If the Church Won't, the Government Will

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seoulsearch

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
#81
May 23, 2009
16,713
5,623
113
#81
kaylagrl said:
Big ideas are great, if carried through. I wonder how much evangelizing our friend has done. How much he has given up for the Gospel. The comforts of home, a job, financial? What has he himself given up compared to evangelists and pastors? I just wonder.
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I have to admit that I almost envy people who promote the kinds of ideas that the OP is presenting. I suppose it's just my cynical self, but what it says to me is that perhaps those who endorse such ideas haven't experienced or observed some of the way that trying to do ministry in this prescribed manner can go wrong. Sometimes wish I could go back to being that trusting as well.

I understand why people would promote meeting in homes and not church buildings, but they must be realistically prepared. What if someone shows up at their meetings intoxicated, or in possession of guns and illegal substances? And what if a well-meaning fellow meeting member decided to report to the authorities that you have guns and drugs in your home (at these meetings), even if they aren't yours? How will you explain this to local authorities? What about the thousands of Christians who are struggling with pornography -- how many people are willing to bring this into their homes, and around their children?

Long before the (US) states began legalizing marijuana, I gave a lift to a co-worker who didn't have a license (due to intoxication issues). It was a few hours away and crossed into another state. Some time later, I found out that this person carried drugs with them at all times, and was carrying them in my car as I took them home. I thank God we weren't pulled over for some reason -- imagine what could have happened if we had been. And even if something is legal in one state, it doesn't mean that it will be legal in the next.

I'm also very surprised that no one has pointed out the myriad of personal risks people might be taking on when inviting others into their homes in regards to the #MeToo era.

Let's say that every week, Single Sister Sally shows up faithfully at Mr. and Mrs. Steward's house for worship and Bible study, and always arrives 20 minutes early. A number of scenarios could explain this -- perhaps Single Sister Sally just likes to be early. Or... what if Single Sister Sally has developed an attachment to Mr. Smith? Or what if Mr. Smith has developed a liking for Single Sister Sally, and asks her to arrive early for a few minutes of "extra Bible study", knowing that his wife will be taking the kids to soccer practice? All it would take is one accusation from either side and soon, everyone's reputations and lives could be shattered.

Even if there was absolutely nothing going on, people like to make assumptions and love to have something to talk about. ("Did you notice when you got here that it was only Single Sister Sally and Mr. Steward? I wonder what's going on!")

I realize it's going to sound like I'm paranoid, but part of my education within a lifetime of church culture is seeing a glimpse of how some of the most well-intentioned people have been dragged into situations that take everything from them and scar their reputations for life.

I'm certainly not trying to say the church has every solution, but I know that for people like myself, the church at least offers some protection against the many legal and social ramifications that "lone rangers" are going to face.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#82
#82
seoulsearch said:
I have to admit that I almost envy people who promote the kinds of ideas that the OP is presenting. I suppose it's just my cynical self, but what it says to me is that perhaps those who endorse such ideas haven't experienced or observed some of the way that trying to do ministry in this prescribed manner can go wrong. Sometimes wish I could go back to being that trusting as well.

I understand why people would promote meeting in homes and not church buildings, but they must be realistically prepared. What if someone shows up at their meetings intoxicated, or in possession of guns and illegal substances? And what if a well-meaning fellow meeting member decided to report to the authorities that you have guns and drugs in your home (at these meetings), even if they aren't yours? How will you explain this to local authorities? What about the thousands of Christians who are struggling with pornography -- how many people are willing to bring this into their homes, and around their children?

Long before the (US) states began legalizing marijuana, I gave a lift to a co-worker who didn't have a license (due to intoxication issues). It was a few hours away and crossed into another state. Some time later, I found out that this person carried drugs with them at all times, and was carrying them in my car as I took them home. I thank God we weren't pulled over for some reason -- imagine what could have happened if we had been. And even if something is legal in one state, it doesn't mean that it will be legal in the next.

I'm also very surprised that no one has pointed out the myriad of personal risks people might be taking on when inviting others into their homes in regards to the #MeToo era.

