Are you a Trinitarian, and if so, can you defend the doctrine?

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Are you a Trinitarian, and can you defend the doctrine?

  • Yes, I am a Trinitarian, and I can defend the doctrine.

    Votes: 37 63.8%
  • Yes, I am a Trinitarian, but I cannot defend the doctrine.

    Votes: 2 3.4%
  • No, I deny the doctrine of the Trinity.

    Votes: 16 27.6%
  • I don't know if the Trinity is true or false.

    Votes: 3 5.2%

  • Total voters
    58

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Oh it does! His nature is declared in heaven.
One -Holy Holy Holy God Almighty.


Oneness is a natural position.
Trinity is supernatural. That's why it doesn't make sense to the mind.
God's Love doesn't make sense to the mind either. Why should The Most High God love lowly creatures like us enough to DIE for us?

Are you admitting that Trinity doesn't make sense at least to human beings? If so, i'm in agreement but i'm sure God explains Himself knowing very well that we can understand or at least He gives us the understanding. What's the point of explaining when you know very well the recipient is never going to understand.

Isaiah's Vision of the Lord
In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called to another and said:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory!”

(ESV)


Revelation 4
The Throne in Heaven
4 After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne. 3 And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and round the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald. 4 Round the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God, 6 and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal.


And round the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind: 7 the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like an eagle in flight. 8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to say,

“Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!”

(ESV)
Yes, these are visions that were seen but the three Holies do not necessarily mean three persons.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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Are you admitting that Trinity doesn't make sense at least to human beings? If so, i'm in agreement but i'm sure God explains Himself knowing very well that we can understand or at least He gives us the understanding. What's the point of explaining when you know very well the recipient is never going to understand.



Yes, these are visions that were seen but the three Holies do not necessarily mean three persons.
I understand.
You're being stubborn. ;)
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
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I understand.
You're being stubborn. ;)
Then why is it so difficult for you or anyone to explain how three distinct persons can be one being?

Example, the baptism event; Jesus stood in the water as one person, the Father seem to be distinct from Jesus as He spoke from heaven and the holy spirit also seem to be distinct as He descended in the form of a dove. Using this scenario, Is it possible to explain why you think they are one God and not three Gods.

Or are you being forced to claim they are one because of some verses in the OT that says God is one.
 
Apr 15, 2017
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Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

The image of God is the image of Christ which Adam was created after the image of Christ an innocent nature in flesh.

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

God calls things that have not happened yet as though they already happened for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

Which all the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The word of God is God revealing Himself by words written in a book and the Word of God is God revealing Himself to the Jews by a visible manifestation in flesh which Jesus is God with us.

In the beginning was the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and that plan was with God before He laid down the foundation of the earth, and that plan was God manifest in the flesh.
All things were created with the plan of God coming in flesh, and without that plan God would of not created anything that He created for Jesus is the reason why creation is successful eternal life and to judge angels and people.

Jesus is the beginning of creation and the firstborn of the creatures although He was not born until 4000 years later for God calls things that have not happened yet as though they already happened and Jesus is the reason creation is successful.

The image of God is the image of Christ which Adam was made in the image of Christ.

God had the plan to come in the future in flesh before He created anything and created Adam in the image that He would show up in the future an innocent nature in flesh.

So the let us make man in our image has to include the man Christ Jesus for He is part of that image and Adam was made in the image of Christ.

So the let us make man in our image does not mean it is a trinity but it is a prophetic statement to the coming Son of God, God and the man Christ Jesus.

Let us make man in our image is God and the man Christ Jesus for Adam was made in the image of God which is the image of Christ and Adam was made in the image of Christ.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
Oneness is a natural position but triunness is a forced position; you encounter verses where God ascribes plurality to Himself and those that ascribe God's attributes to the Father, the Son and the holy spirit and are still faced with verses that affirm God's oneness, so you are forced to explain. Trinity happened to be one of the explanations but don't say the bible teaches trinity (3 persons in 1 being), it doesn't.
Amen there Noose. You see, this is the kind of thing that comes up when we produce labels to define an infinite God with our finite minds. I feel that a label as "person" does not apply to God, even though Christ did become one. Jesus suggested He was separate from the heavenly Father and that the Father was greater than He was (see John 14:28).

