many other of the early church leaders where no mention of personal sin were ever mentioned.

We know Mary sinned Because scripture states ALL HAVE SINNED. Unless the bible lied. And I have no reason to believe it did.[/b]

We know Mary is the first one saved by Christ her Son. It does no good to look for sin in others. Let us attend to ourselves, and look only at oneself. I have sinned greatly. So I can not speak against others. Mary was saved by Christ's blood. She is "full of grace" and "blessed among women". That should be enough for us. We shouldn't be casting stones at anyone, or deducing she's a sinner. She was saved, is the good thing. She "rejoiced in God" her Saviour, as she sings in her hymn of praise to God, The Magnificat. God be praised for the gift of His Son, Who saves by His precious blood, and has given us the gift of Mary as an intercessor and person who prays to Christ for us, and for our salvation in Christ. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We know Mary is the first one saved by Christ her Son. It does no good to look for sin in others. Let us attend to ourselves, and look only at oneself.

No one was saved until Christ said "it was finished" At that time the salvation of ALL OT saints was completed, as well as Mary's, As well as ours. Mary was NOT saved first.


I have sinned greatly. So I can not speak against others. Mary was saved by Christ's blood. She is "full of grace" and "blessed among women". That should be enough for us.

We are "full of Grace" and yes she is to be blessed, But I already explained why. Not because of what she did, but because of what she had to endure.

We shouldn't be casting stones at anyone, or deducing she's a sinner. She was saved, is the good thing. She "rejoiced in God" her Saviour, as she sings in her hymn of praise to God, The Magnificat. God be praised for the gift of His Son, Who saves by His precious blood,

Yes I agree

[/quote]and has given us the gift of Mary as an intercessor and person who prays to Christ for us, and for our salvation in Christ. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
[/quote]

Scripture states there is one mediator between God and man. Not many.

Mary is not omnipresent. She is unable to hear all prayers.

Mary is still a sinner saved by grace, awaiting her resurrection and glorified body. She is in Paradise with all who have come before and after her to the knowledge of Grace.

I am not here to argue if mary sinned or not, You brought that up.

I am here to show the false theology of Mary as intercessor and perfect gift of God to mankind. Christ was the gift. Not Mary. Mary is not the "queen of heaven" or "mother of God" which was a pagan practice and belief. She is a sinner saved by God's grace. who happened to be here at the right time and right place. And is blessed for the work she did. Just like Paul was here at the right time and place, and is blessed for all the work he did for Christ.

Just like you and I are here at this time and place. And have a work to do for God. so we hopefully can be blessed also

 

[Scotth1960]

No one was saved until Christ said "it was finished" At that time the salvation of ALL OT saints was completed, as well as Mary's, As well as ours. Mary was NOT saved first.


I have sinned greatly. So I can not speak against others. Mary was saved by Christ's blood. She is "full of grace" and "blessed among women". That should be enough for us.

We are "full of Grace" and yes she is to be blessed, But I already explained why. Not because of what she did, but because of what she had to endure.

[/b]

Yes I agree

and has given us the gift of Mary as an intercessor and person who prays to Christ for us, and for our salvation in Christ. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
[/quote]

Scripture states there is one mediator between God and man. Not many.

Mary is not omnipresent. She is unable to hear all prayers.

Mary is still a sinner saved by grace, awaiting her resurrection and glorified body. She is in Paradise with all who have come before and after her to the knowledge of Grace.

I am not here to argue if mary sinned or not, You brought that up.

I am here to show the false theology of Mary as intercessor and perfect gift of God to mankind. Christ was the gift. Not Mary. Mary is not the "queen of heaven" or "mother of God" which was a pagan practice and belief. She is a sinner saved by God's grace. who happened to be here at the right time and right place. And is blessed for the work she did. Just like Paul was here at the right time and place, and is blessed for all the work he did for Christ.

