Once saved always saved ?

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I really don't like denominational tags, Christian is enough for me
Thats why refuse to mention what Church I go to so no one can use a "preconceived" notion of what I believe. Although they still do it.

I am not sure where they get 3000 denominations. But the way I see it there are two churches (maybe three.)

The licentious (although I know of none of these)

the legalistic or works based.

the faith based.

all of these 3001 denominations fall into one of these categories.
 
Jun 24, 2010
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I will quote scripture on this, not opinion

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these because I am going to the Father
John 14:11-12

So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders
Acts 14:3

I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God, by what I have said and done-by the power of signs and miracles, through the power of the Spirit
Rom 15:18&19

This salvation which was first announced by the Lord was confirmed to us by those who heard him
God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit
Heb 2:3&4

Please do not query this again with me, I have given you scripture to back up what I am saying
All you have done is verify that the apostles were given signs and miracles to confirm the message of the gospel of Christ to the Jews and to those Gentiles that were in unbelief. These gave validity to the salvation that God granted to these two groups and was used for the induction of the church. It was important for God to add to the church and have the signs and miracles follow keeping both groups, especially the Jewish converts, in the church. They gradually dissipated because the word of God began to produce faith in believers and they began to trust God through the word instead of through signs and wonders.

When young believers are added to the church, God at times confirms their conversion with a supernatural occurrence that means alot to them and to build them up. But as they grow they must grow in grace and knowledge and learn how to live by faith, because the just shall live by faith. They will go through trials individually and with the local church so they can mature and they learn the importance of sound doctrine and the promises of God. These supernatural occurrences were just a stepping stone that they needed to get them to seek God with their whole heart.

This is why we do not see signs and miracles happening in the local churches that are growing in grace and knowledge of Christ. The church is to bear fruit and be lead by Christ. They do not need signs or miracles to trust in the living God because the word is dwelling richly in them. Occationally God may do something supernatural to stir up believers who may be getting discouraged or to confirm a promise or vision, but for the most part God requires that we walk by faith and live by every word of God. This is how the believer becomes stable with a sound mind and is not tossed by every wind of doctrine.
 
Dec 19, 2009
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All you have done is verify that the apostles were given signs and miracles to confirm the message of the gospel of Christ to the Jews and to those Gentiles that were in unbelief. These gave validity to the salvation that God granted to these two groups and was used for the induction of the church. It was important for God to add to the church and have the signs and miracles follow keeping both groups, especially the Jewish converts, in the church. They gradually dissipated because the word of God began to produce faith in believers and they began to trust God through the word instead of through signs and wonders.

When young believers are added to the church, God at times confirms their conversion with a supernatural occurrence that means alot to them and to build them up. But as they grow they must grow in grace and knowledge and learn how to live by faith, because the just shall live by faith. They will go through trials individually and with the local church so they can mature and they learn the importance of sound doctrine and the promises of God. These supernatural occurrences were just a stepping stone that they needed to get them to seek God with their whole heart.

This is why we do not see signs and miracles happening in the local churches that are growing in grace and knowledge of Christ. The church is to bear fruit and be lead by Christ. They do not need signs or miracles to trust in the living God because the word is dwelling richly in them. Occationally God may do something supernatural to stir up believers who may be getting discouraged or to confirm a promise or vision, but for the most part God requires that we walk by faith and live by every word of God. This is how the believer becomes stable with a sound mind and is not tossed by every wind of doctrine.
Signs, wonders and miracles confirmed the true message being preached. God does not change, he is the same yesterday, today and forever
 
Jan 14, 2010
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I don't like denominational tags either, but I'm not the one following John calvin and Augustine... You are.
Not my fault Calvinism is the most popular doctrine today, but just because it's popular doesn't make it right or Biblical. You can make anything biblical if you go into the Word looking for proof for your own pprivate interpretation
 
Dec 19, 2009
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I don't like denominational tags either, but I'm not the one following John calvin and Augustine... You are.
Not my fault Calvinism is the most popular doctrine today, but just because it's popular doesn't make it right or Biblical. You can make anything biblical if you go into the Word looking for proof for your own pprivate interpretation
Well as I know nothing of what Augustine wrote and only know that Calvin believed in predestination I don't know how I can be said to be following them. I have heard Rom 3:10-19 refered to as the
total depravity of man

I don't read up on theologians and scholars btw
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I don't like denominational tags either, but I'm not the one following John calvin and Augustine... You are.
Not my fault Calvinism is the most popular doctrine today, but just because it's popular doesn't make it right or Biblical. You can make anything biblical if you go into the Word looking for proof for your own pprivate interpretation
I reject limited atonement. I reject total depravity, and unconditional election from the calvanist viewpoint. I reject irresistable grace. I am not a calvanist

I reject the arminian view that salvation can be lost. Thus I am not arminian.

