Apostasy 101

[Noose]

Aren't you one of the ones that doesn't believe a person is Saved until they die?

I thought it was you.

Maybe its Wall. I get you legalists mixed up sometimes.

My beliefs are so weird if i open up you'll die laughing.

 

[Grandpa]

If you have an intellectual belief in something you know for a certain that it is. There is no changing that. Israel out of Egypt and through the desert physically seen God working miracles, They believed in God. They seen the cloud by day and the fiery pillar by night every day. And the manna every 6th day to mention a few. The had an intellectual belief. Yet time and time again they showed forth fruits that they did not trust Him. They had no faith.

Yes. They still had an intellectual belief in God.

They knew of His Existence.

But they didn't trust in His Goodness.

They were not Saved and were not True Believers.

 

[Grandpa]

My beliefs are so weird if i open up you'll die laughing.

Yeah. I'm not going to go back and see.

Do you believe you are saved now or that no one is saved until they die?

 

[Noose]

Yeah. I'm not going to go back and see.

Do you believe you are saved now or that no one is saved until they die?

Matt 24:13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19
By your patient endurance, you will gain your souls.

 

[lightbearer]

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Believe is state of being. It is where we are at presently.
We believe TO THE saving of the soul. Not that the soul has been saved. We are HIS work in progress. We believe to the saving, this the promise to which the writer speaks of in verse thirty six.

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw (shrinking) back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Verse thirty eight, the just shall live by faith: but if he (the just one living by faith) draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

You can't draw (shrink) back from something unless you are there in the first place.

 

[Grandpa]

Matt 24:13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19
By your patient endurance, you will gain your souls.

You were right...

If a person THINKS that maybe someday they might be saved by trusting in the gospel they can later change their mind about this and decide maybe they won't be. This is an intellectual belief and NOT Salvation.

There are no such persons, you either hear the gospel and believe it or not, you can not hear the gospel and think that someday you might trust it and be saved. When news reach you, you either believe them or not.
Believing and trusting is doing(works) rather than thoughts:

James 1:22Be doers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves.

Now you are arguing with yourself.

Should I leave you alone and see who wins?

I'm rooting for the believe it or not guy but the perseverence guy is pretty stubborn...

 

[lightbearer]

Got things to do, Prayers for you all.

 

[Grandpa]

You can't draw (shrink) back from something unless you are there in the first place.

Sure you can.

You were approaching with this intellectual belief you had. But then your understanding and your work failed you and you drew back.

You were not of them that BELIEVED to the saving of the soul.

 

[Noose]

You were right...

If a person THINKS that maybe someday they might be saved by trusting in the gospel they can later change their mind about this and decide maybe they won't be. This is an intellectual belief and NOT Salvation.

There are no such people and it is impossible to postpone a belief about something. If it is preached, you either receive it or you don't, there's no 'i'll receive later'.
Scriptures tell us severally that we must receive and hold on. this is just one of them:

1 Cor 15: 1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

1. The gospel was already preached to them
2. They had already received it and believed it
3. Only if they hold on will they be saved by this Gospel
4. If they don't hold on, they have believed in vain

Now you are arguing with yourself.

Should I leave you alone and see who wins?

I'm rooting for the believe it or not guy but the perseverence guy is pretty stubborn...

I see harmony, perseverance and holding on is one and the same thing.

 

[lightbearer]

Sure you can.

You were approaching with this intellectual belief you had. But then your understanding and your work failed you and you drew back.

You were not of them that BELIEVED to the saving of the soul.

Verse thirty eight, the just shall live by faith: but if he (WHO? The just one living by faith) draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

 

[Grandpa]

There are no such people and it is impossible to postpone a belief about something. If it is preached, you either receive it or you don't, there's no 'i'll receive later'.
Scriptures tell us severally that we must receive and hold on. this is just one of them:

1 Cor 15: 1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

1. The gospel was already preached to them
2. They had already received it and believed it
3. Only if they hold on will they be saved by this Gospel
4. If they don't hold on, they have believed in vain





I see harmony, perseverance and holding on is one and the same thing.

But you don't believe that Salvation is even possible until after you die.

This is the epitome of an intellectual belief in Salvation and not TRUE Salvation.

This is the epitome of a works based Salvation. It depends on YOUR PERSEVERENCE.

Whereas TRUE Salvation depends on the Faithfulness of God, that What He has Started He will Complete.



This is probably the main difficulty we have when we try to explain Eternal Salvation to someone who believes it is their WORKS that fulfill the requirements of Salvation.

Of course if Salvation is dependent on people it can fail.

But Salvation is dependent on God. And therefore CANNOT Fail.

 

[Chris1975]

But you don't believe that Salvation is even possible until after you die.

This is the epitome of an intellectual belief in Salvation and not TRUE Salvation.