Just like you and I are here at this time and place. And have a work to do for God. so we hopefully can be blessed also
[/quote]
What do you do with the Book of Revelation, with the 24 elders praying before the throne of God? Are there no saints in heaven now, praying before the throne of God? Is not Mary in heaven now, praying for the Church? Is true Christianity "the communion of saints".
Or the "Communion of me alone with Jesus", the communion of "I don't need anyone else to pray to God for me". "All I need is Jesus and myself". Well, if all you need is Jesus and yourself, who will baptize you (cf. Matthew 28:19)? Who will give you communion?
To whom will your confess your sins. James says not only to confess sins to God, but to each other, and to pray for each other. Is James wrong? If all you need is Christ as your sole Mediator, and you don't need the intercession of any other Christian, where is that in the Bible? In Erie PA Scott H.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What do you do with the Book of Revelation, with the 24 elders praying before the throne of God?

Well lets see, They have robes of righteousness, and been given crowns (promised to all believers after the Resurrection, their trial through fire, and bema seat judgment.) So these are believers no longer in the grave (or paradise) but having been resurrected, judged and glorified, are praying for the souls of men on Earth during time of Graet Tribulation, such as the world has never seen, nor ever will again.

Are there no saints in heaven now, praying before the throne of God?

No one has been resurrected yet. Given their glorified bodies, Robes, or crowns, thus no one has the ability or right to sit at the throne of God. So NO

Is not Mary in heaven now, praying for the Church? Is true Christianity "the communion of saints".

Mary is in Paradise, with all other who have come before and after her awaiting their resurrection and judgment. So no she is not at Gods throne.

Or the "Communion of me alone with Jesus", the communion of "I don't need anyone else to pray to God for me". "All I need is Jesus and myself". Well, if all you need is Jesus and yourself,

I have people pray for me all the time, People who know me, who know what I need, I also pray for others all the time. We also, as a church group pray for our leaders, our church, the people we are working with, and those God has not brought to us yet. We pray for God to bring people to us. To use us in the world.

I do not know where you get this "me alone" stuff. Since when is the church a "me alone" community?

And again, Unless these "saints" are God, They have no clue who you are, never seen you, and can not read your mind to know what you need to properly pray for you. would you not want your brother to pray for you? Maybe your church does not pray, and you need "gods" in heaven praying for you?

who will baptize you (cf. Matthew 28:19)?

Well God (HS) baptized me for salvation. And my pastor baptized me as I gave testimony of my repentance and choosing to trust Christ

Who will give you communion?

Well we give communion to each other, as we break bread and eat meat with each other (as they did in the NT),

To whom will your confess your sins.

I have personal disciplers (Cell group) who I confess (admit) my sins to who personally take the time to help me over come these sin issues, And I disciple them as well as they confesses there sins to me, As Scripture told us to (confess your sins to one another) This way our sin is not hidden behind closed doors, and is out in the open so we can be held accountable and be healed.

James says not only to confess sins to God, but to each other, and to pray for each other. Is James wrong?

Read above, No James is not wrong. He just did not mean it as you think he means it

If all you need is Christ as your sole Mediator, and you don't need the intercession of any other Christian, where is that in the Bible? In Erie PA Scott H.

Well Only Christ can mediate for me when it comes to my salvation. No one else can, or has the ability to.

Praying for others and each other, and holding each other accountable for sin and helping each other overcome these sins. That is a different subject.

Again, You should study Pagan ritual and culture, For you will see they believe pretty much the same things you believe, although use different terminology.

 

[dscherck]

Even then, she only became the mother through the law... No blood connections... She's only a guardian of Jesus... Not the real mother...

Jesus is not pro-created by Mary - she has no contribution in conceiving Jesus since the Holy Spirit conceived Him. Mary only become the host of carrying Jesus in her womb.


Jesus has no origin... the Alpha and Omega...

So, despite the fact that He was created in Her womb, formed from her flesh, in your view He was merely a divine parasite of some kind? Wow, that makes even less sense than saying she wasn't His mother.

 

[dscherck]

wait what? have you not read what was written, God created the heaven and the earth....there was no Mary before the Lord. He is Spirit and we must worship in Spirit. He was the self existing the non created the most high God....nothing was before the Lord....but the flesh gave life for the Lord to be here....take care bro

So, now you're denying the incarnation? Yes, He was Spirit, but He was/is also flesh. And that flesh came from His mother.