Again, Does anyone want to discuss the word of God. Or do we want to stereotype people, and use our preconceived notions of what anyone believes based in this stereotype we have been given by our churches?
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
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There are none who are good, who seek to do righteousness. Natural man is of, and speaks the words of, his spiritual father, the devil. We cannot be saved except we be joined with Jesus in His death and burial, so we might joined with Him in His resurrection. This is salvation, because we were cometely despoiled by sin. In fact, our birth into this world was as the actual enemies of God, against Him in every way, by our very nature.

It is written that every person who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. But what does this mean, to call on His name? It means that we have seen the truth, and agree with this truth, that we are utterly without hope, completely unjust and evil, against God and His truth and love. That we have only one deserved destination, hell and the the lake of fire, forever denied the live giving presence of God, separated from Him eternally. No on comes to this truth but the Holy Spirit reveals it to them. To disagree with Him when He convicts is blasphemy against Him.

How do we know the depths of our depravity? By the nature of the sacrifice needed to redeem us. Not just any ol cow or lamb or dove. No, it took the only begotten Son of the only living God. The sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient, but realize this, that it is with difficulty that even the most righteous of us are saved.

The gospel as preached today is a lie. It talks of grace, and leaves the sinner estranged from God who would save him.

I don't expect any to believe me, a sinner who hears the voice of Jesus, who lives to be found in Him only. No, believe the man who has made it his life's work to understand scripture, to work in the être gut of his own might to tell others of the bible and the Jesus of the bible. Believe him when he tells you that all you have to do is believe the bible and what he tells you it says, and you will be saved.

I hole that this works for you.

For Jesus is not of the bible, the bible is from Him.
 
Jan 14, 2010
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Well as I know nothing of what Augustine wrote and only know that Calvin believed in predestination I don't know how I can be said to be following them. I have heard Rom 3:10-19 refered to as the
total depravity of man

I don't read up on theologians and scholars btw
as a brother, i highly recommend you do. I take the Bible first in everything that I believe, but i do understand the importance of what our pastors teach us today, and the importance of what was taught in early Christianity
Proverbs 14:15 tells us "the simple believes everything, but the prudent gives thought to his steps"
the NT tells us many times to not only beware of deception, but also to "stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter." (2 Thes. 2:15)

augustine was active in the 4th century, and he was a Manichaean turned Christian. Manichaeanism was a mixture of Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and Gnostic Christianity. he did teach the trinity doctrine, but he also was the first to create many of the doctrines that we have seen in all of Christianity, Catholic and Protestant:

~ Absolute predestination
~ Impossibility of falling away or apostasy. (Eternal Security)
~ Man has no free will.
~ One cannot know if they are saved.
~ God commands impossibilities.
~ The supreme authority of the Roman church.
~ Purgatory.
~ Prayers for the dead.
~ The damnation of unbaptized infants and adults.
~ Sex & is sinful because depravity is inherited.
~ Suicide is the unforgivable sin

Augustine taught the very base of what we know as Calvinism because of who he was fighting against: Pelagius. Pelagius believed that a man could "will" himself into heaven, and believed in the free will of humanity... Augustine did not. Gnosticism originally teaches the duality and polarity of the flesh and the spirit:
~ the flesh is corrupt, sinful, depraved
~ the spirit is holy, sinless, perfect, and godly
Gnostic Christianity still took that into affect, and incorporated the belief that through a secret knowledge we attain salvation... it's how the Gnostic Gospels come into play.
While Pelagius taught in free will and choice, Augustine took the extreme opposite. it was then when his manichaean beliefs affected his view of what Christianity is. there was a council that was later held in determining if what Pelagius taught was either biblical or heretical. In the end, it was concluded that what Pelagius taught fell within orthodox doctrine.

