If the Church Won't, the Government Will

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Nov 17, 2019
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#1
It happens every third Sunday. Most pastors in the U.S. will get behind the podium, shaking their fists, railing against the forces behind socialism in America. They lament about the demise of our society and how the Democrats are ruining the American way of life. The candidates for president are all socialists, and socialism, they say, leads to communism, and communism will destroy our country!

Communism defined

Communism: (from Latin communis, "common, universal") is a philosophical, social, political and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of a communist society, namely a socioeconomic order structured upon the ideas of common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money and the state. -- Wikipedia

Was the early church made up of communists?

The early church can be thought of as communistic in its purest form:

And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved. Acts 2: 42-47

Much different than Marxism

The manner in which these early Christians lived was far removed from Marxist ideology. However, the basic tenants of communism are the same:
  • They lived in close proximity to one another.
  • They gave freely of their time and possessions so that no one would go without the basic necessities of life.
  • They ate together, prayed together, and there was a real sense of community.

The difference between this and the Marxist ideal is that there was no government mandate. These early believers gave of themselves, without the need for bureaucratic coercion. They were a benevolent society, much like the churches in America used to be; the churches that have recently succumbed to corporate capitalism.


Is capitalism evil?

A capitalist system has proven very useful to the growth and overall well-being of any country that adopts it. It has proven far superior to any socialist/ communist scheme that has ever been tried in the past. A free-market economy will always work better. However, capitalism should never be part of the underlying structure of any church organization. It should remain a tight-knit, benevolent society of believers who share each other's burdens.

Why are churches in the U.S. no longer benevolent?

There are two parts to most church budgets: the mortgage payment and staff compensation ( salaries, housing allowance, and health care benefits). These two major items usually consume at least 85% of what the church brings in through tithes and offerings. 5% goes to maintain the building. Another 5% goes to marketing (most churches don't like to call it that, but in reality, that is what it is). The amount remaining, about 5%, is usually divided between mission work and a paultry "benevolent fund."

With churches in the U.S. so strapped for cash, it is no wonder they have trouble serving their communities. There is not much room in the budget to open a food pantry. Single parents now look to the government for help in raising their children instead of their churches. Alcoholics and drug addicts find support through city and county programs. These struggling victims of Satan's attacks know better than to ask a pastor at a local church. They have experienced a cold shoulder one-too-many times!

What is the solution?

Here are a few suggestions for the followers of Christ to serve their communities rather than rely solely on the government:

  1. Sell your church building and give the money to the poor
  2. Take the money you usually tithe to the church and give it to someone who actually needs it
  3. There are 168 hours in a week. Most churches utilize their building for only a few hours a week. Make it a goal to open it to the public at least three times what you do now.
  4. Rent the church building out to other organizations during the week. Use the proceeds to pay down the mortgage in half the time.
  5. Turn your church building into a homeless shelter.
  6. Go back to having fund-raisers instead of asking each member of the church to put the financial well being of their families at risk.

By merely suggesting these solutions to the church hierarchy, a lowly parishioner may be chastised. However, it is essential to remember that if the church does not get involved with the local community, the government is all-too-willing, at great cost to the American taxpayer!
 
Feb 1, 2020
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#2
Parable of the Talents is a pretty good one for this sort of subject. Profitable servants will be given more, but the unprofitable servants, even that which he has shall be taken from him.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#3
It happens every third Sunday. Most pastors in the U.S. will get behind the podium, shaking their fists, railing against the forces behind socialism in America. They lament about the demise of our society and how the Democrats are ruining the American way of life. The candidates for president are all socialists, and socialism, they say, leads to communism, and communism will destroy our country!

Communism defined

Communism: (from Latin communis, "common, universal") is a philosophical, social, political and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of a communist society, namely a socioeconomic order structured upon the ideas of common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money and the state. -- Wikipedia

Was the early church made up of communists?

The early church can be thought of as communistic in its purest form:

And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved. Acts 2: 42-47

Much different than Marxism

The manner in which these early Christians lived was far removed from Marxist ideology. However, the basic tenants of communism are the same:
  • They lived in close proximity to one another.
  • They gave freely of their time and possessions so that no one would go without the basic necessities of life.
  • They ate together, prayed together, and there was a real sense of community.