This is the epitome of a works based Salvation. It depends on YOUR PERSEVERENCE.

Whereas TRUE Salvation depends on the Faithfulness of God, that What He has Started He will Complete.



This is probably the main difficulty we have when we try to explain Eternal Salvation to someone who believes it is their WORKS that fulfill the requirements of Salvation.

Of course if Salvation is dependent on people it can fail.

But Salvation is dependent on God. And therefore CANNOT Fail.

Perseverance is part and parce of the Gospel:

Romans 5
5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, [a]we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

 

[Grandpa]

Verse thirty eight, the just shall live by faith: but if he (WHO? The just one living by faith) draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

The just shall live by faith.

Then a different group is described. Those who draw back.

Then the original group is described again. The just who live by faith;
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[Noose]

But you don't believe that Salvation is even possible until after you die.

This is the epitome of an intellectual belief in Salvation and not TRUE Salvation.

This is the epitome of a works based Salvation. It depends on YOUR PERSEVERENCE.

Whereas TRUE Salvation depends on the Faithfulness of God, that What He has Started He will Complete.



This is probably the main difficulty we have when we try to explain Eternal Salvation to someone who believes it is their WORKS that fulfill the requirements of Salvation.

Of course if Salvation is dependent on people it can fail.

But Salvation is dependent on God. And therefore CANNOT Fail.

This thing that you are calling intellectual belief doesn't exist. Belief is a state of the mind and there are only two states; believing in something or not believing in that thing which can also be called disbelief. There's no in between or such a thing as postponed belief which you are trying to call intellectual belief.

Example: A box, someone claims there's an egg in it. I either believe there's an egg in there or not.

How does an intellectual belief work here?

 

[Grandpa]

Perseverance is part and parce of the Gospel:

Romans 5
5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, [a]we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Read verse 5, and I suggest you let that one marinate.

 

[Chris1975]

Read verse 5, and I suggest you let that one marinate.

You denied perseverance. Why do you deny the scriptures?

 

[Judges1318]

Sorry for the confusion, you must have thought that I was answering your question or disagreeing with the premise of your stance. I was not. I am with you.

I thought you were, but I wanted to make sure.

I love Galatians. Since it seems to be the apex of the opposition let's spend some time there shall we.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed INTO Jesus Christ, that we might be justified THROUGH the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified OUT OF Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, THAT I MIGHT LIVE UNTO God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live IN the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. ..... Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; .......for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise out of faith of Jesus Christ might be given to the ones believing. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us INTO Christ, that we might be justified OUT OF faith. But after that faith (Christ's) is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God THROUGH THE FAITH IN (not through faith in but throught the faith in) Christ Jesus. FOR (because) as many of you as have been baptized INTO Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(Gal 2:16-3:29)

I agree, Galatians is where the conflict lies.

 

[Grandpa]

This thing that you are calling intellectual belief doesn't exist. Belief is a state of the mind and there are only two states; believing in something or not believing in that thing which can also be called disbelief. There's no in between or such a thing as postponed belief which you are trying to call intellectual belief.

Example: A box, someone claims there's an egg in it. I either believe there's an egg in there or not.

How does an intellectual belief work here?

An intellectual belief is a theory.

Like the theory of evolution.

Maybe when you were a child you believed in this theory. But when you grew up you saw that the evidence pointed away from evolution and towards creation.

So this intellectual belief you had was changed. You no longer believed or trusted in evolution but in creation.


This is the ONLY kind of belief that can change.


TRUE Salvation goes from this intellectual stage, or theory stage, to the FACTUAL stage. It is no longer a theory about something that may happen at some future time. It is a FACT that HAS HAPPENED.

A person can no longer change their mind about a FACT that has ALREADY Happened.

Once you have seen something you have seen it and you can't un-see. Once you have heard something you have heard it and you can't un-hear.

Its like gravity. You see it every day. It is a fact. You can't stop believing in gravity because you see evidence for it every day. Its this same exact way with Salvation.

 

[Grandpa]

You denied perseverance. Why do you deny the scriptures?

I don't deny perserverance.

I told you to focus on verse 5. How is that denying scripture?

 

[lightbearer]

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

The just shall live by faith.

Then a different group is described. Those who draw back.

Then the original group is described again. The just who live by faith;
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The problem with your interpretation is it defies the Grammar. So either you are right or the writer through the Holy Spirit had bad grammar and could not articulate in a precise manner.

The one drawing back is in the subjunctive mood which is the mood of possibility. It is also in the third person singular. Which according to the rules of grammar would connect the one drawing back to the just one (first person singular) who lives by faith just mentioned.

The just (one) shall live by faith: but if he (WHO? The just one living by faith) draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Sorry but I have to go. You have a nice day Grandpa