When all is said and done, we don't need to define God with our little pea brains because we can't fathom what being everywhere at once is like. We can say our Savior came from our heavenly Father and He was and is fully God. We can't separate the Holy Spirit from Christ or the Father. That very fact, the presence of the Holy Spirit, is what make them God. So, even Oneness believers, that acknowledge Christ as in the Godhead, can be saved by that alone.

1 John 5:12 "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

So, we don't need to define ourselves oneness or trinity for salvation.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Amen there Noose. You see, this is the kind of thing that comes up when we produce labels to define an infinite God with our finite minds. I feel that a label as "person" does not apply to God, even though Christ did become one. Jesus suggested He was separate from the heavenly Father and that the Father was greater than He was (see John 14:28).

When all is said and done, we don't need to define God with our little pea brains because we can't fathom what being everywhere at once is like. We can say our Savior came from our heavenly Father and He was and is fully God. We can't separate the Holy Spirit from Christ or the Father. That very fact, the presence of the Holy Spirit, is what make them God. So, even Oneness believers, that acknowledge Christ as in the Godhead, can be saved by that alone.

1 John 5:12 "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

So, we don't need to define ourselves oneness or trinity for salvation.
We don't need to describe or define God other than acknowledge He is God, even one of His titles is 'He is what He is'
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
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Then why is it so difficult for you or anyone to explain how three distinct persons can be one being?

Example, the baptism event; Jesus stood in the water as one person, the Father seem to be distinct from Jesus as He spoke from heaven and the holy spirit also seem to be distinct as He descended in the form of a dove. Using this scenario, Is it possible to explain why you think they are one God and not three Gods.

Or are you being forced to claim they are one because of some verses in the OT that says God is one.
You have two Lords ? Jesus says He is ''I AM''
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,386
5,725
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Then why is it so difficult for you or anyone to explain how three distinct persons can be one being?

Example, the baptism event; Jesus stood in the water as one person, the Father seem to be distinct from Jesus as He spoke from heaven and the holy spirit also seem to be distinct as He descended in the form of a dove. Using this scenario, Is it possible to explain why you think they are one God and not three Gods.

Or are you being forced to claim they are one because of some verses in the OT that says God is one.
It has been explained to you time and again in various ways by many different people.
I don't think you are unable to grasp it or to see it in scripture. I think you are deliberately resisting. There is something about the idea of "Trinity" you just don't like. You don't WANT trinity to be true.
Perhaps it might be best to stop thinking about it? God will give you revelation when the time is right if you allow him.


Look at these things



You're a human with with language, the ability to have relationship with others, eyesight, hearing, a sense of smell, problem-solving intelligence, the propensity for rational thought, etc etc.
Just how much sense would you expect your existence to make to a one-celled organism?

Isaiah 55:9 (NIV)
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts. "
 

Alertandawake

Senior Member
Aug 20, 2017
436
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You have two Lords ? Jesus says He is ''I AM''
And Jesus also acknowledges that the Father is the only true God. And he also acknowledges when he spoke to Mary in
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

These blunt statements alone, Jesus made it perfectly clear he has a God. So why is it do you trinitarians continuously reject the fact that Jesus admitted he has a God. Now to paraphrase "I am going to My God and your God". As soon as someone makes this statement, said person is acknowledging he/she has a God.

But you trinitarians will never accept the Father is the only true God. The reason I say this, is because the minute you do accept this fact, you must also accept that Jesus is not God, and at the same time admit Jesus has a God.

But for some reason, when looking at John 17.3, even though Jesus made it perfectly clear the Father is the only true God, for some reason you guys either accept that as meaning The Father, Son, Holy Spirit is the only true God, or you accept that Jesus is God.

Now since it is clear in the bible Jesus did the will of God, that means Jesus was obeying orders.

It is you trinitarians that reject what Jesus said. Jesus made it perfectly clear he has a God.

I cannot understand why mainstream Christianity (trinitarian believers) cannot accept this.

What is interesting that when comparing the three Abrahamic religions, Judaism Christianity and Islam, Judaism and Islam are strictly monotheistic. One meaning One. There is a small minority of Unitarian Christianity that is also strictly monotheistic,and Jehovah Witness as well is strictly monotheistic. I know some Jehovah's Witness people that I sometimes talk to, this is how I know this. But as for mainstream Christianity (trinitarians ) they are the only ones of the group that cannot accept God is One.