The difference between this and the Marxist ideal is that there was no government mandate. These early believers gave of themselves, without the need for bureaucratic coercion. They were a benevolent society, much like the churches in America used to be; the churches that have recently succumbed to corporate capitalism.


Is capitalism evil?

A capitalist system has proven very useful to the growth and overall well-being of any country that adopts it. It has proven far superior to any socialist/ communist scheme that has ever been tried in the past. A free-market economy will always work better. However, capitalism should never be part of the underlying structure of any church organization. It should remain a tight-knit, benevolent society of believers who share each other's burdens.

Why are churches in the U.S. no longer benevolent?

There are two parts to most church budgets: the mortgage payment and staff compensation ( salaries, housing allowance, and health care benefits). These two major items usually consume at least 85% of what the church brings in through tithes and offerings. 5% goes to maintain the building. Another 5% goes to marketing (most churches don't like to call it that, but in reality, that is what it is). The amount remaining, about 5%, is usually divided between mission work and a paultry "benevolent fund."

With churches in the U.S. so strapped for cash, it is no wonder they have trouble serving their communities. There is not much room in the budget to open a food pantry. Single parents now look to the government for help in raising their children instead of their churches. Alcoholics and drug addicts find support through city and county programs. These struggling victims of Satan's attacks know better than to ask a pastor at a local church. They have experienced a cold shoulder one-too-many times!

What is the solution?

Here are a few suggestions for the followers of Christ to serve their communities rather than rely solely on the government:

  1. Sell your church building and give the money to the poor
  2. Take the money you usually tithe to the church and give it to someone who actually needs it
  3. There are 168 hours in a week. Most churches utilize their building for only a few hours a week. Make it a goal to open it to the public at least three times what you do now.
  4. Rent the church building out to other organizations during the week. Use the proceeds to pay down the mortgage in half the time.
  5. Turn your church building into a homeless shelter.
  6. Go back to having fund-raisers instead of asking each member of the church to put the financial well being of their families at risk.

By merely suggesting these solutions to the church hierarchy, a lowly parishioner may be chastised. However, it is essential to remember that if the church does not get involved with the local community, the government is all-too-willing, at great cost to the American taxpayer!
The early church practices are in no way aligned with Communism.

Communism is based upon revolution and economic compulsion.

No parallels exist.
 
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#4
The early church practices are in no way aligned with Communism.

Communism is based upon revolution and economic compulsion.

No parallels exist.
You're close, but actually communism is based on a total lie, hence the symptoms of violent revolutions, economic destruction, and famine that follow all those foolish enough to try to make the lie real.
 
Feb 1, 2020
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#5
The early church practices are in no way aligned with Communism.

Communism is based upon revolution and economic compulsion.

No parallels exist.
Also a thought came to my mind suddenly, but the edit time expired. There is actually a biblical parallel to the lie of communism. It is the slavery of the jews to Pharaoh in the book of Exodus; the jews were a slave caste, Pharaoh had control of their rations, Pharaoh determined their labor requirements, Pharaoh enforced State worship (in classic communistic hallmark, typically of himself if indeed he is Ramses II). And of course that also didn't work too well for Pharaoh as God pretty well smote him and his whole race. You can see in the wandering of the wilderness how some of the jews hearts turned back to Egypt, the house of bondage, to their own detriment.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#6
You're close, but actually communism is based on a total lie, hence the symptoms of violent revolutions, economic destruction, and famine that follow all those foolish enough to try to make the lie real.
Agree.

I should have added that in. :)

They were not foolish though, many knew exactly what they were doing and they did it for a reason.
 
Feb 1, 2020
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#7
Agree.

I should have added that in. :)

They were not foolish though, many knew exactly what they were doing and they did it for a reason.
Intent does not negate foolishness, in fact many fools are very willfully foolish as the Proverbs often humorously detail.

Proverbs 10:23

23 It is as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.
 
Nov 17, 2019
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#8
The early church practices are in no way aligned with Communism.

Communism is based upon revolution and economic compulsion.

No parallels exist.
I figured I would get a response like this from someone. I think you are missing the point of my post.

