Once saved always saved ?

[livingbygrace]

I understand that you do not want to be known by these things but if you don't, then don't communicate to others in that manner. The way that you have defended yourself comes from insecurity. If you want to defend the faith then explain from the scriptures why it is the will of God for believers to esteem and be a joint participant of the local church. If you do that, then others will believe that you have convictions that come from the truth of the scriptures and not from personal preference that came through some family negative experience. Don't worry what VW might think, because like you said, we will all have to face God with the truth that abides in the heart.

BTW - Did God call you to any of those local churches and were you edified and built up in any of those churches through the word that was preached? Or were they just some kind of stepping stone for you to go in your independant walk with God that you have now?

The church I went to for many yearsa in my youth left me feeling crushed and in despair.
They continuously preached as to how righteous lives we should live, but lacked true love, mercy and compassion, I am sure in your experiance of churches you have come accrposs some with the same atttitude

But many had Phariuseeical attitudes. I guess you woud feel at home in such churches as when I continuously point out to you according to scripture how such practices are wrong you say nothing in reply.

Why do you not explain why your church lacks REAL power and does not see the signs, wonders and miracles that CONFIRM the true message ids being preached?

Most churches are so far removed from the NT church these days it is not suprising there is seldom seen the power

A Christianity reliasnt on the literal word and human, logical understanding pof that word has left those who follow such an approach virtually impotent where true power is concerned that comes from the TRUE Gospel of grace.

Instead of fault finding at others Red, look inward ask yourself the questions I am posing here if you can, otherwise you will have to settle for a weak Christianity devoid of power, God wants more than that for his followers.
But maybe you feel you are fine just the way you are

 

[VW]

By implication was Jesus Christ adding to the law when He mandated His disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel and teach all nations as a fisher of men in (Mt 28:19,20, Mk 1:17, 16:15).

Both verbs, preach and teach are verbs with the imperative mood - which means that they are commands or mandates to be carried out through the authority of the one that gave them.

I hope you are not implying that we as believers do not have a mandate from Christ to go into all the world, as a fisher of men, to preach the gospel and teach all nations what we have been taught concerning Him? Jesus Christ came to seek and save that which is lost (Lk 19:10) and we are to do the same in all the world.

That we have a mandate? What Jesus do you know?

We have a life, not mandates. We have the Spirit, not mandates. The Spirit leads us into all the world to preach the gospel, and He preaches through us. If we are going out into all the world, and giving a testimony of what we have read, and not what we know through spiritual revelation by the Holy Spirit, then we are not doing God's work, but our own.

And the end result of this preaching without the power of God is that very few, if any, actually ever meet God, because there is no power of God in the testimony.

That your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

What will you say to all those who have heard of Jesus without the power of Jesus in your words, in that day?

 

[VW]

The word of God is sharper than any two edged sword, even to dividing the soul from the spirit. Many christians cannot discern soul power from spirit power, cannot see the sin that is possible from one's soul, but that the spirit is sinless and perfect. They cannot see that abiding in Jesus is being led by the Spirit, through faith in His working. They cannot see this because they have never been told.

Our souls have tremendous power, much more than we realize. The power of our words is astounding. One man stirred up an entire nation, deceived them all, and led them into ruin; all by the power of his soul, and a little help from Satan. It has happened over and over and over. It is happening even now, and the deception is rampant, substituting soul power for spiritual power, for God's power.

What is so awful about this in the church is that the gospel preached in the power of the soul does stir up faith, but not in the actual power of God. And because faith of some sort is gained, that person no longer feels the need to come to God to be saved, to live in God to grow in salvation, to walk in the Spirit to do the righteous works of God. And if anyone comes and tells them that the need to walk by the Spirit, in order to abide in Jesus, they will be angry and dismissive and spiteful, because these words call into question all that they have built their faith on.

I know what I am talking about, because like Paul, who built his faith on a system and words written in a book, I persecuted Christ, lived in gross sin right in the congregation, until God destroyed my faith to build true faith in Him.

This is what this thread is really about.

In Christ,

 

[Red33]

That we have a mandate? What Jesus do you know?

We have a life, not mandates. We have the Spirit, not mandates. The Spirit leads us into all the world to preach the gospel, and He preaches through us. If we are going out into all the world, and giving a testimony of what we have read, and not what we know through spiritual revelation by the Holy Spirit, then we are not doing God's work, but our own.