In Deut 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" It does not say God is divided into three people, and it does not say God is one and yet three. This is what it says "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD"
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
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And Jesus also acknowledges that the Father is the only true God. And he also acknowledges when he spoke to Mary in
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

These blunt statements alone, Jesus made it perfectly clear he has a God. So why is it do you trinitarians continuously reject the fact that Jesus admitted he has a God. Now to paraphrase "I am going to My God and your God". As soon as someone makes this statement, said person is acknowledging he/she has a God.

But you trinitarians will never accept the Father is the only true God. The reason I say this, is because the minute you do accept this fact, you must also accept that Jesus is not God, and at the same time admit Jesus has a God.

But for some reason, when looking at John 17.3, even though Jesus made it perfectly clear the Father is the only true God, for some reason you guys either accept that as meaning The Father, Son, Holy Spirit is the only true God, or you accept that Jesus is God.

Now since it is clear in the bible Jesus did the will of God, that means Jesus was obeying orders.

It is you trinitarians that reject what Jesus said. Jesus made it perfectly clear he has a God.

I cannot understand why mainstream Christianity (trinitarian believers) cannot accept this.

What is interesting that when comparing the three Abrahamic religions, Judaism Christianity and Islam, Judaism and Islam are strictly monotheistic. One meaning One. There is a small minority of Unitarian Christianity that is also strictly monotheistic,and Jehovah Witness as well is strictly monotheistic. I know some Jehovah's Witness people that I sometimes talk to, this is how I know this. But as for mainstream Christianity (trinitarians ) they are the only ones of the group that cannot accept God is One.

In Deut 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" It does not say God is divided into three people, and it does not say God is one and yet three. This is what it says "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD"
The Father is the one true God and so is Jesus the same one God .. I'm sorry you can't understand ..
 

Alertandawake

Senior Member
Aug 20, 2017
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The Father is the one true God and so is Jesus the same one God .. I'm sorry you can't understand ..
Once again, when Jesus himself admitted "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. " It is clear that Jesus has a God.

How can you say Jesus is the same one God, when Jesus made it perfectly clear that he has a God.

The thing is you trinitarians refuse to accept Jesus has a God.
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
2,309
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Once again, when Jesus himself admitted "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. " It is clear that Jesus has a God.

How can you say Jesus is the same one God, when Jesus made it perfectly clear that he has a God.

The thing is you trinitarians refuse to accept Jesus has a God.
I don't see how anyone could deny Jesus is God, Jesus is the Word become flesh .. If you teach that Jesus is not God come in the flesh you teach a different Jesus and are an anti-Christ as far as I'm concerned ..
 

Alertandawake

Senior Member
Aug 20, 2017
436
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I don't see how anyone could deny Jesus is God, Jesus is the Word become flesh .. If you teach that Jesus is not God come in the flesh you teach a different Jesus and are an anti-Christ as far as I'm concerned ..
It is you trinitarians that have the spirit of antichrist. And I will explain why I say this.

You clearly cannot accept the fact that Jesus said "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. " This statement alone is enough to say Jesus has a God. What part of "my Father" and "my God" are you unable to comprehend?

Jesus admitted he has a God, but you trinitarians say the opposite, you say Jesus is God. Jesus admitted the Father is the only true God, and you trinitarians say the opposite, you say Jesus is God. By saying Jesus (the Son) is God , you deny the Father is the only true God, and you also deny what Jesus said. Jesus admitted the Father is the only true God. Jesus did not say the Son is the only true God and he did not say the Father and Son is the only true God.

It is you trinitarians who teach a different Jesus. Jesus admitted the Father is greater, but trinitarians say Jesus is God and/or Jesus is equal to God. Jesus did the will of God, Jesus prayed to God, yet you trinitarians say Jesus is God. It is you trinitarians who teach a different Jesus.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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From my research paper on "Is God a person?"

God as person: Used of humans to denote a living being with the capacity for freedom, consciousness and relationships, of God as similarly, yet pre-eminently personal; and of the three members of the Trinity. When referring to the triune personhood of God, person does not have any similarity to the contemporary psychological understanding, nor does it connote three separate Gods. Instead the trinitarian persons are relational in their personhood.