Simply put, if the churches don't step up, we will eventually have a socialist state, which could lead to communism.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#9
Looks like you have not carefully thought through your proposals
Sell your church building and give the money to the poor
Which means that you will be without a meeting place. Then you will have to go to the government and ask them to rent you one of their facilities.
Take the money you usually tithe to the church and give it to someone who actually needs it
Which means that your pastor(s) will have no income, and your missionaries will nave no support.
There are 168 hours in a week. Most churches utilize their building for only a few hours a week. Make it a goal to open it to the public at least three times what you do now.
The public is not interested in church buildings, unless it could be to vandalize it.
Rent the church building out to other organizations during the week. Use the proceeds to pay down the mortgage in half the time.
The church building is meant for Christian ministries. There would be no need to rent it to any secular organization if there was a proper plan to utilize the building throughout the week for various ministries.
Turn your church building into a homeless shelter.Go back to having fund-raisers instead of asking each member of the church to put the financial well being of their families at risk.
Christian giving was never meant to put the financial well being of anyone at risk. And making it into a homeless shelter would mean that Christians could not use it for worship after that. And unless one has a well thought out plan to eventually have the homeless become productive citizens instead of remain as parasites, this would be a band-aid solution.

NOTE: WELFARE SYSTEMS WERE DESIGNED TO PURCHASE VOTES. ALL THE LEFTIST SCHEMES TO BRING IN ILLEGALS AND SUPPORT THEM ARE TO SIMPLY PURCHASE VOTES WITH TAX DOLLARS.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#10
I figured I would get a response like this from someone. I think you are missing the point of my post.

Simply put, if the churches don't step up, we will eventually have a socialist state, which could lead to communism.
Glad I was the one...lol

Yes, I knew that was your overarching point...I absolutely agree.

The advent of socialism is occurring because of the pulpits, they are complicit.

The whole left-right dichotomy is part of the problem.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
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www.christiancourier.com
#11
It happens every third Sunday. Most pastors in the U.S. will get behind the podium, shaking their fists, railing against the forces behind socialism in America. They lament about the demise of our society and how the Democrats are ruining the American way of life. The candidates for president are all socialists, and socialism, they say, leads to communism, and communism will destroy our country!

Communism defined

Communism: (from Latin communis, "common, universal") is a philosophical, social, political and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of a communist society, namely a socioeconomic order structured upon the ideas of common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money and the state. -- Wikipedia

Was the early church made up of communists?

The early church can be thought of as communistic in its purest form:

And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved. Acts 2: 42-47

Much different than Marxism

The manner in which these early Christians lived was far removed from Marxist ideology. However, the basic tenants of communism are the same:
  • They lived in close proximity to one another.
  • They gave freely of their time and possessions so that no one would go without the basic necessities of life.
  • They ate together, prayed together, and there was a real sense of community.

The difference between this and the Marxist ideal is that there was no government mandate. These early believers gave of themselves, without the need for bureaucratic coercion. They were a benevolent society, much like the churches in America used to be; the churches that have recently succumbed to corporate capitalism.


Is capitalism evil?

A capitalist system has proven very useful to the growth and overall well-being of any country that adopts it. It has proven far superior to any socialist/ communist scheme that has ever been tried in the past. A free-market economy will always work better. However, capitalism should never be part of the underlying structure of any church organization. It should remain a tight-knit, benevolent society of believers who share each other's burdens.

Why are churches in the U.S. no longer benevolent?

There are two parts to most church budgets: the mortgage payment and staff compensation ( salaries, housing allowance, and health care benefits). These two major items usually consume at least 85% of what the church brings in through tithes and offerings. 5% goes to maintain the building. Another 5% goes to marketing (most churches don't like to call it that, but in reality, that is what it is). The amount remaining, about 5%, is usually divided between mission work and a paultry "benevolent fund."

With churches in the U.S. so strapped for cash, it is no wonder they have trouble serving their communities. There is not much room in the budget to open a food pantry. Single parents now look to the government for help in raising their children instead of their churches. Alcoholics and drug addicts find support through city and county programs. These struggling victims of Satan's attacks know better than to ask a pastor at a local church. They have experienced a cold shoulder one-too-many times!

What is the solution?