i dont say this to try and impress... i say this because it counts to know our history, and where the things believe come from. quite a bit of the so-called "Christian" doctrine that we believe in has roots in Gnosticism. Gnosticism was a dangerous teaching... Manichaeanism was extremely popular in the 2nd-3rd century, and almost became more popular than Christianity.

the early church had something we dont: oral tradition. Polycarp was orally taught by the very apostle John himself, and Polycarp passed everything he was taught to Irenaeus. I will stand and say that if eternal security, or limited atonement, or double predestination did have historical credence before 300AD, then there would be a reason to consider it... however, all Calvinistic doctrine has no existence before Augustine... doctrine like that can't just pop out of thin air and immediately be called Biblical... something is very wrong with that picture

with theologians and scholars, im very cautious at what i hear... im cautious with what my pastor says, what my friends say, what my parents say, what my counselors say... I dont take them as truth at all. i always study for myself and see if what they say lines up with the Word first, then church history
 
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Dec 19, 2009
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as a brother, i highly recommend you do. I take the Bible first in everything that I believe, but i do understand the importance of what our pastors teach us today, and the importance of what was taught in early Christianity
Proverbs 14:15 tells us "the simple believes everything, but the prudent gives thought to his steps"
the NT tells us many times to not only beware of deception, but also to "stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter." (2 Thes. 2:15)

augustine was active in the 4th century, and he was a Manichaean turned Christian. Manichaeanism was a mixture of Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and Gnostic Christianity. he did teach the trinity doctrine, but he also was the first to create many of the doctrines that we have seen in all of Christianity, Catholic and Protestant:

~ Absolute predestination
~ Impossibility of falling away or apostasy. (Eternal Security)
~ Man has no free will.
~ One cannot know if they are saved.
~ God commands impossibilities.
~ The supreme authority of the Roman church.
~ Purgatory.
~ Prayers for the dead.
~ The damnation of unbaptized infants and adults.
~ Sex & is sinful because depravity is inherited.
~ Suicide is the unforgivable sin

Augustine taught the very base of what we know as Calvinism because of who he was fighting against: Pelagius. Pelagius believed that a man could "will" himself into heaven, and believed in the free will of humanity... Augustine did not. Gnosticism originally teaches the duality and polarity of the flesh and the spirit:
~ the flesh is corrupt, sinful, depraved
~ the spirit is holy, sinless, perfect, and godly
Gnostic Christianity still took that into affect, and incorporated the belief that through a secret knowledge we attain salvation... it's how the Gnostic Gospels come into play.
While Pelagius taught in free will and choice, Augustine took the extreme opposite. it was then when his manichaean beliefs affected his view of what Christianity is. there was a council that was later held in determining if what Pelagius taught was either biblical or heretical. In the end, it was concluded that what Pelagius taught fell within orthodox doctrine.

i dont say this to try and impress... i say this because it counts to know our history, and where the things believe come from. quite a bit of the so-called "Christian" doctrine that we believe in has roots in Gnosticism. Gnosticism was a dangerous teaching... Manichaeanism was extremely popular in the 2nd-3rd century, and almost became more popular than Christianity.

the early church had something we dont: oral tradition. Polycarp was orally taught by the very apostle John himself, and Polycarp passed everything he was taught to Irenaeus. I will stand and say that if eternal security, or limited atonement, or double predestination did have historical credence before 300AD, then there would be a reason to consider it... however, all Calvinistic doctrine has no existence before Augustine... doctrine like that can't just pop out of thin air and immediately be called Biblical... something is very wrong with that picture

with theologians and scholars, im very cautious at what i hear... im cautious with what my pastor says, what my friends say, what my parents say, what my counselors say... I dont take them as truth at all. i always study for myself and see if what they say lines up with the Word first, then church history
I appreciate the time you have taken to write this out, but as I said, reading up on theologians/scholars is something I have never done nor do I feel the need to do so.
The Bible itself and a reliance on the Holy Spirit is soley where I place my faith and trust to know what I need to know concerning the Christian faith
 
Jun 24, 2010
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Signs, wonders and miracles confirmed the true message being preached. God does not change, he is the same yesterday, today and forever
What you are saying is this. If these signs, wonders and miracles are not happening in the local assembly, then the message being preached is not true no matter how much fruit may be in that local church. The believers in that assembly have been saved through the blood of Christ, they love God and one another, they are being taught the word and sound doctrine and they live and walk by faith in the promises of God. New believers are being added to that local assembly, they pray for and edify one another, they train, send and support missionaries from their own assembly into all the world to preach the gospel and have many other 'fish hooks' to reach lost souls locally.