“God as person” is believed by many Christians to be a statement naturally flows out of the biblical witness and capsulizes an important aspect of the God who has disclosed himself to us. Stanley Grenz also notes that “the triune God enters into a person-to-person relationship with his creatures, that will never be dissolved.[1]

If God is a person, then it is possible to enter into a personal relationship with God? Human personal relationships are declared to be appropriate analogies or models for our relationship with God. Paul’s use of the image of reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:18-19) is important, as it implies an analogy between the reconciliation of two estranged people, and of sinful human beings to God.[2]

Edmund Fortman declares one definition of the Trinity is “the personalities of the divine persons really consist in their relationship with one another.”[3]This definition below by M. Schmaus, encapsulates these concepts, and gives us a greater understanding of the personhood of the triune God.

"The life and being of God are of such abundance, so overflowing with the ability to know and love, that it cannot creatively display itself in the living, knowing and loving of a single person. It requires a threefold ego. Thus, the tri-personality of God is a sign of life at its highest and richest potential …three persons use God’s power, life-potential of knowing and loving to the full. There is no impersonal zone in God, but rather, in the sphere of divine being, existence, life, knowledge and will are taken to the highest peak in personal existence…The three divine persons exist in in closest relationship with one another."[4]

While there can be no doubt God as the sovereign Lord in in control, God’s Lordship is best defined as “the freedom of God’s grace to love creation and grant it creaturely freedom.”[5] As Christians, “we acknowledge that God is totally beyond our control. God is free. And he is also the source of our relative human freedom. Consequently, we speak of God as a person."

God is “in the horizon of freedom and defines him as perfect freedom…to call God a person is to say that God is the subsistent being, which is freedom in love. This definition brings us back to Scripture, and ‘God is love’ (1 John 4, 8, 16).”[6] Barth defines this further as “God’s being as He who lives and loves is being in freedom.[7]

From notes on the Immanent and Economic Trinity on God's being and relationships! (Different from his person!)

In classical theology, knowing God concerns God’s relationships both within the Trinity (known as the immanent Trinity) and also with us and all of creation, (the economic or “working” Trinity). This revelation of God having relationships is the basis of evangelical Christianity today. However, it is also necessary to explicitly explain and demonstrate that in the doctrine of grace, for example, that the true and authentic concept of grace interprets grace, and thus salvation history. Grace should not be reduced to a purely mental relation of the one God to the elected creature, nor to a relation, merely “appropriated” to the other divine persons.[8] Jesus is not simply God in general, but the Son. The second divine person, God’s Logos, is man, and only he is man. Neither of the two other members of the Trinity can be Jesus, only the Logos. (John 1:1) The three persons are not interchangeable.

Karl Rahner articulates that he is not merely speaking of something “about” the person of Jesus, but the fact that something has occurred “outside” the intra-divine life in the world itself, something which is not a mere effect of the efficient causality of the triune God acting as one in the world, but something which belongs to the Logos alone, which is the history of one divine person, in contrast to the other divine persons.[9] He concludes by stating that no adequate distinction can be made between the doctrine of the Trinity, and the doctrine of the economy of salvation.[10]

Rahner observed that Christians were “in their practical life, almost mere monotheists,”[11]he challenged this view by presenting his axiom in his book, The Trinity, in 1967. His goal was to “recover the vitality and relevance of the Christian faith.”[12]Further, his “overall theological concern in his trinitarian writings was to re-establish he unifying doctrines of grace, Christology, soteriology, pneumatology, and eschatology, and therefore a mysterious reality that lies at the very heart of the Christian faith.”[13]

Rahner claims that rather than the Trinity existing in “splendid isolation,”[14] he hopes that through his dogmatic treatise, the Trinity will “instead resume its place as a unifying doctrinal bridge for the entire Christian Faith.”[15]Thus, Rahner’s basis thesis:

‘establishes the connection between various dogmatic treatises’ and ‘which presents the Trinity as a mystery of salvation’ is, ‘the economic’ Trinity is the ‘immanent’ Trinity and the ‘immanent’ Trinity is the ‘economic” Trinity.’ (The economic Trinity refers to God’s action and presence in the economy of salvation (‘oikonomia,’ οίκονομία), or God ad nos (‘God-for-us’), whilst the immanent Trinity refers to the mysterious existence together of the three divine persons in their eternal life, or God’s life in se (‘theologia’, θεολογία).Rahner has ‘identified’ the economic and immanent Trinity, and this identification is, for him, ‘axiomatic’, his basic axiom (‘Grundaxiom’).”[16]