Here are a few suggestions for the followers of Christ to serve their communities rather than rely solely on the government:

  1. Sell your church building and give the money to the poor
  2. Take the money you usually tithe to the church and give it to someone who actually needs it
  3. There are 168 hours in a week. Most churches utilize their building for only a few hours a week. Make it a goal to open it to the public at least three times what you do now.
  4. Rent the church building out to other organizations during the week. Use the proceeds to pay down the mortgage in half the time.
  5. Turn your church building into a homeless shelter.
  6. Go back to having fund-raisers instead of asking each member of the church to put the financial well being of their families at risk.

By merely suggesting these solutions to the church hierarchy, a lowly parishioner may be chastised. However, it is essential to remember that if the church does not get involved with the local community, the government is all-too-willing, at great cost to the American taxpayer!
So you are here to speak to a Christian Socialist Communist model then?

Would you happen to know anything about the book, All Things in Common?
 
Nov 17, 2019
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#12
They were not foolish though, many knew exactly what they were doing and they did it for a reason.
There needs to be a distinction between a benevolent society like the one displayed by the early church and Marxism, which is what you are so adamant about.

But herein lies the problem. Pastors and other church leaders are so afraid of communism that it has clouded their judgment. For example, they often say to themselves, if not to their congregations:

"If we give our money to the poor, we may be labeled communists. We certainly don't want to go against the conservatives, since most of our big donors are aligned with that group."

"If we start giving stuff away, here comes a bunch of other free-loaders on the gravy train."

"My time is valuable. I spent a lot of money going to school. Why should I spend time counseling someone when they are just going to fall back into their own trap."

" This is something the socialist Democrats do."

And on and on it goes... Our church leaders are so afraid of the right-wing of the Republican party, they have forgotten why they are in business-- to serve. Jesus didn't go into the ministry with the idea of erecting a building, throwing 100 people in it, having a sermon every week, and then spending the other 164 hours that week preparing for "another awesome sermon."

Instead, Jesus did this:

He preached Matt. 5

He healed the sick Matt 8.

He trained His disciples Matt 10.

He taught Matt. 13.

He evangelized John 4.

He fed 5,000 people John 6

He washed the disciple's feet John 13.

He did all this without a building, a group of elders, a music band complete with stages and lights, a college degree, a new house, or a new car. He had nothing:

Now when Jesus saw a crowd around him, he gave orders to go over to the other side. And a scribe came up and said to him, "Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go." And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head." Matt. 8: 18-20


I wonder if Franklin Graham would be willing to give up his $30 million net worth to follow the same example.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
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#13
Pastors and other church leaders are so afraid of communism that it has clouded their judgment.
And rightly so. Atheistic Communism is TOTALLY OPPOSED to Christianity. Bernie Sanders in an Atheist. The Soviet Union was steeped in godless Communism. China is presently attacking and persecuting Chinese Christians, and Mao is their god. So yes, all pastors and all Christians should be totally opposed to Communism.
 

17Bees

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2016
1,380
813
113
#14
There needs to be a distinction between a benevolent society like the one displayed by the early church and Marxism, which is what you are so adamant about.

But herein lies the problem. Pastors and other church leaders are so afraid of communism that it has clouded their judgment. For example, they often say to themselves, if not to their congregations:

"If we give our money to the poor, we may be labeled communists. We certainly don't want to go against the conservatives, since most of our big donors are aligned with that group."

"If we start giving stuff away, here comes a bunch of other free-loaders on the gravy train."

"My time is valuable. I spent a lot of money going to school. Why should I spend time counseling someone when they are just going to fall back into their own trap."

" This is something the socialist Democrats do."

And on and on it goes... Our church leaders are so afraid of the right-wing of the Republican party, they have forgotten why they are in business-- to serve. Jesus didn't go into the ministry with the idea of erecting a building, throwing 100 people in it, having a sermon every week, and then spending the other 164 hours that week preparing for "another awesome sermon."

Instead, Jesus did this:

He preached Matt. 5

He healed the sick Matt 8.

He trained His disciples Matt 10.

He taught Matt. 13.

He evangelized John 4.

He fed 5,000 people John 6

He washed the disciple's feet John 13.

He did all this without a building, a group of elders, a music band complete with stages and lights, a college degree, a new house, or a new car. He had nothing:

Now when Jesus saw a crowd around him, he gave orders to go over to the other side. And a scribe came up and said to him, "Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go." And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head." Matt. 8: 18-20


I wonder if Franklin Graham would be willing to give up his $30 million net worth to follow the same example.
Can you give me any example at all of any pastor or priest anywhere that is afraid of being labled a communist because they give to the poor? Ever?