And the end result of this preaching without the power of God is that very few, if any, actually ever meet God, because there is no power of God in the testimony.

That your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

What will you say to all those who have heard of Jesus without the power of Jesus in your words, in that day?

If you were a little more objective in your studies the Spirit would have more to work with and be able to show some of the things that you have missed and have no conviction about. To preach and teach are commands and are mandated by the Lord. That is how we treat them by faith and we prepare ourselves to go as well as being available to go, 'Here am I send me', 'how will they hear without a preacher and how will they preach without being sent' (Rom 10:13-15)...


13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

We do not wait for them to come to us, we must go to them with our feet and as we go God is with us and as we lift up Christ, He draws men unto us and they believe our word (Jn 17:20) and call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. That is the gospel and our responsibility to it and it is simple and beautiful and how men get saved. If we do not obey God will raise up others who will.

 

[Red33]

The word of God is sharper than any two edged sword, even to dividing the soul from the spirit. Many christians cannot discern soul power from spirit power, cannot see the sin that is possible from one's soul, but that the spirit is sinless and perfect. They cannot see that abiding in Jesus is being led by the Spirit, through faith in His working. They cannot see this because they have never been told.

Our souls have tremendous power, much more than we realize. The power of our words is astounding. One man stirred up an entire nation, deceived them all, and led them into ruin; all by the power of his soul, and a little help from Satan. It has happened over and over and over. It is happening even now, and the deception is rampant, substituting soul power for spiritual power, for God's power.

What is so awful about this in the church is that the gospel preached in the power of the soul does stir up faith, but not in the actual power of God. And because faith of some sort is gained, that person no longer feels the need to come to God to be saved, to live in God to grow in salvation, to walk in the Spirit to do the righteous works of God. And if anyone comes and tells them that the need to walk by the Spirit, in order to abide in Jesus, they will be angry and dismissive and spiteful, because these words call into question all that they have built their faith on.

I know what I am talking about, because like Paul, who built his faith on a system and words written in a book, I persecuted Christ, lived in gross sin right in the congregation, until God destroyed my faith to build true faith in Him. I suppose God had to take you out of the church to make that happen, right, because the church is so corrupt and void of the Spirit unlike you?

This is what this thread is really about.

In Christ,

Our job is to edify and build up the body of Christ, the church, and every member of it. You boast of knowing what you talking about in the power of the Spirit, then where is your fruit? Paul had fruit in all the churches but where is yours? If a man abides in the vine (Christ) he shall bear much fruit (Jn 15:4,5). Again I ask, 'WHERE IS YOUR FRUIT?'

Jn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

[VW]

That your fruit should remain. Remain, forever, eternally, never to die.

Words spoken from the mind of men will never, in this life or the next, bring about fruit that remains. They cannot because they do not have the power of God in them.

In this discussion, it was shown how when confronted by the devil and tempted, Jesus spoke the words of scripture and defeated the enemy. But Jesus said what about the words He spoke? Does anyone remember? The words that He spoke were the words that He heard His Father saying, and the deeds that He did were what He saw His Father doing.

If there is one person who has received the Holy Spirit and the new birth by Him, and Jesus reigning and ruling in their heart, and they hear His voice and obey because they have His love in them, that is fruit that will remain. Just one like this, just one, is worth many many many who do not know Him, who just believe without having the power of God to base their faith on.

Salvation is life from above, from God. Salvation is being raised up by the power of God from death into the life, the resurrection life, of Jesus. Salvation is God working in us in the very same power that He demonstrated when He raised Jesus from the dead. Salvation has nothing to do with knowing or hearing the words of the bible, and everything to do with hearing the voice of God, and knowing the power of God, and finally, knowing God.

I am afraid that your very own words condemn you Red.

 

[VW]

If we do not obey God will raise up others who will.

Seems to me that He is doing that very thing, and it is very upsetting to those who are not doing His will.

 

[Red33]

That your fruit should remain. Remain, forever, eternally, never to die.

Words spoken from the mind of men will never, in this life or the next, bring about fruit that remains. They cannot because they do not have the power of God in them.

In this discussion, it was shown how when confronted by the devil and tempted, Jesus spoke the words of scripture and defeated the enemy. But Jesus said what about the words He spoke? Does anyone remember? The words that He spoke were the words that He heard His Father saying, and the deeds that He did were what He saw His Father doing.