Continued

Limited References (For more details on publisher, etc, send me a pm)
[1] Theology for the Family of God, Grenz, 1994, 83.
[2] Christian Theology: An Introduction McGrath, 245.
[3] Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, 294
[4]Ibid, 297.
[5] Grenz, 1994, 85.
[6] Walter Kasper, The God of Jesus Christ, 155.
[7] Eric. J. Titus, “The Perfections of God in the Theology of Karl Barth: A Consideration of the Formal Structure,” 207.
[8] Karl Rahner, The Trinity, 22-23.
[9] Ibid., 23.
[10]Ibid., 23-24.
[11]Ibid.,, 10.
[12]Di Noia, J.A. Di Noia, Op, “Karl Rahner” in The Modern Theologians: An Introduction to Christian Theology in the Twentieth Century.
[13]Vincent Battaglia, An Examination of Karl Rahner’s Trinitarian Theology, (Australian eJournal of Theology, 9 March 2007), 1.
[14]Rahner, 17.
[15]Battaglia, 3.
[16]Ibid., 4.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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Continued:

Catherine LaCugna notes that the doctrine of the Trinity is ultimately a teaching not about the abstract nature of God, (although LaCugna deals with his attributes later on in her book) and also that God is not in isolation from everything other than God, but a teaching about God’s life with us, and our life with each other.[17] God is pro nobis, or “for us.” The knowledge of the revealing God rests in salvation history.

John Zizioulas, in his book, Being as Communion, emphasizes the ecclesiological knowledge of God, as found in the eastern Church. The Greek fathers locate the source of the Son and the Spirit, the unity of God and the being of God, in the person of the Father, rather than the divine substance as in the Western tradition.[18] First, they rejected the western idea of person, or “persona,” which means “mask,” for the ousia of being, with the hypostasis. This was significant in the revolutionary nature in the development of Greek thought. It became a two-fold thesis, where first, the person was no longer an adjunct to being, but rather a concrete entity of being, once verified its ontological hypostasis.

Stanley Grenz notes that in Zizioulas’ estimation that patristic thought contributed two far-reaching thesis that are applicable to theological anthropology. First, “there is no true being without communion,” so that “communion is an ontological category.” Second, communion does not originate from a concrete and free person (a hypostasis) and does not lead to concrete and free persons (hypostases)” and is not an “image” of the being of God. Grenz also recognizes that this Greek patristic concept of interpersonal personhood has emerged as the dominant principle in contemporary Trinitarian thought. It also provides a point of connection between theology (proper) and anthropology. The correlation by means of imago dei (the image of God) finds correspondence between each trinitarian person and a dimension of the properly related human.[19]

Karl Barth made perhaps his most significant contribution to trinitaritian doctrine in concluding that “the doctrine of the Trinity is grounded simply and directly in the self-revelation of God in Jesus Christ."[20]

Finally, Daniel Miglori observes in his book, Faith Seeking Understanding, that it is absolutely necessary to distinguish between the economic and immanent Trinity.

First, because the distinction emphasizes that in the reconciling activity of Jesus Christ and the renewing work of the Holy Spirit, God, remains true to Godself. God and the economy of salvation is the same has gone in all eternity. There are not two different trinities, one economic, and the other immanent. When Christians speak of God as eternally triune, they simply affirm the love of God that is extended to the world in Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit who authentically discloses who God really is. The love of God for the world has its basis in God’s eternal life of communion in love. Second, the distinction of the economic and immanent Trinity emphasizes God acts in the economy of salvation not out of necessity or need but out of sheer free grace. The life of love that is eternally shared by Father, Son and Holy Spirit is freely shared with us in the economy of creation and salvation.[21]



This post was just to show how much more complicated the Trinity is, and how our very salvation rests on the Trinity. Again, eliminate the Trinity, and you eliminate salvation.


Limited References (For more details on publisher, etc, send me a pm)

__________________________________________________________________

[17]Ibid., 15.

[18]Stanley J. Grenz, The Social God and the Relational Self: A Trinitarian Theology of the Imagio Dei, 52.

[19]Ibid., 52-53.

[20]Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, 262.

ed., (Grand Rapids Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Company, 2014), 72.

