1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-18, WHY do people say that JESUS IS going to bring the dead in CHRIST when HE comes back here, In 1 Thess 4:13-18

[bud62]

Terrible use of the English language!

And your conclusion is wrong...

There is to many things against it in the BIBLE. rapture is a no no.The ones taken in Noah's day was the lost. By JESUS's WORDs.
And when He comes this time also, JESUS says the tares are slain first, which is the lost first, The BIBLE says that there's not even going to be no light in the heavens, The lost could not live here without the sun, So the rapture is not true for many reasons in the BIBLE,
GOD bless as HE sees fit.

 

[bud62]

eh, i don't think that's so. this man, whoever he is, didn't invent the scripture, but hear what is written:

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial ​

which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. ​

(Revelation 3:10)​

​

He says to the church at Philadelphia He will save them from 'the hour of trial' -- Jacob's trouble.
so what is this speaking of? and why isn't the church mentioned in Revelation anywhere after chapter 3?
these ideas are not without basis. they aren't 'invented by a man' -- they're inferred from scripture. if you would argue them, you don't do well to brush it off by stating they're human invention. you need to find their basis in the Word, and find the interpretation.

HE didn't take Jacob out from his trouble, BUT HE went with him through his troubles, SO when trouble comes to HIS CHURCH, HE is not going to take them out of their troubles, But HE will be with them through their troubles, Just like Jacob.
GOD BLESS as HE sees fit

 

[presidente]

Not so ,There is not Going to be a rapture, THERE is a LOT OF BIBLE THAT GO's against IT, Even in the SAME VERSE. IT tells That all that remain GO's to HEAVEN, this means the lost have been slain by the brightness of his coming, Meaning the lost will not be here when the called up happens, Which means that it's HIS second coming not a rapture

Called up OUT of the GROUND, RESURRECTION. IF HE called THE CHURCH UP first THAT WOULD LEAVE the WICKED, END THE WICKED ARE DESTORYED FIRST, THIS MAKES THE BIBLE A LIE, AND GOD A LIER, SO I KNOW THAT IT's NOT SO.
GOD bless as HE sees fit

If you believe the saints are resurrected and the resurrected saints and the saints that are alive and remain are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, that is the rapture.

If you say you do not believe in the rapture, then you are saying you do not believe the saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

Paul speaks of that wicked being destroyed at the brightness of His coming in a passage about the man of sin. You seem to be applying that to all unbelievers.

I do not see two second comings of Christ in the Bible. In a Roman parousia, the official would be met while he is on his way to the destination, and the people would escort him back into the city. That is how I believe the second coming will happen, when Christ returns.

In Acts 1, when Jesus ascended, this happened:
10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Jesus did not go half-way up, come back down to the ground, and go up again. He went up into heaven. He didn't go halfway to heaven and come down.

I believe Jesus is coming back to the earth to rule and reign with his saints.

 

[posthuman]

HE didn't take Jacob out from his trouble, BUT HE went with him through his troubles, SO when trouble comes to HIS CHURCH, HE is not going to take them out of their troubles, But HE will be with them through their troubles, Just like Jacob.
GOD BLESS as HE sees fit

you're right He doesn't take Jacob from his trouble. right now, Jacob is in unbelief & disobedience.
but you are staring right at Jesus Christ telling His church, who does believe, and who does keep His command to persevere, that He is going to spare them from the hour of tribulation - from Jacob's trouble. it's not called 'the church's trouble' -- it's called Jacob's.

tell me what Jesus means in Revelation 3:10 ?

 

[presidente]

eh, i don't think that's so. this man, whoever he is, didn't invent the scripture, but hear what is written:

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial ​

which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. ​

(Revelation 3:10)​

​

He says to the church at Philadelphia He will save them from 'the hour of trial' -- Jacob's trouble.
so what is this speaking of? and why isn't the church mentioned in Revelation anywhere after chapter 3?
these ideas are not without basis. they aren't 'invented by a man' -- they're inferred from scripture. if you would argue them, you don't do well to brush it off by stating they're human invention. you need to find their basis in the Word, and find the interpretation.

Did he promise to save any of the other churches from the hour of trial? The book continues to show saints going through difficult times.

 

[posthuman]

HE is not going to take them out of their troubles

I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world​

- Jesus​

you sure you want to say He isn't going to keep His church from 'the hour of trial' ?

 

[posthuman]

Did he promise to save any of the other churches from the hour of trial? The book continues to show saints going through difficult times.

He tells Thyatira that those who allow the preaching of Jezebel, joining her in her adulteries, He will cause to suffer greatly, unless they repent ((Rev. 2:20-23)). perhaps it is so that He will snatch away the ones who are faithful to Him, and chasten those who are not? i mean, what is Jacob's trouble for? to destroy Jacob or to turn his heart toward God, opening his eyes? the purpose of His patience is that we repent.

i ain't going to be dogmatic about any of these things - i know i'm a fool who doesn't understand them. but i do know that there is support for rapture in many scriptures; it isn't brushed aside so easily.

