Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
Well then you must believe salvation can be lost if that is how you understand James.
John is contrasting the spiritual nature with the flesh nature.
I hold to all five points of the TULIP, so no, I do not believe salvation can be lost.

Faith is what saves, we both agree here. But, faith w/o works is dead. Our works show others who we are working for.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
I hold to all five points of the TULIP, so no, I do not believe salvation can be lost.

Faith is what saves, we both agree here. But, faith w/o works is dead. Our works show others who we are working for.
When properly understood James is speaking about a faith that is separated from works, a faith that is not being utilized.

That faith is there but not being manifested outward...faith cannot be seen without works.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
It absolutely does not.
Antinomianism? I preach grace not law.

Tell me about the person who has many works can explain the Gospel well and has never had a conversion experience (born from above) how do they fit into your works must accompany/prove salvation view.
He must preach the prodigal son has lost salvation or is in a lost state while in a prodigal worldly state in which he bears no fruits
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Amen and Amen. We must never become fools and throw it away!
Throw what away?

are you stronger than God that you can rip the gift from his hands and toss it? Where can you God that God is not their?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
After reading page 6405 I have concluded that two or three individuals would have Samson, the Corinthian fornicator, those who have works of wood, hay, and stubble, and ALL THAT DO NOT WORK BUT BELIEVE cooking in hell........gotta love the disciples of Calvin.....!!
Samson, the prodogal and many others

all the while, the religious do Gooder, that does all these works in Jesus name is heaven bound, even though Jesus will declair he never knew them
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Antinomianism is to preach lawlessness which is the antithesis of a person under grace.

By the way, aren’t you “undergrace” with a new moniker?

What you “preach” isn’t grace but antinomianism. In the past you were against evidence of conversion. That is a telltale, dangerous, and unbiblical stance. Do you still embrace that error?

Your latter scenario is non sequitur. You’ve drawn a caricature of a person having many works yet isn’t converted. That isn’t my caricature or scenario, it’s yours, you invented it so the burden of proof is on you. I don’t believe in such a person, but obviously you do.

Lastly, it’s not “my” works must accompany salvation view, it is God’s. Evidence of conversion is biblical.
Now you bear false witness

your a trip man. Have not changed one bit
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
You're the only one throwing stones, calling names. I know this man personally, he is a loving brother, full of grace and humility. His church isn't hypocritical, yet you're implying it is. His wife received bad news today concerning her health. We are in prayer over them here. Do you have some more mud to sling? I'll bet you do and will wait to see it and watch those who like your response.
you need to stop slinging before you judge others.

how many times have we gone over this the past few years? Yet you still do the same stuff?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
It is the issue yet in the past you've denied its necessity. That is solemn to consider.

If conversion has taken place there will be evidence. There is no issue with stating conversion hasn't taken place if there is no evidence. In fact, it is biblical. There is no conversion without proof. Show us all with Scripture a person who was converted but had no evidence.

For the record 1 John is all about evidence. Or not.
If it’s a necessity, the. We are saved by works

well done
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Faith w/o works is dead. That's the theme of the letter of James. And w/o faith 1) no one is saved, and 2) no one can please God. Works are proof of conversion, not the cause of it.

Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.[Matthew 5:16]

If we are saved, we have the Light within us that shows the world we have been chosen out of the world. This is proof of conversion by good works. In Matthew 25, what did the Christ say ppl will be judged by? Their amount of faith? No. How much grace was in their life? No. Works? Yahtzee!

Now, I am not promoting a works based salvation, but a saving faith produces good works. Which goes right back to Matthew 5:16.

"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”[John 13:35]

Here is another example of how we can see evidence of conversion. By loving each other. And if we truly love one another, if we see another member sin, the most unloving thing to do is do nothing. And I have been guilty of this as well.

Then read through all five chapters of 1 John. He was a big believer in there being evidence of salvation in the life of the saved.
You have to remember though

james did not say I will show my faith by my works, let THEM prove their faith by theirs

he spoke to individuals. You show your faith by your works.

it was to test ones own faith not to make people fruit inspectors

the Prodigal son had no works, was he saved?

ps, if it’s true about your wife, you have my prayers bro
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I hold to all five points of the TULIP, so no, I do not believe salvation can be lost.

Faith is what saves, we both agree here. But, faith w/o works is dead. Our works show others who we are working for.
many people work yet have never met God

many prodigals are not working, yet are known by God

using fruit to determine who is saved and who is not is dangerous, you could be encouraging a lost soul, and judging a saved soul who needs restored,

this is the problem I have with It, and why I left the church I grew up in.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
When properly understood James is speaking about a faith that is separated from works, a faith that is not being utilized.