Can you tell me how much I give to the poor? Or any one in particular in this very small number of Christianchat participants? Or even Franklin Graham whom you cited? My guess is you don't know. And you don't even know what other people think like you claim in this post.

And while you gave good examples of what Jesus did do, let me tell you what He didn't do, and that is to enforce His way of benevolence by using the law and subsequent sword of the Roman Empire.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
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#15
Turn your church building into a homeless shelter.
Homelessness can be eliminated if there is a political will to do so.

There is no question that homelessness has become a scourge in the cities of North America. It is estimated that about 600,000 people are homeless in the USA, and primarily along the west coast (where Left-Liberalism prevails). New York, Texas, and Florida also have high levels of homelessness.

The fact that many veterans (estimated at 38,000) – people who have served their country – are homeless shows that the governments in the USA and Canada have failed veterans miserably and shamefully.

There are several programs to provide permanent and temporary shelters to the homeless. There are also various laws that make living on the streets a misdemeanor. But Left-Liberals would rather have people living on the streets than finding proper solutions.

There are two factors which impinge on homelessness: (1) unemployment and (2) affordable housing.

So full employment for all able-bodied individuals should be the first priority. Anyone who is able to work and requests welfare should be required to take a job, and welfare should act as an income supplement only. If necessary, individuals should be helped to find suitable jobs (and there are plenty of jobs).

As to affordable housing, since rent-controls would be undue interference with the marketplace, again, a housing supplement payable directly to landlords would enable people to live off the streets.

Once these provisions are in place living on the street or in public parks should be outlawed. There would be no reason for anyone to be homeless if they have a job and a place to rent which they can afford (with appropriate assistance until such time as they do not need any assistance).
 
Nov 17, 2019
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#16
DesertWanderer said:


Sell your church building and give the money to the poor

Which means that you will be without a meeting place. Then you will have to go to the government and ask them to rent you one of their facilities.
Why would we have to do that? The early church didn't rely on the Romans to supply buildings for worship. In fact, they met in their homes and in secret places in order to hide from the government. We are not dependent on a hierarchy for support; neither from the state nor the church. We can meet with each other just fine without spending millions of dollars on buildings.
 
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#17
Can you give me any example at all of any pastor or priest anywhere that is afraid of being labled a communist because they give to the poor? Ever?
You hear it in the sermons. Pastors literally discourage giving to the poor, because "these low-lifes did it to themselves." Instead, we are encouraged to give to a bloated building fund.

Can you tell me how much I give to the poor? Or any one in particular in this very small number of Christianchat participants? Or even Franklin Graham whom you cited? My guess is you don't know.
I know what Jesus gave-- everything. And he didn't have a $30 million net worth.
 
Nov 17, 2019
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#18
And while you gave good examples of what Jesus did do, let me tell you what He didn't do, and that is to enforce His way of benevolence by using the law and subsequent sword of the Roman Empire.
That has been my whole point all along if you would have read the entire post. If the church doesn't step up and start making disciples again, the government will.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#19
We can meet with each other just fine without spending millions of dollars on buildings.
I was not recommending spending millions on a building. Or any kind of lavish or extravagant expenditure on erecting a cathedral. Meeting is homes is fine up to a point, but once there are a dozen or more people meeting in a home it would be impractical in many ways.

But an adequate meeting place for Christians in any locality may be both necessary and desirable. To suggest that those with church buildings should sell them off and distribute the proceeds to the poor is both naive and foolish. There is no demand for church buildings as residences, so chances are a cult might show up and purchase that building to promote its cultic beliefs. And that would certainly be unacceptable.
 
Nov 17, 2019
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#20
To suggest that those with church buildings should sell them off and distribute the proceeds to the poor is both naive and foolish. There is no demand for church buildings as residences, so chances are a cult might show up and purchase that building to promote its cultic beliefs. And that would certainly be unacceptable.
You would certainly know who the "real Christians" are. And it is happening as we speak. More home churches are popping up around the world. I think we have to be careful not to let these small congregations develop into cults, however.

I think the notion of church buildings only being desireable to cultish organizations is a bit of a stretch.