 

[bud62]

eh, i don't think that's so. this man, whoever he is, didn't invent the scripture, but hear what is written:

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial ​

which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. ​

(Revelation 3:10)​

​

He says to the church at Philadelphia He will save them from 'the hour of trial' -- Jacob's trouble.
so what is this speaking of? and why isn't the church mentioned in Revelation anywhere after chapter 3?
these ideas are not without basis. they aren't 'invented by a man' -- they're inferred from scripture. if you would argue them, you don't do well to brush it off by stating they're human invention. you need to find their basis in the Word, and find the interpretation.

why would HE test The lost, That will will be HIS saints that will be tested, not the lost, The test will be to see if we will stand for JESUS
or will we fall under pressure, To those that have been faithful, JESUS will be with them to help them through the troubles, Even if they haft to give their lives for HIM, Without HIM, with US, we could not make the right choices, So HE's going to be with them to HELP them to make the right choices. GOD bless as HE sees fit

 

[posthuman]

why would HE test The lost, That will will be HIS saints that will be tested, not the lost, The test will be to see if we will stand for JESUS
or will we fall under pressure, To those that have been faithful, JESUS will be with them to help them through the troubles, Even if they haft to give their lives for HIM, Without HIM, with US, we could not make the right choices, So HE's going to be with them to HELP them to make the right choices. GOD bless as HE sees fit

address the verse, please.
Jesus clearly speaks of saving people from "THE hour of trial"

what is that hour of trial? it is a trial coming over the whole earth
what does He mean?

He says He's going to "keep them from it" -- not "help them bear it" like you are saying. what you're saying isn't coming from this passage.

 

[presidente]

He tells Thyatira that those who allow the preaching of Jezebel, joining her in her adulteries, He will cause to suffer greatly, unless they repent ((Rev. 2:20-23)). perhaps it is so that He will snatch away the ones who are faithful to Him, and chasten those who are not? i mean, what is Jacob's trouble for? to destroy Jacob or to turn his heart toward God, opening his eyes? the purpose of His patience is that we repent.

i ain't going to be dogmatic about any of these things - i know i'm a fool who doesn't understand them. but i do know that there is support for rapture in many scriptures; it isn't brushed aside so easily.

These are also literal churches with geographic locations (or drawing the congregation from within a city at least, whether they always met in the same place or not.) The letters are literal letters.

If we look at Paul's writings, he says nothing about Jesus coming back twice. At the parousia, the rapture occurs in I Thessalonians 4. At the parousia, that wicked is destroyed in II Thessalonians 2.

In II Thessalonians 1, the church is here when Jesus returns executing vengence on them that know not God.

 

[posthuman]

These are also literal churches with geographic locations (or drawing the congregation from within a city at least, whether they always met in the same place or not.) The letters are literal letters.

If we look at Paul's writings, he says nothing about Jesus coming back twice. At the parousia, the rapture occurs in I Thessalonians 4. At the parousia, that wicked is destroyed in II Thessalonians 2.

In II Thessalonians 1, the church is here when Jesus returns executing vengence on them that know not God.

there are basically 3 ways people interpret Revelation 1-3, the 7 letters:

1. these are 7 churches that existed a couple thousand years ago, and messages specifically to them with no direct bearing on us today except to serve as examples.
2. yes they are historical churches, but primarily these are 7 'church ages' describing the overall state of the church in specific time periods.
3. yes they are historical churches, but primarily these are 7 types of the church, all occurring simultaneously, even in the same congregation - perhaps more than one being descriptive of the things in the heart of an individual believer.

i lean to the third interpretation. i think i could find 7 congregations today that each exemplify one of the 7 churches described here. i could find 7 individual believers who individually fit them.

 

[garee]

Correct. John 14:1-3 confirms Jesus will take us back to the Father's house at the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

On the other hand, in a completely separate event called the second coming, we are coming back to earth, this can be seen in the book of Revelation where Jesus returns with His saints in white robes on horses TO the earth.

Prove me wrong.

To which earth the one that is no longer here under the sun.

 

[garee]

There is not going to be no rapture

Every time a believer dies and leaves their body .Their new spirt is resurrected .

 

[posthuman]

I've never understood this argument. The letters were written to 7 literal churches that existed 2000 years ago, how do you turn that into "the body of Christ" at the end of time?

by interpreting it via method (2) or method (3) in post #91 just above this ↑

only if you have the method (1) interpretation do you see Revelation 1-3 as largely meaningless to us today, other than a kind of history lesson. the other two broad interpretative schemes allows it to be directly speaking to us -- with (2) only whichever 'age' you decide we are in today is directly relevant, and with (3) it all has direct relevance to the believer, no matter what period of history the believer lives in.

what i mean by relevance -- direct if He is literally saying things that bear on us personally, right now. indirect if this is bearing on someone else a thousand years ago, but remains useful as an example. none of it is strictly irrelevant in any of the interpretive schemes, only possibly so if you take a rather extreme view with method (1)

 

[posthuman]

Every time a believer dies and leaves their body .Their new spirt is resurrected .

resurrected? i don't think that's the right word.

the spirit in me doesn't die when my body does: it returns to the One who gave it ((Eccl. 12:7, for example)).
death is certainly not cessation of existence - especially not mere death of the flesh. that's nothing more than a vehicle of dust dissembling back to dust.

i see how you can liken that to 'rapture' good point

 

[bud62]

I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world​

- Jesus​

you sure you want to say He isn't going to keep His church from 'the hour of trial' ?