That faith is there but not being manifested outward...faith cannot be seen without works.
James was talking to hearers only not doers.

they also were evidently going to church and must have had some form of leadership, seems they were acting as ushers who were seating people. And showing favoritism

i think we forget that aspect,
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
354
63
After reading page 6405 I have concluded that two or three individuals would have Samson, the Corinthian fornicator, those who have works of wood, hay, and stubble, and ALL THAT DO NOT WORK BUT BELIEVE cooking in hell........gotta love the disciples of Calvin.....!!
Hmm.... I was gonna pretend to be all indignant, but I don't want to spend the entire day backing out of something I never really meant in the first place because nobody saw the humor in it.:-|
 
Nov 24, 2019
395
196
43
Virginia
www.youtube.com
It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!
New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Yes, thank God, Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed! We eat His flesh and drink His blood, proclaiming His death until He returns, as it is written. We do this as oft as we eat of it, in remembrance of Him. "Go in to all the nations and make disciples of all men, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." We apply the blood to our houses, our bodies, and the destroying angel passes over us.

And, as it is written, "Baptism now saves [us.] Not the removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clean conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." We get in to the sheepfold just as Cornelius' house did. We pass through the Red Sea, joined with Christ in death and through His death and resurrection, He defeated our foes and separated us from them. Praise the Lord! Victory in Jesus indeed. And, according to the Scriptures, He came to baptize us with His Spirit. We receive the pillar of fire/cloud: our bodies are living sacrifices. "The wind blows wherever it pleases, you hear the sound of it but cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." It is the Good News of the Kingdom of God and Jesus has become our King! He purchased us and as sons of God, we are being led by the Spirit of God. As His sheep, we hear His voice and we follow Him today. His command is that we abide in Him and in His love. If we abide in Him, we walk as Jesus did, 1 John 2:6, and He confessed that He did nothing on His own initiative. That's what it is to be a part of His body - He makes the decisions: He is Head over ALL things for us. Jesus Christ is Lord.

We see the tragic results of a different gospel preached in this land. We are supposed to be one as the Father and the Son are one so that the world would believe the Father sent the Son. We see the breakdown of the family as well. The husband is a type of Christ, the wife a type of the Church. As "believers" generally don't know Jesus (which is what eternal life is, He said) and don't know how they are to relate in submission to Him, so also the wives and husbands can't relate properly to one another. In the world and not of it is to be our rule, but that's not how it has turned out thus far. There are wonderful exceptions to be sure but by in large, the salt has lost its savor and that is why the world is rotting.

Are you out of Egypt today or is "Pharaoh" still dominating you? Have you been through the water? Have you received the pillar of fire and cloud? Are you walking by your soul (what you want, think and feel) or by the Holy Spirit? We are to be the people of the Way, not Baptists, Calvinists, Lutherans, Methodists... its insanity. Believers in Jesus Christ are called a people of "the Way" twice as many times in the New Testament as they are Christians! The Way pertains to being under the government of God which is in the Holy Spirit. The Bible is our Constitution, as it were. The Church was at its most dynamic state when no seminary or church building existed. No shepherd/overseer/elder was called "Pastor Mike" or "Pastor Joe". Jesus warned us against using such prideful titles. We are all brothers. If people can't be trusted in this minor thing, the cannot be trusted in the major things... and so it is.

Rebuild Jesus' Church? Yes, these ancient ruins badly need to be rebuilt and the glory needs to return so that His ways may be known on earth; His salvation among all mankind.
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,719
113
He needs to learn proper grammar and put a comma between the words 'stone' and 'pharisee'. It should be "You that are without sin cast the first stone, Pharisee!"

It makes all the difference. Its like saying "Let's eat grandma" and "Let's eat, grandma!" All the difference in the world. :):D
Lol! I laugh when I see all these callow souls in here ganging up on others, not reading what they really said, not accepting refutation, attacking and libeling others daily, showing themselves as antinomians, all day long. Then when and if they even attend church they get to pretend they’re loving gracious “Christians” and put on their act. Then after church they return to their true selves, malicious, angry, haters of the brothers, unsound in life and doctrine.
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
354
63
Hhhh
Lol! I laugh when I see all these callow souls in here ganging up on others, not reading what they really said, not accepting refutation, attacking and libeling others daily, showing themselves as antinomians, all day long. Then when and if they even attend church they get to pretend they’re loving gracious “Christians” and put on their act. Then after church they return to their true selves, malicious, angry, haters of the brothers, unsound in life and doctrine.
You laugh because.... You enjoy seeing the condemnation of others?

Mind you this is a question, but it's the only conclusion I can draw.
 

Tellion

Junior Member
Jan 8, 2003
279
354
63
Lol! I laugh when I see all these callow souls in here ganging up on others, not reading what they really said, not accepting refutation, attacking and libeling others daily, showing themselves as antinomians, all day long. Then when and if they even attend church they get to pretend they’re loving gracious “Christians” and put on their act. Then after church they return to their true selves, malicious, angry, haters of the brothers, unsound in life and doctrine.
You are not kind nor humble. The works you so proudly speak of are nothing but show. You take insult far too easily, and react to it with far too much pride. Then you wonder why nobody takes you seriously.