Should someone who is saved pray for the salvation of someone who is not saved?

Isaiah263 · Jan 30, 2020

I know as a finite human with a finite mind I just need to look to what God reveals in His Word. I approach this as not "God ordains certain people to Hell." That would contradict His patience and will that none would perish but come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9).

Yet, an omniscient God who knows all future events every single act of all 7+ billion people on the earth (both unregenerate and believers), every single thought, act, will, past, present, future - yet, He weaves everything (evil, good) for His purpose no matter what the human free will does - Please respond with Scripture that would refute this argument. I can't find any.

Since these free acts will come to pass, if they didn't an omniscient God would be wrong. So, wouldn't our free acts be predetermined by God?

That's my best understanding of Predestination.

Chris1975 · Jan 30, 2020

Isaiah263 said:

God is omniscient. He knows everything past, present and future, and the finest detail, thought, action, atomic interaction. There is not a single thing He doesn't know. The has also shown the future (Book of Revelation/Daniel/Zechariah etc) before it happens, but chooses to keep details sufficiently hidden, but also sufficiently revealed, in his wisdom in governing the universe.

He too knows all those who will come to faith in Him (but we don't). He has also vessels for honour and vessels for dishonour in the potters house (but we know not who is who). He allows vessels he has created their FREE WILL, not in that he directs that free will, but rather knows the choices these vessels will make in advance.

He also says the following in Jeremiah1v12 Then the Lord said to me, “You have seen well, for I am [actively] watching over My word to fulfill it.”

Which means what? It means that nothing in the universe can stop the revealed will of God or prophecy from being fulfilled. As such God's intervention into the affairs of man will steer the activities of man collectively such that none of these Words return to Him void

Isaiah 55v11
So will My word be which goes out of My mouth;
It will not return to Me void (useless, without result),
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

Since there is the knowledge that God possesses that is not in our ambit (who are the Elect and who are not), we love all people, pray for all people, and believe that all are candidates for the mercy of God. Who is to say whether or not the unrighteous will repent and believe?

EternalFire · Jan 30, 2020

Isaiah263 said:

Romans 9:10-23 (TLV)

And not only this, but also Rebecca having twins, from one act with our father Isaac. Yet before the sons were even born and had not done anything good or bad—so that God’s purpose and choice might stand not because of works but because of Him who calls—it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For to Moses He says, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the one who wills or the one who strives, but on God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up—to demonstrate My power in you, so My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But who in the world are you, O man, who talks back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” Does the potter have no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor and another for common use? Now what if God, willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath designed for destruction? And what if He did so to make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory?

Jimbone · Jan 30, 2020

LeeLoving said:

That is just the silliest thing I've ever heard. Why are you sitting around trying to rationalize and figure out Gods thoughts? It doesn't matter if we were predestine or not, we are commanded to "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

We are not to figure out how Gods sovereignty works within our free will, but I believe it with all my heart and praise His name through it all, but even that only by His grace and power, and it's ALL for His glory. Do you really think this post even scratched the surface of the ocean of this truth? Be real brother, this isn't something you can just write off like this, but praise God your asking these question and reasoning these things. This is truth your seeking. Actually good thinking though, I never used to think before I was born again, I like it.

John146 · Jan 30, 2020

Chris1975 said:

Do you have Scripture to back this up or what man thinks God must be? Just curious where you are getting your thoughts. Thanks.

John146 · Jan 30, 2020

Predestination has zero to do with salvation! It has everything to do with what God has promised to those who are already saved. Believers are predestined for the adoption which is the redemption of our bodies. We are never predestined for this outside of Christ. Once you are in Christ, your destination is set. You are predestined. It's a future deliverance from your body.

Chris1975 · Jan 30, 2020

John146 said:

Psalm 147v5 Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding is infinite.
1 John 3v20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
Psalm 139v4 For there is not a word on my tongue, But behold, O Lord, You know it altogether.
Matthew 10v30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Isaiah 46v9-10 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

And it goes on and on about His all surpassing knowledge.

Now as to the secrets...

Proverbs 25v2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.
Deuteronomy 29v29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

@John146 : Do you want more?

John146 · Jan 30, 2020

Chris1975 said:

I believe the Lord is perfect in knowledge. If it's knowledge, He knows it. But has He chosen to limit what He knows in the future? Are all future decisions even knowledge before they are made? Yes, He has declared the end from the beginning, the end. Does that mean everything in between? We have the ending. Ever read Revelation? He knew all of this from the beginning because He declared it to be.

Chris1975 · Jan 30, 2020

John146 said:

He knows every hair on my head (and I am not bald) That takes some vast knowledge. Me being one of circa 8 billion. By the time I have finish writing this sentence my hair count may have changed. He knows that too.

John146 · Jan 30, 2020

Chris1975 said:

Yes, the hairs on your head is knowledge to be known by an all knowing God. Everything that is knowledge, he knows it. My question is, are future decisions knowledge before the decision is made? I'll give an example. God told Abraham to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. Did the Lord know Abraham would follow through? Now I know...

Genesis 22
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Chris1975 · Jan 30, 2020

John146 said:

God always knew. Because he made Abram/ Abraham the promises beforehand. Promises which would have been impossible to fulfill unless God knew Abraham's response across the span of time. Abraham's actions (works) confirmed his faith (James). The now I know, does not mean he never knew. He is telling Abraham for Abraham's sake. He is letting Abraham know that He (God knows) that Abraham fears God and is willing to obey him no matter what.

John146 · Jan 30, 2020

Chris1975 said:

Your reading into scripture your private interpretation. Scripture says what it means. God didn’t justify Abraham’s righteousness until Abraham was obedient. When God saw Abraham was going to be obedient, God justified him.

Chris1975 · Jan 30, 2020

John146 said:

Genesis 15v6 6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Genesis 15 happens long before Genesis 22. Abraham was not unjustified during this gap in time.

Justification is by Faith.

John146 · Jan 30, 2020

Chris1975 said:

He was declared righteous in chapter 15, but the fulfillment of this did not come until he was justified in chapter 22.

James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Chris1975 · Jan 30, 2020

John146 said:

So what in your opinion is the practical differences between being declared righteous by God (chapter 15) and fulfillment (chapter 22). What changed? Specifics please.

John146 · Jan 30, 2020

Chris1975 said:

What changed? Abraham was justified through his obedience. His obedience seven chapters later justified him before God to be declared righteous.

John146 · Jan 30, 2020

Chris1975 said:

Does faith require evidence? Hebrews 11:1

Chris1975 · Jan 30, 2020

John146 said:

Of course faith has evidence (a changed life, obedience, good works). No issue with that. But he wasn't justified at the later date. He was justified when he believed. Otherwise Abraham could not be in relationship with God. Justification is through the shedding of blood (Atonement), and accessed by faith. This is peace with God. Unless Abraham was already justified, he could not have the continuing faith to carry on with the potential sacrifice of his son Isaac. His follow through is also justification because it shows his faith is real.

Chris1975 · Jan 30, 2020

Romans 5
5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

tourist · Jan 30, 2020

JaumeJ said:

Me too.

Should someone who is saved pray for the salvation of someone who is not saved?

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