There is many ways for HIM to keep the CHURCH from that hour, without taking the CHURCH out, He didn't haft to take the Jews out of Egypt, To keep the plagues from hurting the Jews, But HE still didn't let the plagues hurt them, Besides Do you think that we are better than HIS disciple that laid their lives down for JESUS, OR better then the reformer who also give their lives for JESUS, He even says that there is going to be more after the reformers that will die for HIS name sake, And if we die for JESUS's, It should a honor for us to die for HIM But He still would haft to HELP US through that to be able to give our lives for HIM, DO you think that the disciples give their lives for JESUS without JESUS giving them the strength to give their lives, I can tell you JESUS had to give them the strength, to give their lives. So HE did keep them from that hour by not letting them fall, even thou they give their lives. Praise GOD For the strength we can have through HIS spirit. By HIS power we won't fall, even thou we mite haft to give our lives also, it will take HIS power to deliver us.
GOD bless as HE sees fit.

 

[garee]

There is to many things against it in the BIBLE. rapture is a no no.The ones taken in Noah's day was the lost. By JESUS's WORDs.
And when He comes this time also, JESUS says the tares are slain first, which is the lost first, The BIBLE says that there's not even going to be no light in the heavens, The lost could not live here without the sun, So the rapture is not true for many reasons in the BIBLE,
GOD bless as HE sees fit.

The "rapture" a newer name for "resurrection or lifted up" today is the two stage work of God on this side of the reformation .Three stage on the other side the in respect to the tens of thousands of Old testament saint awaiting the demonstration . Yhere graves were opened when Christ said it is finished and they were released form the corruptipted earth or dark abode of death and set in the incorruptible new heavens and earth. You could say dead a sleep.

First our new born again spirits when a believer passes from under the Sun. Then on the last day all together including those brining the gospel on earth they arise(resurrect, rapture) to receive their new incorruptible bodies

The unsaved do not rise. The have no new born again spirit.

 

[garee]

resurrected? i don't think that's the right word.

the spirit in me doesn't die when my body does: it returns to the One who gave it ((Eccl. 12:7, for example)).
death is certainly not cessation of existence - especially not mere death of the flesh. that's nothing more than a vehicle of dust dissembling back to dust.

i see how you can liken that to 'rapture' good point

I would agree death is certainly not cessation of existence for a believer .That is for those who believe not.

 

[posthuman]

There is many ways for HIM to keep the CHURCH from that hour, without taking the CHURCH out, He didn't haft to take the Jews out of Egypt, To keep the plagues from hurting the Jews, But HE still didn't let the plagues hurt them, Besides Do you think that we are better than HIS disciple that laid their lives down for JESUS, OR better then the reformer who also give their lives for JESUS, He even says that there is going to be more after the reformers that will die for HIS name sake, And if we die for JESUS's, It should a honor for us to die for HIM But He still would haft to HELP US through that to be able to give our lives for HIM, DO you think that the disciples give their lives for JESUS without JESUS giving them the strength to give their lives, I can tell you JESUS had to give them the strength, to give their lives. So HE did keep them from that hour by not letting them fall, even thou they give their lives. Praise GOD For the strength we can have through HIS spirit. By HIS power we won't fall, even thou we mite haft to give our lives also, it will take HIS power to deliver us.
GOD bless as HE sees fit.

did He leave Lot in Sodom or did His angel take him by the hand and remove him from the destruction to come?
the fact is that in Revelation 3:10 He says He's going to keep some group of faithful believers from something that's going to happen to the whole earth. pretty straightforward that they're not going to be counted among "those who dwell on the earth" at that time.

 

[posthuman]

we should understand that all over the gospels, in the teachings of Christ, there is the imagery of the Hebrew betrothal & wedding ceremony. this is described in usually 12 steps, sometimes condensed to 7. part of it is the snatching away of the bride at a day and hour that is set by the father of the groom & isn't made public - traditionally if asked about the time, the groom replies 'only the father knows'

rapture corresponds to the snatching away of the bride. it is the parable of the 10 virgins, and the oil. all over in the epistles the mystery of Christ & the church is spoken of in terms of marriage of us to Him; all over Revelation, too: the wife of the Lamb, the wedding feast of the Lamb. it's something we ought to be aware of, IMO