They simply practice the faith that God has given to them from the scriptures through obedience to what God has called them to do and recognize the activity of the Holy Spirit in all of these areas. However, according to you, if they do not have signs, wonders and miracles (which you have not even provided what these things might be) then their message is not true, their ministry is not true and their fruit is not from God. In your eyes they are not a valid ministry nor do they have a valid message from God. If you are going to go that far then you must also believe that the Holy Spirit was not involved in any of it. Without the signs, miracles and wonders you have taken the legitimacy and calling away from that local assembly and any labor of love that has produced fruit unto God.

LBG, your label on this local assembly - NOT FROM GOD
 
Dec 19, 2009
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What you are saying is this. If these signs, wonders and miracles are not happening in the local assembly, then the message being preached is not true no matter how much fruit may be in that local church. The believers in that assembly have been saved through the blood of Christ, they love God and one another, they are being taught the word and sound doctrine and they live and walk by faith in the promises of God. New believers are being added to that local assembly, they pray for and edify one another, they train, send and support missionaries from their own assembly into all the world to preach the gospel and have many other 'fish hooks' to reach lost souls locally.

They simply practice the faith that God has given to them from the scriptures through obedience to what God has called them to do and recognize the activity of the Holy Spirit in all of these areas. However, according to you, if they do not have signs, wonders and miracles (which you have not even provided what these things might be) then their message is not true, their ministry is not true and their fruit is not from God. In your eyes they are not a valid ministry nor do they have a valid message from God. If you are going to go that far then you must also believe that the Holy Spirit was not involved in any of it. Without the signs, miracles and wonders you have taken the legitimacy and calling away from that local assembly and any labor of love that has produced fruit unto God.

LBG, your label on this local assembly - NOT FROM GOD
Firstly,
I gave you clear Biblical verses to back up what I am saying is true.
Secondly.
Of course this is uncomfortable for you to hear, I would be greatly suprised if you did not react as you have.
Thirdly I do believe a watered down message on the whole is being preached today, and this is why the conformation of signs, wonders and miracles are rarely seen in churches in the western world
Of course you will react with hostiity to this, I expected nothing else, though you should not, as I am simply repeating what is written in the Bible

Has God changed? Never

Has the spirit who the power comes through changed? Never
Has the true message changed? Never
But has peoples perceptions of that true message changed? I woild say in so many cases and churches, definately

There is power in the truth, uncomfortable reading, yes, but it is Biblical

Many good works can be done, and with a sincere heart, but it is the truth of the Gospel that brings the power.
 
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Jun 24, 2010
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Firstly,
I gave you clear Biblical verses to back up what I am saying is true.
Secondly.
Of course this is uncomfortable for you to hear, I would be greatly suprised if you did not react as you have.
Thirdly I do believe a watered down message on the whole is being preached today, and this is why the conformation of signs, wonders and miracles are rarely seen in churches in the western world
Of course you will react with hostiity to this, I expected nothing else, though you should not, as I am simply repeating what is written in the Bible

Has God changed? Never

Has the spirit who the power comes through changed? Never
Has the true message changed? Never
But has peoples perceptions of that true message changed? I woild say in so many cases and churches, definately

There is power in the truth, uncomfortable reading, yes, but it is Biblical

Many good works can be done, and with a sincere heart, but it is the truth of the Gospel that brings the power.
Just because you give a few verses does not mean that they are applicable. God's nature and character has not changed. His attributes have not changed. He is the God of all grace and the Father of all mercies. The fact that we have been given the sure mercies of David has not changed (). Our salvation comes from Him and that has not changed. However, His method, His manner and His wisdom in dealing with man and His people is diverse.

If we are to apply that God is the same yesterday and today... God literally lead the people of Israel in the wilderness with a cloud by day and a fire by night. Moses and the company of the Israelites is compared to being the church by Paul in (Acts 7:38), yet we are not literally lead by a cloud by day and a fire by night. The cloud and fire would qualify as a sign or wonder but we are not lead in that manner as the church or are you going to get hyper-spiritual on me and say that the fire is the cloven tongues given at Pentecost and the cloud is the cloud of witnesses in (Heb 12:1) and tie them together somehow and apply that to the church?