 

[Scotth1960]

Well lets see, They have robes of righteousness, and been given crowns (promised to all believers after the Resurrection, their trial through fire, and bema seat judgment.) So these are believers no longer in the grave (or paradise) but having been resurrected, judged and glorified, are praying for the souls of men on Earth during time of Graet Tribulation, such as the world has never seen, nor ever will again.



[/b]

No one has been resurrected yet. Given their glorified bodies, Robes, or crowns, thus no one has the ability or right to sit at the throne of God. So NO




Mary is in Paradise, with all other who have come before and after her awaiting their resurrection and judgment. So no she is not at Gods throne.


I have people pray for me all the time, People who know me, who know what I need, I also pray for others all the time. We also, as a church group pray for our leaders, our church, the people we are working with, and those God has not brought to us yet. We pray for God to bring people to us. To use us in the world.

I do not know where you get this "me alone" stuff. Since when is the church a "me alone" community?

And again, Unless these "saints" are God, They have no clue who you are, never seen you, and can not read your mind to know what you need to properly pray for you. would you not want your brother to pray for you? Maybe your church does not pray, and you need "gods" in heaven praying for you?

Well God (HS) baptized me for salvation. And my pastor baptized me as I gave testimony of my repentance and choosing to trust Christ


Well we give communion to each other, as we break bread and eat meat with each other (as they did in the NT),




I have personal disciplers (Cell group) who I confess (admit) my sins to who personally take the time to help me over come these sin issues, And I disciple them as well as they confesses there sins to me, As Scripture told us to (confess your sins to one another) This way our sin is not hidden behind closed doors, and is out in the open so we can be held accountable and be healed.



Read above, No James is not wrong. He just did not mean it as you think he means it



Well Only Christ can mediate for me when it comes to my salvation. No one else can, or has the ability to.

Praying for others and each other, and holding each other accountable for sin and helping each other overcome these sins. That is a different subject.

Again, You should study Pagan ritual and culture, For you will see they believe pretty much the same things you believe, although use different terminology.

What you fail to understand, you slander and heap up ad hominem language by calling me to study pagan ritual. No thank you. Orthodoxy is not pagan. It is Christian.
Before I learned of Orthodoxy, I committed many sins. So, it was not Orthodoxy that failed me. It was me who failed to be a "mere Christian", and that is all I seek in coming into Orthodoxy. To repent of my sins and be baptized. Eventually. I need to get to church as soon as I can. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS We are mostly in agreement on some things. But God isn't just "one person".
That fuses the Father and Spirit into the Son, and depersonalizes both, to the denigration of them both, and to making them unequal with Jesus Christ.

 

[Ramon]

If Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. The term protects the Divinity of Christ. She did not cause His Divinity. But His Divinity is united to His humanity in His conception, so she brought God the Son into the world. She did not cause Him to exist; she merely is the vessel the Father used to bring for His Son, God manifest in the flesh through the body of the Virgin Mary. Take care.
Scott . Erie

Mary is not the mother of God. You are thinking fleshly my friend.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What you fail to understand, you slander and heap up ad hominem language by calling me to study pagan ritual. No thank you. Orthodoxy is not pagan. It is Christian.

I was not heaping anything, I was giving you a suggestion to check it for yourself. And see if you see the same thing you are telling me about Mary was not practiced by them.
Many people call themselves Christian, Does not make it so.

Before I learned of Orthodoxy, I committed many sins. So, it was not Orthodoxy that failed me. It was me who failed to be a "mere Christian", and that is all I seek in coming into Orthodoxy. To repent of my sins and be baptized. Eventually. I need to get to church as soon as I can. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

I never claimed orthodoxy or romanism failed you. I hope you did not think that. We all were sinners before we came to God. If it were not for God and his grace we would have no hope.

PS We are mostly in agreement on some things. But God isn't just "one person".
That fuses the Father and Spirit into the Son, and depersonalizes both, to the denigration of them both, and to making them unequal with Jesus Christ.

pps, I do not believe this either. I believe in a triune God. But thanks

 

[aussigirl]

Remember. Mary was a sinner when she conceived, She was a sinner while she carried the Son, And she was a sinner until the day she died.