[21]Daniel. L. Migliore, Faith Seeking Understanding: An Introduction to Christian Theology, 3rd ed., 72.
 

Angela53510

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Jan 24, 2011
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From "The Image of God," another paper I wrote. This shows how important the Triune God is when considered Christ as the Imago Dei (image of God) and how we are being transformed into that image!

God is “community” – the fellowship of the three persons – the creation of humanity in the divine image must be related to humans in relationship, too.[1]“Only as we live in fellowship can we show forth what God is like.”[2]Humans need to reflect God’s character-love, in order to find their true nature and identity. Biblical Christians must be thoroughgoing trinitarians, looking to the divine life as the model for human life, so that as mirrors, Christians might reflect the character of God who is eternally love.[3]

Being made in the imago dei means that God gifted humans with a special capacity to live in unique relationships – to God, to one another, and to the rest of creation. Further, a Christian’s relationship with God, is not merely words on a piece of paper. The social trinitarian model is the result of God being the originator of cultivating good relationships. Although some might point out that humans are broken; yet, by knowing and walking with God, human beings can live faithfully as God’s creatures.
“The God who lives in relationship, calls us to life in relationship.”[4]

Theimago dei or “image of God” is a term describing the uniqueness of humans as God’s creatures.[5]God made humans in his image and likeness, and the understanding of the image affects how Christians treat their fellow humans and how they minister to them.[6]The imago dei includes the presence in humans, of will, emotions and reason; the ability to think and act creatively; and to interact socially with others. The root of the idea of the imago dei can be traced back to creation, in Genesis 2:26, where it says, “Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, after our likeness.”

Gunton, statesthat it is more than humans are the created beings and the relationship to God takes place through the Son and the Spirit. “To be in the image of God is to be created through the Son, who is the archetypal bearer of the image. To be in the image of God, therefore means to be conformed to the person of Christ. The agent of this conformity is God the Holy Spirit, the creator of community.”[7] From there, Gunton speaks about the second orientation, the “horizontal” one, that comes out of the work of the first. The image of God means as Christians, the church is dependent upon God’s giving and finds its reality in dependence in what believers give to and receive from others in human community.

The relational view of the Trinity sees the divine image as referring to a fundamental relationship between the human creature and creator.[8] The three trinitarian persons are person-in-relations and gain their personal identity by means of their interrelationality which holds promise for understanding as to what it means to be human persons,[9]created in the image of the communal and living God.

Jürgen Moltmann’s social trinitarianism posits that, “[t]he Trinitarian God is personal and also relational. The persons of the Trinity are one (einig) in the perichoretic relationship, which is defined as ‘the unity and fellowship of the Person.’”[10]Moltmann presents a mutual relationship between God and the world as analogous to the inner-trinitarian perichoresis.The concept of perichoresisgrants the individuality of the three persons be maintained, while at the same time asserting that each person partakes in the life the other two.[11]Leonardo Boff came to use the word, perichoresis, as the interpenetration of the three persons of God. The perichoretic image of the Trinity describes God’s “constant movement in a circle that implies intimacy, equality, unity yet distinction, and love.”[12]

At the heart of the biblical narrative is the story of God transforming humanity to be the imago dei,which is the reflection of the divine character, love. New Testament writers take a theological vision the God who is love into the realm of anthropology. God’s glorious love evokes human love in return. John stated the idea with sublime simplicity: “We love because he first loved us” (1 John 4:19).[13]The biblical command to love is an outworking of the principal that the ultimate foundation for human relationships resides in the eternal dynamic of the triune God.[14]Being loved by God and loving him in return opens the door to eternal life, a mirroring of the personal life of God by realizing personhood in ourselves.