At one time God's people were under the law and those that transgressed the law suffered the punishment described under it. But it is not that way for the church that has been purchased by the blood of Christ for they are all under grace, both Jew and Gentile, and when they transgress the law they confess their sin and God is faithful and just to forgive because they have access as individual believers and priests. Those that were under the law had no advocate because the blood of bulls and goats could not take and put away their sins once and for all. But we have the blood of Christ and he is our advocate. Is it the same for us who are under grace as it was for them who were under the law?

What is uncomfortable is the terrible error that some live in because they refuse to be taught by those that God has raised up in the church and they come up with these strange doctrines, understandings and conclusions of their own, claiming it came from the Spirit, and when these are put to the test they scoff and justify their error through stubbornness and pride and use the scriptures to do it. They wrestle with the scriptures and end up handling the word in a deceitful manner and not understanding things as they should.

BTW - Christ is the head of the church and that includes every single local assembly in the world since the cross, the resurrection and Pentecost. Has Christ ever stopped being the head of any local assembly that was called by God, even if it was Laodicean? Many of you think that when Jesus said that He was ready to spue them out of His mouth, because they were neither hot or cold, that He was rejecting them and the salvation that He had given them by grace. Christ never mentioned anything having to do with their sin but only with their disposition toward the work of grace and what God wanted to do through the word and Spirit in their midst. They fluctuated back and forth from hot to cold and from cold to hot, wishy-washy, double-minded and can't quite make up their mind being caught between two things, they were neurotic and psychotic. They did not have a sound mind because they did not have sound doctrine reigning in their heart and they were tossed around as vacillating believers who were content in all the pleasures and comfortability of the flesh.

But is (Rev 3:19-22) Jesus gave his conclusion to all the churches previously mentioned and Laodecia was part of it. In (verse 19) He said, 'As many as I love I rebuke and chasten, therefore be zealous and repent. For Laodicea, repentance was to be applied to their lukewarmness, but He loved them despite the fact that they they made Him sick to His stomach and He rejected their wishy-washy vacillation.
 
Dec 19, 2009
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Just because you give a few verses does not mean that they are applicable. God's nature and character has not changed. His attributes have not changed. He is the God of all grace and the Father of all mercies. The fact that we have been given the sure mercies of David has not changed (). Our salvation comes from Him and that has not changed. However, His method, His manner and His wisdom in dealing with man and His people is diverse.

If we are to apply that God is the same yesterday and today... God literally lead the people of Israel in the wilderness with a cloud by day and a fire by night. Moses and the company of the Israelites is compared to being the church by Paul in (Acts 7:38), yet we are not literally lead by a cloud by day and a fire by night. The cloud and fire would qualify as a sign or wonder but we are not lead in that manner as the church or are you going to get hyper-spiritual on me and say that the fire is the cloven tongues given at Pentecost and the cloud is the cloud of witnesses in (Heb 12:1) and tie them together somehow and apply that to the church?

At one time God's people were under the law and those that transgressed the law suffered the punishment described under it. But it is not that way for the church that has been purchased by the blood of Christ for they are all under grace, both Jew and Gentile, and when they transgress the law they confess their sin and God is faithful and just to forgive because they have access as individual believers and priests. Those that were under the law had no advocate because the blood of bulls and goats could not take and put away their sins once and for all. But we have the blood of Christ and he is our advocate. Is it the same for us who are under grace as it was for them who were under the law?

What is uncomfortable is the terrible error that some live in because they refuse to be taught by those that God has raised up in the church and they come up with these strange doctrines, understandings and conclusions of their own, claiming it came from the Spirit, and when these are put to the test they scoff and justify their error through stubbornness and pride and use the scriptures to do it. They wrestle with the scriptures and end up handling the word in a deceitful manner and not understanding things as they should.