Her son redeemed her like he redeemed the rest of us. He was not only her son, but her savior.

She is to be blessed, Because of what she had to go through (a fornicator or adulterer, giving birth to a bastard son) which in her day women who did this were outcasts of society. Yet she did this for God. and is blessed because of it.

This is incorrect. Mary never sinned. She was, from the very first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by God, preserved from all stain of original sin. She was conceived immaculately.

Now, obviously God has the power to do this. Christ would not be born of a woman who was tainted with the stain of sin, especially when He had the power to make her as perfect as He want her to be. He was still her savior in the sense that He pre-exempted her from original sin at the instant of her conception. Mary was created in a sinless state with the fullness of grace, and this fullness of grace remained with her all her life.

“And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee, called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came to her saying: “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.'” (Luke 1: 26 - 28)

Mary was created full of grace and free from sin just as Adam & Eve were created full of grace, and free from sin. The only difference between the two is that Adam and Eve, our first parents, chose to sin, and Mary did not.
Also, in a somewhat similar, but different, fashion, the prophet Jeremiah, although being conceived with original sin, was sanctified (baptized if you wish) by God while still in the womb of his mother, and born full of grace.

“Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou came forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jeremiah 1: 5)

Also, the prophet, John the Baptist, was sanctified in his mother’s womb in a similar fashion and born free from sin and full of grace. See: John 1: 41 – 42.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is incorrect. Mary never sinned. She was, from the very first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by God, preserved from all stain of original sin. She was conceived immaculately.

Then Paul is a liar when he said ALL have sinned. For if Mary did not sin, Then ALL have not sinned. If mary was born without sin, she would not have need a savior. So mary is also a liar. For she called her Son her savior.

Now, obviously God has the power to do this. Christ would not be born of a woman who was tainted with the stain of sin,

why not? Mary gave him his physical body, Not his soul. The soul was Christs and did not enter the body until it was out of mary's womb (the moment God breaths life into all babies) so what reason would Mary have to be sinless.

second, Can you show scripture?

especially when He had the power to make her as perfect as He want her to be. He was still her savior in the sense that He pre-exempted her from original sin at the instant of her conception. Mary was created in a sinless state with the fullness of grace, and this fullness of grace remained with her all her life.

Then she had no need of a savior. For she would have fulfilled the requirement of the law, and been saved of her own righteousness. (having never sinned she would have never been condemned)

Your right Jesus did have the power to save her, Thats why he went to the cross

“And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee, called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came to her saying: “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.'” (Luke 1: 26 - 28)

Mary was full of grace. She did not deserve to give birth to the savior. If she is sinless. Grace would never have been applied to her, for she would have deserved to give birth to Christ.

Mary was created full of grace and free from sin just as Adam & Eve were created full of grace, and free from sin.

Grace = unmerited (undeserved) favor. It is a favor given to someone who does not deserve it. Adam and Eve were not full of grace, they did not need grace. They were perfect. free of sin, able to relate to God on their own good deeds. It was not until sin entered their souls that Grace came into the picture. for it was not until then that they had to relate to God through Gods grace.

How can one recieve something that is undeserved if they deserve it??

The only difference between the two is that Adam and Eve, our first parents, chose to sin, and Mary did not.

And this is found where in scripture?

Also, in a somewhat similar, but different, fashion, the prophet Jeremiah, although being conceived with original sin, was sanctified (baptized if you wish) by God while still in the womb of his mother, and born full of grace.

“Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou came forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jeremiah 1: 5)

Also, the prophet, John the Baptist, was sanctified in his mother’s womb in a similar fashion and born free from sin and full of grace. See: John 1: 41 – 42.
[/quote]

Wow So jeriemiah and john the baptist were sinless also? Wow. So we have four people who never needed grace and made it to heaven of their own merit. Why could God have not done this for everyone?