[1]Stanley J. Grenz, Renewing the Center: Evangelical Theology in a Post-Theological Era, (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic. 2000), 213.
[2]Ibid.
[3]Ibid.
[4] Daniel L. Migliore, Faith Seeking Understanding: An Introduction to Christian Theology, 3rd ed. 144.
[5]Stanley J. Grenz, David Guretzki and Cherith Fee Nordling. The Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms. ), 63.
[6]Millard Erickson,Christian Theology: Second Edition, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Academic, 1998), 518- 519.
[7] Colin Gunton, “Trinity, Ontology and Anthropology: Towards a Renewal of the Doctrine of the Imago Dei” in Persons Divine and Human, edited by C. Schwoebel and C. Gunton, (Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1991), 58., 58-59.
[8] Stanley J. Grenz, The Social God and the Relational Self: A Trinitarian Theology of the Imagio Dei. (2001), 17.
[9]Ibid., 9.
[10]Jürgen Moltmann, The Trinity and the Kingdom, (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1993), 199.
[11]Kye Jae Kwang, “Moltmann’s Social Doctrine of the Trinity and its implications for Korean Church Leadership,” Korean Journal of Christian Studies, Vol. 75. (2011): 197. (accessed Mar. 8, 2019).
[12]Leonardo Boff, Trinity and Society, (Eugene, Oregon: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 1988), 134-135.
[13]Grenz, (2001), 320.
[14]Ibid.
 

Angela53510

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2/3 Continued:

Thus, humans fulfill their purpose as destined to be the imago dei by loving after the manner with triune God.[15]Trinitarian faith is the wondrous love that freely gives of itself to others and creates community, mutuality, and shared life.[16]The Trinity is essentially a koinonia of persons in love.[17]John D. Zizioulas expounds this concept of koinonia, harkening back to the Cappadocian Fathers speaking of the unity of God not in terms of his one nature, but in terms of the communion of persons. Zizioulas notes that for Basil, communion is an ontological category, and the one substance of God coincides with the communion of the three persons.[18]It can be concluded that what God created in his relationship with the creature, in the beginning, which was destroyed at the Fall, reclaimed by the Father, who sent his Son in love to die for our sins, that the person might be reunited through the power of the Holy Spirit by faith.

Gunton called for contemporary theologians to reconceive Christian doctrines in light of the all-important reality of the Trinity. He attempted to root the nature and calling of the church in the being and action of the triune God, who opens up a way for a more concrete and realistic perspective of the nature of the church, and relationship within the people of God.[19]Karl Barth wrote, “Even in his inner divine being, there is relationship…[H]e [God] is not alone…in the simplicity of his essence he is threefold – the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost”[20]

This is reflected in the community of God and man, in Jesus Christ, in the believing community of faith and in the co-partnership of people in society as male and female. The being of God is constituted in the inner relationship of the social Trinity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[21]

Kathryn Tanner, in her paper, “Trinity,” recognizes that the relationships among the members of the Trinity make for community. [22]She posits that “the unity and diversity of the Trinity might be explicated in such terms- especially when the meaning of ‘person’ in traditional trinitarian discussions is pushed in the direction of modern senses of person – such as a conscious subject oriented to others.” Tanner claims that the relation between one substance and three persons can be unpacked in terms of a relation that is between 1) a community and its members, and 2) relations among the three trinitarian persons.[23]

Human relations image the Trinity in ways appropriate to the finitude and sinfulness of human creatures. Gunton agrees with this, and declares that “to be in the image of God therefore means to be conformed to the person of Christ. The agent of this conformity is God the Holy Spirit, the creator of community. The image of God is then that being human, takes shape by virtue of the creating and redeeming triune God.[24]Being “in Christ” means to be conformed to the person of Christ, through the power of God, not of human strength or action.

To confess that God is triune is to affirm that the life of God is self-giving love whose strength embraces vulnerability.[25]This selfless, loving communion is always creative, expansive and transitive. Self-love, on the other hand is reductive, recessive and intransitive.[26] “God created humanity as an overflowing expression of the divine communal love. God’s chief aim in creating humanity is to love us and to enter communion with us. As those created in the image of God, our chief end is to respond to God’s love and to invite others into that communion that they may experience God’s goodness and grace.”[27]

Gunton concludes by stating that a trinitarian theology will stress the relations which involve all dimensions of our reality,[28] and God has created humanity as finite persons-in-relation who are called to acknowledge his creation, by becoming the persons who they are. This is to say, to be created in the imago dei, means that being human is never a static or final state of being, but rather realized in relation with the social Trinity and the community of God.