If there is one person who has received the Holy Spirit and the new birth by Him, and Jesus reigning and ruling in their heart, and they hear His voice and obey because they have His love in them, that is fruit that will remain. Just one like this, just one, is worth many many many who do not know Him, who just believe without having the power of God to base their faith on.

Salvation is life from above, from God. Salvation is being raised up by the power of God from death into the life, the resurrection life, of Jesus. Salvation is God working in us in the very same power that He demonstrated when He raised Jesus from the dead. Salvation has nothing to do with knowing or hearing the words of the bible, and everything to do with hearing the voice of God, and knowing the power of God, and finally, knowing God.

I am afraid that your very own words condemn you Red.

Jesus responded to the devil in this manner in (Mt 4:2,6,7,10)...

IT IS WRITTEN ... IT IS WRITTEN ... IT IS WRITTEN ... IT IS WRITTEN

Did you hear that VW or would you like me to say it again...

IT IS WRITTEN ... IT IS WRITTEN ... IT IS WRITTEN ... IT IS WRITTEN

The plain words of Jesus to the devil...

IT IS WRITTEN ... IT IS WRITTEN ... IT IS WRITTEN ... IT IS WRITTEN

You would think that with the claim that you make as being a NT prophet, that you of all people, would understand the phrase...
IT IS WRITTEN ...

We have other references in the scriptures that testify to...
IT IS WRITTEN ...

Mt 12:31 it is written... my house shall be called a house of prayer

Mt 26:24 the Son of man goeth as it is written...

Mt 26:31 it is written... I will smite the Shepherd and the sheep shall be scattered abroad

Mk 7:6 it is written... This people honor me with their lips but their heart is far from me

Lk 24:46 it is written... that Christ should suffer and be raised on the third day

Jn 8:17 it is written... in our law also that the testimony of two is true

And I could go one and show you that Jesus Christ had no problem confessing what was already written down. Neither did the apostles.

But you VW have a problem with what is written because you do not recognize the authority of what has been written as Christ did and His apostles. You frown upon it and try to discredit those that love the written word and hide it in their heart. They know that the written word reveals Christ and speaks of Him and those words are eternal life to those that believe (Jn 6:63, 1Thes 2:13). Your problem is that you receive the word of God from others as the word of men because you do not believe the objectivity of the written word they have to say. They are not void of the Spirit as you presume, on the contrary, that are inspired by the written word through the Spirit.

When we reject the objectivity of God's word for our subjective impression of what we understand, the Spirit will alway stand and reveal the truth of what is written that has come from God through the words of Christ.

 

[liketotalk]

I would definetly say God is working through you and has been all your life since you acknowledge the fact you have noticed it here and there, that is exactly how he works, we are tempted everyday and minute with evil, it is a constant battle to keep in his graces. Keep your chin up fight the good fight of faith and tell the devil your not backing down from your Christian walk. Also remember the bible says God accepts backsliders.

 

[liketotalk]

awsume post, thank you.

 

[VW]

Jesus said, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning? I have many thing to speak and too judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world."

And again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. And the slave does not remain in the house forever. If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. I know that you are Abraham's offspring, yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak the things which I have seen with My Father, therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father."

And again, "He who believe in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that every who believe in Me may not remain in darkness. And if anyone hears My sayings, and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given me commandment, what to say, and what to speak. And I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore I speak just as the Father has told Me."

And again, "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me, and you will also bear witness also, because you have been with Me from the beginning."

And again, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest parts of the world."

So, how do we know that we are speaking the words of God? Only if we are speaking what we hear from the Spirit. Every word which comes froth from the mouth of God does not fail to do what He sent it to do. Are we mouthpieces of our own minds, our own souls, or are we the mouthpieces of God? Does He speak through us, by the power of His Spirit? If so, then those who hear will be saved, by His words.

Otherwise, all bets are off.

 

[Red33]

The church I went to for many yearsa in my youth left me feeling crushed and in despair.
They continuously preached as to how righteous lives we should live, but lacked true love, mercy and compassion, I am sure in your experiance of churches you have come accrposs some with the same atttitude

But many had Phariuseeical attitudes. I guess you woud feel at home in such churches as when I continuously point out to you according to scripture how such practices are wrong you say nothing in reply.

Why do you not explain why your church lacks REAL power and does not see the signs, wonders and miracles that CONFIRM the true message ids being preached?

Most churches are so far removed from the NT church these days it is not suprising there is seldom seen the power

A Christianity reliasnt on the literal word and human, logical understanding pof that word has left those who follow such an approach virtually impotent where true power is concerned that comes from the TRUE Gospel of grace.