Oh wait I know. "For ALL HAVE SINNED and FALL SHORT

I guess scripture is clear that ALL are under sin (including the four you mentioned) and are in need of grace, for no one deserves salvation

 

[dscherck]

Mary is not the mother of God. You are thinking fleshly my friend.

So you're denying that Jesus is Lord?

 

[dscherck]

[/size][/b]Then Paul is a liar when he said ALL have sinned. For if Mary did not sin, Then ALL have not sinned. If mary was born without sin, she would not have need a savior. So mary is also a liar. For she called her Son her savior.

So then by your logic, Christ is a sinner too?

why not? Mary gave him his physical body, Not his soul. The soul was Christs and did not enter the body until it was out of mary's womb (the moment God breaths life into all babies) so what reason would Mary have to be sinless.

So.... I guess when the Scriptures record John the Baptist leaping for joy in Elizabeth's womb that's inaccurate because his soul wasn't there?

second, Can you show scripture?

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Then she had no need of a savior. For she would have fulfilled the requirement of the law, and been saved of her own righteousness. (having never sinned she would have never been condemned)

She was saved in a unique way as befitting her role in salvation history as the ark of the New Covenant (aka, Jesus)

Your right Jesus did have the power to save her, Thats why he went to the cross

Mary was full of grace. She did not deserve to give birth to the savior. If she is sinless. Grace would never have been applied to her, for she would have deserved to give birth to Christ.

Or, as the pillar and foundation of Truth has pointed out, she could have received her grace in a unique way prior to her conception. And this view of course is attested to by the angel Gabriel in his addressing her as "full of grace" (which in the Greek original text is shown to use a verb tense strongly implying a pre-exisiting grace that always has and always will be existent)

Mary was created full of grace and free from sin just as Adam & Eve were created full of grace, and free from sin.

Grace = unmerited (undeserved) favor. It is a favor given to someone who does not deserve it. Adam and Eve were not full of grace, they did not need grace. They were perfect. free of sin, able to relate to God on their own good deeds. It was not until sin entered their souls that Grace came into the picture. for it was not until then that they had to relate to God through Gods grace.

Exactly. And Mary was a unique recipient of grace in that her grace was given to her prior to her conception and she was saved from sin even before it could attach itself to her.

How can one recieve something that is undeserved if they deserve it??

And this is found where in scripture?

Again, Luke 1:28.

Wow So jeriemiah and john the baptist were sinless also? Wow. So we have four people who never needed grace and made it to heaven of their own merit. Why could God have not done this for everyone?

He could have, He's God. But while Jeremiah and John were given grace while still in their mother's wombs, they were conceived in iniquity like all men.

Oh wait I know. "For ALL HAVE SINNED and FALL SHORT

I guess scripture is clear that ALL are under sin (including the four you mentioned) and are in need of grace, for no one deserves salvation

You keep quoting that verse but I fear it doesn't mean what you think it does.
And why do I keep thinking of the Princess bride?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So then by your logic, Christ is a sinner too?

Do what? How can what I said make "jesus" to be a sinner. can you explain?

So.... I guess when the Scriptures record John the Baptist leaping for joy in Elizabeth's womb that's inaccurate because his soul wasn't there?

Scripture states the HS was in John the baptists womb. Would it not be the HS in him who "jumped" (since the HS is God and would know who was in Marys womb, and this was a sign given by God to help Mary understand what she had in her womb?

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Kecharitomene" is not found in John 1: 14, the words used are "Plaris" -(complete or filled) "charitos' - (Grace) and "alethios" - Truth. Jesus was sent into the world to give mankind grace and truth, he brought it with him, He did not just have a part of grace and truth, he was complete with it. to offger it to those who receive him. As I said, Jesus did not NEED Grace, What he did was come to "GIVE" Grace.

Mary was not sent to give grace. She was shown that she was "highly favored" by God in the fact she will give birth to the son of man. The engel made it clear in vs 30 "you have found favor" and then explains why. She will carry and give birth to the son of David. There is no need in context to think that the angel was saying she was sinless by saying this word. She is "highly favored" because she was going to give birth. not "so she can" give birth. Context does not fit the catholic view of the word.