BTW - Christ is the head of the church and that includes every single local assembly in the world since the cross, the resurrection and Pentecost. Has Christ ever stopped being the head of any local assembly that was called by God, even if it was Laodicean? Many of you think that when Jesus said that He was ready to spue them out of His mouth, because they were neither hot or cold, that He was rejecting them and the salvation that He had given them by grace. Christ never mentioned anything having to do with their sin but only with their disposition toward the work of grace and what God wanted to do through the word and Spirit in their midst. They fluctuated back and forth from hot to cold and from cold to hot, wishy-washy, double-minded and can't quite make up their mind being caught between two things, they were neurotic and psychotic. They did not have a sound mind because they did not have sound doctrine reigning in their heart and they were tossed around as vacillating believers who were content in all the pleasures and comfortability of the flesh.

But is (Rev 3:19-22) Jesus gave his conclusion to all the churches previously mentioned and Laodecia was part of it. In (verse 19) He said, 'As many as I love I rebuke and chasten, therefore be zealous and repent. For Laodicea, repentance was to be applied to their lukewarmness, but He loved them despite the fact that they they made Him sick to His stomach and He rejected their wishy-washy vacillation.
Red

Tell me, why are the vast majority of churches(including born again churches) mainly filled with those who come from loving secure backgrounds, and are therefore mainly filled with those who come from the more affluent half of society and the more intellectually gifted half of society?

Is God a God of class?

Why are people deserting churches in record numbers in the US and Britain?

What of the lame, blind, crushed, oppressed, downtrodden etc? The very people Christ was annointed to preach to?

There is a world of desperate people caught in despair and engulfed by misery who would never dream of steppping foot insaide a church, why not?

You need to be able to face and have answers for these questions, not just continually recite scripture verses.

That is not enough, it never was.

I have told you before, this is what God requires

He who speaks on his own does so to gain honour for himself, but he who works for the honour of the one who sent him is a man of truth, there is nothing false about him
John 7:18&19

That is the cross the Christian is called to take up. You can knock on as many doors as you want to, but unless it is done with the right heart it will count for little
You can know the literal words of the Bible off by heart but unless only honour for God is sought from the heart it will mean little

And if we do only seek honour from the heart for God He will give us truth if we rely on him for it.

And with the truth of the Gospel of grace in our hearts and hearts that seek only the glory for God the power will surely come. The Holy Spirit is the greatest power in the universe and he will always confirnm the true message with signs, wonders and miracles.

But the cross taken up has to reject pride, reject wanting praise from man or to be looked to by man, such a Christianity is not seeking glory and honour for the one true God alone.
And if a person does not reject these things they can work 12 hours a day to seek converts to the faith but they will not see the power. The power that certainly is available.
 
Jun 24, 2010
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Red

Tell me, why are the vast majority of churches(including born again churches) mainly filled with those who come from loving secure backgrounds, and are therefore mainly filled with those who come from the more affluent half of society and the more intellectually gifted half of society?

What makes you think that all the churches are like this? It has never been my experience but I am sure that there are denominations that cater to certain classes. You have no knowledge of my background and I can assure you that I fall under (1Cor 1:26-28).

Is God a God of class?

Why are people deserting churches in record numbers in the US and Britain?

Perhaps God is pruning the vine, but that does not mean that His grace is not sufficient.

What of the lame, blind, crushed, oppressed, downtrodden etc? The very people Christ was annointed to preach to?

There is a world of desperate people caught in despair and engulfed by misery who would never dream of steppping foot insaide a church, why not?

You need to be able to face and have answers for these questions, not just continually recite scripture verses.

The ministry that I am a part of is built on people like you describe that have a great need for the grace of God. You presume otherwise because you do not see the great things that God can do for those that He raises up. We are built up in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and our hearts are established in that grace, we become strong in it and minister that grace to others. I don't just recite verses as you alledge, but have an understanding from the scriptures through being taught and through the Holy Spirit. Isn't that what God ascribes for every believer?

That is not enough, it never was.

I have told you before, this is what God requires

He who speaks on his own does so to gain honour for himself, but he who works for the honour of the one who sent him is a man of truth, there is nothing false about him
John 7:18&19

That is the cross the Christian is called to take up. You can knock on as many doors as you want to, but unless it is done with the right heart it will count for little

Is it for you to judge whether it is being done with the right heart when God's fruit is being produced?

You can know the literal words of the Bible off by heart but unless only honour for God is sought from the heart it will mean little


You presume again because your heart will not accept the ability of the grace of God to transform a sinner's life into a living epistle know and read of all men (2Cor 3:2). There is no condemnation in that.
We obey our calling by faith and God brings about the fruit and that means everytjhing to God.