Instead of fault finding at others Red, look inward ask yourself the questions I am posing here if you can, otherwise you will have to settle for a weak Christianity devoid of power, God wants more than that for his followers.

You get challenged with what you believe, you react to it and accuse them of finding fault. You went ballistic when I made a statement that the devil had the power of death (Heb 2:14, Jn 8:44) and could not keep the fleshly body of Christ in the grave for more than three days. You would have thought I was a heretick by the way you reacted. You even started a thread and chided the members of this chat site for not responding. That is insecurity on your part and an imbalance in your emotions as to how you respond to people and the truth.

But maybe you feel you are fine just the way you are

Are you so far removed as you assert about other local churches or do you have the real thing? You are referring to (Mk 16:17-20). You want to use that passage and define every local church as to whether they are from God or not. The two signs that follow is the casting out of devils and speaking in new tongues. Just how often are these signs to follow? There are scores of local assemblies all over the world that don't have any of these signs but they love God and love one another, they walk by faith and they preach the gospel because they were lost and God found them through the gospel.

Do we need a sign in order to believe by faith? Isn't the sign that Christ died and shed His blood the sign we rehearse in the ears of those that believe not? Isn't the great mark and sign of a disciple that we have love one for another that all men may see the love of God, (Jn 13:35)? Keep in mind that loving one another doesn't mean that we compromise the truth with one another (Phil 1:9,Eph 4:25). Signs and wonders are for the Jews and for those that live in unbelief (Mt 12:38-41, 16:1-4). False Christs and false prophets can show great signs and wonders (Mt 24:24). Keep that in mind!

Do you need signs because you live in unbelief, if not, then do not impose them upon the church? If we walk by faith in the word that we have received through preaching and teaching the word and doctrine, we do not need any signs or wonders because we believe in the living God. Jesus said if I be lifted up, as Moses did the brazen serpent on the pole in the wilderness, that he would draw all men unto Himself (Num 21:8,9, Jn 3:14,15, 12:32). This is sign that we lift up before men that they may believe.

 

[Zilla64007]

What law was Abraham bound by?
Circumcision?

then Galatians 5 contradicts Romans 3 because the very same writer says he uphold the law... because there's absolutely NO reason to uphold a law if it no longer is in affect... unless there's something we havent looked at yet.

 

[livingbygrace]

then Galatians 5 contradicts Romans 3 because the very same writer says he uphold the law... because there's absolutely NO reason to uphold a law if it no longer is in affect... unless there's something we havent looked at yet.

You need to understand the message of grace in its entirety that Paul wrote. If it interests you to go over it all I will, but as I have written it out many times I do not wish to again unless you are SINCERELY interested in discussing it

Gal 5 does not contradict Rom 3 you are not understanding what Paul meant in Rom 3:31 in my opinion one of the most important verses in the NT

I'll just make a couple of short points here.

In Rom 3:10-19 Paul spoke of what many refer this passage to as the 'total depravity of man'

In verse 20 he says
Therefore no-one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become concious of sin
Paul then goes on to speak of a righteousness from God apart from law and a justification by faith in Christ apart from observing the law
Paul knew what the charge would be after saying this
We needn't wporry about obediance we can simply break the good laws of God as we are justified by faith in Christ, hence verse 31
Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law
As Paul stated
Obediance comes from faith
Rom 1:5

I will leave it there for now
But just a thought.
Paul said he died to the law so that he could live for Christ, what did he mean?

 

[livingbygrace]

Are you so far removed as you assert about other local churches or do you have the real thing? You are referring to (Mk 16:17-20). You want to use that passage and define every local church as to whether they are from God or not. The two signs that follow is the casting out of devils and speaking in new tongues. Just how often are these signs to follow? There are scores of local assemblies all over the world that don't have any of these signs but they love God and love one another, they walk by faith and they preach the gospel because they were lost and God found them through the gospel.

Do we need a sign in order to believe by faith? Isn't the sign that Christ died and shed His blood the sign we rehearse in the ears of those that believe not? Isn't the great mark and sign of a disciple that we have love one for another that all men may see the love of God, (Jn 13:35)? Keep in mind that loving one another doesn't mean that we compromise the truth with one another (Phil 1:9,Eph 4:25). Signs and wonders are for the Jews and for those that live in unbelief (Mt 12:38-41, 16:1-4). False Christs and false prophets can show great signs and wonders (Mt 24:24). Keep that in mind!