She was saved in a unique way as befitting her role in salvation history as the ark of the New Covenant (aka, Jesus)

WHAT?? She is not the ark of the new covenant. The ark was the presence of God, If taken with them, God was with them, The ark was in the holy of holys, and was considered the judgment seat. The ark represented Gods presence with mankind. The high priest sprinkled blood ON THE ARK on the day of atonement (lev16) for the forgiveness of the sin of the people. Christ did not spread his blood on Mary. His blood is spread on us, so we are shown mercy (the mercy seat of the ark) and our sin is forgiven.

God was not inside the ark. He hovered OVER it. Christ was not in side the ark. HIS BLOOD was spread on TOP OF IT.,

Or, as the pillar and foundation of Truth has pointed out, she could have received her grace in a unique way prior to her conception. And this view of course is attested to by the angel Gabriel in his addressing her as "full of grace" (which in the Greek original text is shown to use a verb tense strongly implying a pre-exisiting grace that always has and always will be existent)

Or, as in accordance with logic, She was chosen before she was even born to carry the body of our savior. Again, Nothing in context could ever be used to show mary was sinless because of this grace. Second, if she was sinless. SHE WOULD NOT NEED GRACE. for she would have EARNED the right to carry Christ, and it would not have been a gift. but a reward for her righteousness.

Exactly. And Mary was a unique recipient of grace in that her grace was given to her prior to her conception and she was saved from sin even before it could attach itself to her.

Yet if Mary was sinless. She would not need grace, she would have earned her salvation. Grace is given to those in need, but do not deserve, not to those who deserve.

He could have, He's God. But while Jeremiah and John were given grace while still in their mother's wombs, they were conceived in iniquity like all men.

ok you just contradicted yourself. what grace were they given if they were still born in sin? what made them born of sin??

You keep quoting that verse but I fear it doesn't mean what you think it does.
And why do I keep thinking of the Princess bride?

Paul makes it clear, there are NONE righteous, no not one. That ALL have sinned and fall short of Gods glory, being justified (saved) freely by the grace of God. If mary was saved, she is a part of the "ALL" ALl one has to do is tr4anslate it literally as it was written.

 

[Scotth1960]

No one was saved until Christ said "it was finished" At that time the salvation of ALL OT saints was completed, as well as Mary's, As well as ours. Mary was NOT saved first.


I have sinned greatly. So I can not speak against others. Mary was saved by Christ's blood. She is "full of grace" and "blessed among women". That should be enough for us.

We are "full of Grace" and yes she is to be blessed, But I already explained why. Not because of what she did, but because of what she had to endure.

[/b]

Yes I agree

and has given us the gift of Mary as an intercessor and person who prays to Christ for us, and for our salvation in Christ. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
[/quote]

Scripture states there is one mediator between God and man. Not many.

Mary is not omnipresent. She is unable to hear all prayers.

Mary is still a sinner saved by grace, awaiting her resurrection and glorified body. She is in Paradise with all who have come before and after her to the knowledge of Grace.

I am not here to argue if mary sinned or not, You brought that up.

I am here to show the false theology of Mary as intercessor and perfect gift of God to mankind. Christ was the gift. Not Mary. Mary is not the "queen of heaven" or "mother of God" which was a pagan practice and belief. She is a sinner saved by God's grace. who happened to be here at the right time and right place. And is blessed for the work she did. Just like Paul was here at the right time and place, and is blessed for all the work he did for Christ.

Just like you and I are here at this time and place. And have a work to do for God. so we hopefully can be blessed also
[/quote]
If Mary cannot pray now for Christians on earth, then the book of James is also false, because it says for Christians to pray for one another. There is no Scripture that says that Christians who die and go to heaven no longer pray to God. That is a Protestant assumption, not a fact. What about the 24 elders of Revelation? Are we to assume we are all alone? Even Protestants ask other Protestants to intercede and pray for them. Why do they do that, if they believe there is only one Mediator? Also, if one takes that to the extreme, one would not pray oneself, for one would have Christ alone to pray for oneself, and wouldn't need to pray to God. See how ridiculous the one Mediator misinterpretation can get. It means Christ alone is the Savior, and our prayers are going to be answered by Christ alone. Christ alone can save and decide about the prayers of people. Christ mediates with the Father, and brings salvation to those who believe repent confess sins and trust in Him and in His shed blood of the Cross. But we still need intercessors to pray for us, and we still need to intercede and pray for each other. God bless you all! In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

Do what? How can what I said make "jesus" to be a sinner. can you explain?