_______________________________________________________________________-
[15]Grenz (2001) 320
[16]Migliore, 76.
[17]Ibid., 77.
[18]John D. Zizioulas, Being as Communion, (Crestwood, New York: St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1985), 134.
[19] Uche Anizor, “A Spirited Humanity: The Trinitarian Ecclesiology of Colin Gunton.” Themelios36:1 (2001), 26.
[20] Thompson, John, Modern Trinitarian Perspectives, (New York: Oxford University Press, 1994), 132.
[21] Ibid.
[22]Kathryn Tanner, “Chapter 22: Trinity,” in The Blackwell Companion to Political Theology, ed. Peter Scott and William T. Cavanaugh, MA: Blackwell Publishing, 2004, 321.
[23]Ibid.
[24]Gunton, (1991), 58-59.
[25]Migliore, 81.
[26]A transitive verb needs a direct object. An intransitive verb does not. These terms are referring here to different kinds of love. Love that needs another, versus love that is self-focused. God’s love always requires another: God’s love always requires a direct object. Sinful, self-centered love is the kind of love that does not have an object other than itself. It is in this sense that the term “intransitive” is used.
[27]Harper and Metzger, 22.
[28]Gunton, (1991), 61.



So, no Triune God means no relationship with God and us, and no sanctification.
 

Angela53510

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3/3 Continued:

In Colossians 1, Christ is the image of God in the flesh, as a reconciling force, drawing humanity back into peaceful communion with God, by taking humanity’s brokenness upon himself to redeem and transform us.[29]James Torrance says:


What we need today is a better understanding of the person, not just as an individual,
but as someone who finds his or her true being with God and with others, the
counterpart of a Trinitarian doctrine of God. The God of the New Testament is the
God who has true being as the Father of the Son and as the Son of the Father in the
Spirit. God is love, and has his true being in the mutual indwelling of the Father,
Son and Holy Spirit – perichoresis, to use the patristic Word. This is the God who
created us male and female to find our true humanity in “perichoretic unity” with
him, with one another, and who renews us as the image of Christ.[30]

Finally, Daniel Migliore notes, “We are called to participate in and in some small way reflect God’s own life of relationship and communion.”[31] The foundation of all our relationships is based on the relationships within the social Trinity, where God’s triune life is the source of all life in relationship. But further, relationality is not limited to being self-contained but overflowing into the economy of creation and redemption. To say that God is triune is to say that also human life is fulfilled only in relationship with God and others.



__________________________________________________________
[29]Ibid, 23.
[30]James Torrance, “The Doctrine of the Trinity in Our Contemporary Situation,” in The Forgotten Trinity, ed. Alasdair I.C. Heron, (London: BCC/CCBI Interchurch House, 1989), 15.
[31]Migliore, 149.
 

tanakh

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This statement makes no sense. Let us look at this from reason and logic. Now let us look at this in the following manner and see if it makes any sense what you just said.

God = Supreme Being
The Father = God
Jesus = God

Now using trinity concept your above statement can be interpreted as follows "That's why God (Jesus) could be God and yet call God his God (Father)" Now how does this make any sense? Now if you are supreme, the highest power and authority, there can be no one else higher above. So how can one who is supreme, acknowledge another as being higher up? That makes no sense at all.
The main difference between the trinity and a human family is that all three members of the Trinity exist eternally. Christ is the eternal word. He took on human form and was then both fully human and fully divine. He called God Father because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit who is also God, part of the eternal divine family.

In John 14 Philip asked Jesus to show him the father. Jesus replied that he that had seen him had seen the Father because the
Father was in him and he was in the Father.

Moses went with up to Mountain to receive the ten commandments . He and those with him saw God face to face. Moses had
to cover his face with a veil when he returned because the glory of God shined from him. Who do you think he saw on the Mountain?
Who do Jews think he saw but God himself. The person on the Mountain was Christ the word' part of the trinity the family called God.

Going back to the human family my father was greater than I was. If I misbehaved as a child I soon found that out! But we both shared the same human nature. Going through life my teachers were greater, my bosses were greater and there are a huge number of people around who are greater now.

Finally Jesus said ''Destroy this temple and in three days I will rebuild it'' He was talking about his body. God resided in him fully
Our bodies are temples. The holy Spirit is God dwelling in our bodies. He Isn't just sitting on a throne in heaven somewhere waiting
for us to arrive. Actually he is everywhere. He encompasses the whole universe and more.
 

Angela53510

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Confusion galore.

Q. Is Jesus (one person and one being) God by Himself or must he be with others to be called God?

Matt 11:25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
The only one confused is you! With your heretical non-Trinitarian theology. As I told you many times, "being and person are different things!" You give them the same definition and that is wrong in any language.