Do you need signs because you live in unbelief, if not, then do not impose them upon the church? If we walk by faith in the word that we have received through preaching and teaching the word and doctrine, we do not need any signs or wonders because we believe in the living God. Jesus said if I be lifted up, as Moses did the brazen serpent on the pole in the wilderness, that he would draw all men unto Himself (Num 21:8,9, Jn 3:14,15, 12:32). This is sign that we lift up before men that they may believe.

I will quote scripture on this, not opinion

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these because I am going to the Father
John 14:11-12

So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders
Acts 14:3

I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God, by what I have said and done-by the power of signs and miracles, through the power of the Spirit
Rom 15:18&19

This salvation which was first announced by the Lord was confirmed to us by those who heard him
God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit
Heb 2:3&4

Please do not query this again with me, I have given you scripture to back up what I am saying

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You need to understand the message of grace in its entirety that Paul wrote. If it interests you to go over it all I will, but as I have written it out many times I do not wish to again unless you are SINCERELY interested in discussing it

Gal 5 does not contradict Rom 3 you are not understanding what Paul meant in Rom 3:31 in my opinion one of the most important verses in the NT

I'll just make a couple of short points here.

In Rom 3:10-19 Paul spoke of what many refer this passage to as the 'total depravity of man'

In verse 20 he says
Therefore no-one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become concious of sin
Paul then goes on to speak of a righteousness from God apart from law and a justification by faith in Christ apart from observing the law
Paul knew what the charge would be after saying this
We needn't wporry about obediance we can simply break the good laws of God as we are justified by faith in Christ, hence verse 31
Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law
As Paul stated
Obediance comes from faith
Rom 1:5

I will leave it there for now
But just a thought.
Paul said he died to the law so that he could live for Christ, what did he mean?

Amen. I wonder why people are so quick to pull out a verse here and there to support their belief, but refuse to look at the whole context of the passage to make sure they are not taking the verse out of context.

 

[Zilla64007]

In Rom 3:10-19 Paul spoke of what many refer this passage to as the 'total depravity of man'

and that right there is where i stop reading. I take it you believe that man is completely depraved to begin with, inherently sinful, and cannot do anything good...

if you say yes, then I take it you're a Calvinist, and if that's the case, then i'll tell you right now, your doctrine is tainted with Manichaeanism that Augustine incorporated when he fought against Pelagius.
I am not a Calvinist, and i will never believe the TULIP doctrine of Calvinism, no matter what.
if I have to label myself, I will be called either a Wesleyan or an Arminian, because at least what Arminus and Wesley taught not only lines up with scripture, but church history...

just because you had a bad experience in a church and got your feelings hurt does not make holiness/righteousness and/or conditional salvation automatically wrong.

 

[livingbygrace]

and that right there is where i stop reading. I take it you believe that man is completely depraved to begin with, inherently sinful, and cannot do anything good...

if you say yes, then I take it you're a Calvinist, and if that's the case, then i'll tell you right now, your doctrine is tainted with Manichaeanism that Augustine incorporated when he fought against Pelagius.
I am not a Calvinist, and i will never believe the TULIP doctrine of Calvinism, no matter what.
if I have to label myself, I will be called either a Wesleyan or an Arminian, because at least what Arminus and Wesley taught not only lines up with scripture, but church history...

just because you had a bad experience in a church and got your feelings hurt does not make holiness/righteousness and/or conditional salvation automatically wrong.

I'm none of those labels, I'm just a Christian by the undeserved mercy and grace of God

Why do you think I believe holiness/righteousness to be wrong?
It is how it is achieved that I was starting to discuss with you

And without Gods grace and mercy and changing power, how would you see natural man and his nature?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm none of those labels, I'm just a Christian by the undeserved mercy and grace of God

Why do you think I believe holiness/righteousness to be wrong?
It is how it is achieved that I was starting to discuss with you

And without Gods grace and mercy and changing power, how would you see natural man and his nature?

lol..these type of responses amaze me. We have to follow men, so we must be one of those. even though we are niether calvanist or arminians,

when do people just want to study the word. instead of following men?

 

[livingbygrace]

lol..these type of responses amaze me. We have to follow men, so we must be one of those. even though we are niether calvanist or arminians,

when do people just want to study the word. instead of following men?

I really don't like denominational tags, Christian is enough for me