Scripture states the HS was in John the baptists womb. Would it not be the HS in him who "jumped" (since the HS is God and would know who was in Marys womb, and this was a sign given by God to help Mary understand what she had in her womb?



Kecharitomene" is not found in John 1: 14, the words used are "Plaris" -(complete or filled) "charitos' - (Grace) and "alethios" - Truth. Jesus was sent into the world to give mankind grace and truth, he brought it with him, He did not just have a part of grace and truth, he was complete with it. to offger it to those who receive him. As I said, Jesus did not NEED Grace, What he did was come to "GIVE" Grace.

Mary was not sent to give grace. She was shown that she was "highly favored" by God in the fact she will give birth to the son of man. The engel made it clear in vs 30 "you have found favor" and then explains why. She will carry and give birth to the son of David. There is no need in context to think that the angel was saying she was sinless by saying this word. She is "highly favored" because she was going to give birth. not "so she can" give birth. Context does not fit the catholic view of the word.



WHAT?? She is not the ark of the new covenant. The ark was the presence of God, If taken with them, God was with them, The ark was in the holy of holys, and was considered the judgment seat. The ark represented Gods presence with mankind. The high priest sprinkled blood ON THE ARK on the day of atonement (lev16) for the forgiveness of the sin of the people. Christ did not spread his blood on Mary. His blood is spread on us, so we are shown mercy (the mercy seat of the ark) and our sin is forgiven.

God was not inside the ark. He hovered OVER it. Christ was not in side the ark. HIS BLOOD was spread on TOP OF IT.,



Or, as in accordance with logic, She was chosen before she was even born to carry the body of our savior. Again, Nothing in context could ever be used to show mary was sinless because of this grace. Second, if she was sinless. SHE WOULD NOT NEED GRACE. for she would have EARNED the right to carry Christ, and it would not have been a gift. but a reward for her righteousness.


Yet if Mary was sinless. She would not need grace, she would have earned her salvation. Grace is given to those in need, but do not deserve, not to those who deserve.




ok you just contradicted yourself. what grace were they given if they were still born in sin? what made them born of sin??



Paul makes it clear, there are NONE righteous, no not one. That ALL have sinned and fall short of Gods glory, being justified (saved) freely by the grace of God. If mary was saved, she is a part of the "ALL" ALl one has to do is tr4anslate it literally as it was written.

I did not say Mary did not sin. I merely state she is "full of grace", and her sin was forgiven by her Son. She may have committed no sin according to Romans 5:14. It's a mystery what this verse means. It indicates some may not have sinned. It doesn't mean they have no sin. For the Bible says, "All have sinned", so that would include the Virgin Mary. But maybe the sin was not after the likeness of the transgression of Adam. Whatever else that means, it is sure that death comes to all, whether they sin or not, according to Romans 5:14. But certainly Mary's sins could have been venial, and not mortal. Certainly, we should not rejoice if anyone sins. So we shouldn't be casting our thoughts to alleged sins of Mary. Just rejoice that Christ her Son saved her. And rejoice when Christ saves us. We need to find salvation in Christ. Christ has saved us by His blood. Let us now receive the (His) salvation in our lives personally, through the Church. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

I was not heaping anything, I was giving you a suggestion to check it for yourself. And see if you see the same thing you are telling me about Mary was not practiced by them.
Many people call themselves Christian, Does not make it so.
[/b]


I never claimed orthodoxy or romanism failed you. I hope you did not think that. We all were sinners before we came to God. If it were not for God and his grace we would have no hope.



pps, I do not believe this either. I believe in a triune God. But thanks

Dear eternally grateful, I was not talking about what you believe. I was responding to pneumapsuchesoma, Who contradicts himself; one time, he says God is one person. Another time, he says, God is not one person. Certainly he says Christ is one person. But if God is not one person, and Christ is one person, then, by his logic, Christ is not God!
Take care. In Erie PA Scott

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I did not say Mary did not sin. I merely state she is "full of grace", and her sin was forgiven by her Son.