And if we do only seek honour from the heart for God He will give us truth if we rely on him for it.

And with the truth of the Gospel of grace in our hearts and hearts that seek only the glory for God the power will surely come. The Holy Spirit is the greatest power in the universe and he will always confirnm the true message with signs, wonders and miracles.

But the cross taken up has to reject pride, reject wanting praise from man or to be looked to by man, such a Christianity is not seeking glory and honour for the one true God alone.
And if a person does not reject these things they can work 12 hours a day to seek converts to the faith but they will not see the power. The power that certainly is available.
I do not have a problem with insecuirty concerning the things of God and understand that it is all grace. The written word is the most precious commodity on the earth and we are to hide it in our heart. We should be challenged by it because it is quick and powerful and very sharp. It penetrates deep into the joints and marrow of the bone (our framework), the very substance of who we are and that word transforms us and renews us mentally so that Christ can be formed in us (Gal 4:19). We are in Christ's stead with a ministery and word of reconciliation to give to those that need to be reconciled to God (2Cor 5:18-20).
 
Dec 19, 2009
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I do not have a problem with insecuirty concerning the things of God and understand that it is all grace. The written word is the most precious commodity on the earth and we are to hide it in our heart. We should be challenged by it because it is quick and powerful and very sharp. It penetrates deep into the joints and marrow of the bone (our framework), the very substance of who we are and that word transforms us and renews us mentally so that Christ can be formed in us (Gal 4:19). We are in Christ's stead with a ministery and word of reconciliation to give to those that need to be reconciled to God (2Cor 5:18-20).
So where is the power?
 
Jun 24, 2010
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So where is the power?
Is there no power demonstrated by God to the soul that is redeemed and regenerated by the Holy Spirit at salvation (Titus 3:5)? Is not the preaching of the gospel the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth (Rom 1:16)? Are we not kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation (of our bodies - 1Pt1:5)? For is not the preaching of the cross the power of God unto us who are saved (1Cor 1:18). There is so much more and all of it relates to what Christ has done and provided for and to the life of every sinner that has come to Him for salvation by faith and believed, and there is no exceptions.
 

Dude653

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2011
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There are many issues on which christians are never goiong to agree... This is one of them.. along with female pastors and should Christians drink alcohol
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
There are many issues on which christians are never goiong to agree... This is one of them.. along with female pastors and should Christians drink alcohol
The problem is female pastors and drinking alcohol doctrines will affect no ones salvation. We are talking about the Gospel here. Paul makes it clear. there is only one gospel. There are not two or three or four or whatever. Only one gospel saved. all others will lead to eternal damnation. I think this topic is one which must be looked at. for our eternity depends on.

Whether a woman can teach, or a christian can have a drink is not a pertinent doctrine. And like eating meat in the NT vs being a vegitarian. or what day we hold as Holy (one day vs everyday) we should not argue and fight. But learn to live with one another with our differences. for these doctrines do not affect ones eternity
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Dec 19, 2009
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What is uncomfortable is the terrible error that some live in because they refuse to be taught by those that God has raised up in the church and they come up with these strange doctrines, understandings and conclusions of their own, claiming it came from the Spirit, and when these are put to the test they scoff and justify their error through stubbornness and pride and use the scriptures to do it. They wrestle with the scriptures and end up handling the word in a deceitful manner and not understanding things as they should.

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Well I would call the following strange doctrines

Satan and his confederates had the power to keep God Himself in the grave for three days

A person does not need to repent at conversion

A person who says they can speak in tongues may in all proabability be being led of satan

When I have continuously asked you to condemn Phariseeical practices in churches you have always refused to do so

And when I repeatedly asked you if a person ten years after conversion continuously beat their wife, got drunk, had multiple affairs and did not read a Bible in your opinion could they be in a saved state?
Most times you did not answer, when you did you suggested they could well be

So who best describes your above comment? You or me?
 
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I appreciate the time you have taken to write this out, but as I said, reading up on theologians/scholars is something I have never done nor do I feel the need to do so.
The Bible itself and a reliance on the Holy Spirit is soley where I place my faith and trust to know what I need to know concerning the Christian faith
then i guess verses like 2 thess 2:15 mean absolutely nothing to your christianity