Well since Christ had not died yet. No ones sins could have been forgiven. Even OT saints did not have complete forgiveness until Christ's death, proven by the fact Christ went to paradise after his death, and took paradise to heaven with him. Haven paid the debt in full..

Yes her sin was forgiven, when she recieved her son as her savior. not before she was born.

She may have committed no sin according to Romans 5:14. It's a mystery what this verse means. It indicates some may not have sinned. It doesn't mean they have no sin.

Its a mystery? To who? What happened when moses came? The law was given. There was no law before moses. Paul is saying all before moses sinned, even though there was no law to show them they sinned. They were just as guilty as those who sinned after the law said "you shall not covet" It does not mean these people did not sin.

For the Bible says, "All have sinned", so that would include the Virgin Mary. But maybe the sin was not after the likeness of the transgression of Adam. Whatever else that means, it is sure that death comes to all, whether they sin or not, according to Romans 5:14. But certainly Mary's sins could have been venial, and not mortal.

There is no such thing as a venial or mortal sin when it comes to eternal consequences. The eternal consequence is death, for ALL SIN. venial and mortal sin is a false doctrine propogated by rome, not found in scripture.

Certainly, we should not rejoice if anyone sins. So we shouldn't be casting our thoughts to alleged sins of Mary. Just rejoice that Christ her Son saved her. And rejoice when Christ saves us. We need to find salvation in Christ. Christ has saved us by His blood. Let us now receive the (His) salvation in our lives personally, through the Church. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

I am not rejoicing the sin of anyone, I am trying to expose a false doctrine of the "queen of heaven"

 

[Scotth1960]

Ummmmm... There's much more to this than is

being considered. An understanding of the propagation of human souls-spirits is essential

to recognize what actually happened during the virgin birth. Knowing who the Father and

Spirit are is also vital. If they are "persons", then the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus.

Ask yourself every conceivable question about Jesus' soul and spirit as a man. Few have

any better understanding of man's spirit-soul-body constitution than they do of God's.

If they aren't persons, then the Holy Spirit is the Father, and the Father is the Holy Spirit, and

Jesus is the Father and the Holy Spirit, and the Father is Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That's the

consequences of denying three persons in one God: they all become one another. It's a

Oneness in the sense that they all are each other as God, since they aren't persons, they

must be the same person as each other, one God person in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. A

real mess! But not "a fine mess!" A bad one. Heresy. Take care.

God save us all from Sabellianism, Oneness doctrine. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

Well since Christ had not died yet. No ones sins could have been forgiven. Even OT saints did not have complete forgiveness until Christ's death, proven by the fact Christ went to paradise after his death, and took paradise to heaven with him. Haven paid the debt in full..

Yes her sin was forgiven, when she recieved her son as her savior. not before she was born.


[/b]

Its a mystery? To who? What happened when moses came? The law was given. There was no law before moses. Paul is saying all before moses sinned, even though there was no law to show them they sinned. They were just as guilty as those who sinned after the law said "you shall not covet" It does not mean these people did not sin.


There is no such thing as a venial or mortal sin when it comes to eternal consequences. The eternal consequence is death, for ALL SIN. venial and mortal sin is a false doctrine propogated by rome, not found in scripture.




I am not rejoicing the sin of anyone, I am trying to expose a false doctrine of the "queen of heaven"

Mortal and venial sin is in Scripture. I believe it's in 1 John. Which says there is a sin which does not lead unto death. But some sins are mortal, and lead unto death. With your knowledge of the Bible, you should be able to locate this verse. Take care. Scott
PS The queen is mentioned in Psalm 45, and who else could this be but the ever-virgin Mary, and where else but in heaven could be the Heavenly King and the queen at his side, at His right hand. Take care.