Let's say that every week, Single Sister Sally shows up faithfully at Mr. and Mrs. Steward's house for worship and Bible study, and always arrives 20 minutes early. A number of scenarios could explain this -- perhaps Single Sister Sally just likes to be early. Or... what if Single Sister Sally has developed an attachment to Mr. Smith? Or what if Mr. Smith has developed a liking for Single Sister Sally, and asks her to arrive early for a few minutes of "extra Bible study", knowing that his wife will be taking the kids to soccer practice? All it would take is one accusation from either side and soon, everyone's reputations and lives could be shattered.

Even if there was absolutely nothing going on, people like to make assumptions and love to have something to talk about. ("Did you notice when you got here that it was only Single Sister Sally and Mr. Steward? I wonder what's going on!")

I realize it's going to sound like I'm paranoid, but part of my education within a lifetime of church culture is seeing a glimpse of how some of the most well-intentioned people have been dragged into situations that take everything from them and scar their reputations for life.

I'm certainly not trying to say the church has every solution, but I know that for people like myself, the church at least offers some protection against the many legal and social ramifications that "lone rangers" are going to face.
Click to expand...

I guess I'm just old enough to remember home meetings. It started out with great ideas but turned into a mess quickly. There was a lot of abuse under the name "discipleship" a lot of false teaching going around. There were people being unfaithful in their marriages. It seemed like a good idea at the time. I don't mind if people want to meet in homes and reach outside the church. That's up to them. My issue comes in when people bash pastors and churches. If you saw the other side, if you sat and listened to what pastors and their wives face, it might give people a better appreciation of their pastor. Not you, but you understand what I mean. :)
 
D

DesertWanderer

Active member
#83
Nov 17, 2019
366
201
43
61
New Mexico, USA
#83
kaylagrl said:
What about fellowship with other Christians to help that person grow?
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Okay, but it won't work if you try and drag more than a few people in with you. That's what's wrong with the system now. It's way to complicated. Discipleship is a messy business. The simpler you make it, the better.

kaylagrl said:
Who "trains" that person?
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God, through His word, directed by the Holy Spirit. Who else would it be?

I think too many of us have been brainwashed into believing that only a person with a Ph.D. in seminary can teach others about biblical principles. I have probably heard over 1,000 sermons in my life. I think by now I am ready. How about you?

kaylagrl said:
Man, it's hard enough to get Christians up on Sunday morning and out to church let alone bring an unsaved friend.
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My advice is to start with someone who already values you as a person. I decided to start with my son. Maybe you have a sibling who you can pray and worship with. You can bring each other along until you get up the courage to witness to a non-believer. You don't need to have a big crowd. You are the church because Christ lives inside you.

For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them." Matt. 18:20
 
D

DesertWanderer

Active member
#84
Nov 17, 2019
366
201
43
61
New Mexico, USA
#84
kaylagrl said:
Big ideas are great, if carried through. I wonder how much evangelizing our friend has done. How much he has given up for the Gospel. The comforts of home, a job, financial? What has he himself given up compared to evangelists and pastors? I just wonder.
Click to expand...
I'm not advocating for "big ideas." In fact, we as the church need to bring ourselves low before God. This is not a very "big idea" at all:

1. Tell someone how God has changed your life through Jesus Christ
2. Help each other grow as disciples
3. Repeat

For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them." Matt. 18:20
 
D

DesertWanderer

Active member
#85
Nov 17, 2019
366
201
43
61
New Mexico, USA
#85
seoulsearch said:
I understand why people would promote meeting in homes and not church buildings, but they must be realistically prepared. What if someone shows up at their meetings intoxicated, or in possession of guns and illegal substances? And what if a well-meaning fellow meeting member decided to report to the authorities that you have guns and drugs in your home (at these meetings), even if they aren't yours? How will you explain this to local authorities? What about the thousands of Christians who are struggling with pornography -- how many people are willing to bring this into their homes, and around their children?
Click to expand...
What if, what if, what if. That is the question too many churches are asking these days. But I get your point. Again--one more time-- I am not suggesting you open the doors of your home to the entire city where you live. Instead, do this:

1. Tell someone about how God has changed your life through Jesus Christ
2. Help them (and yourself) become a disciple
3. Repeat
 
D

DesertWanderer

Active member
#86
Nov 17, 2019
366
201
43
61
New Mexico, USA
#86
seoulsearch said:
I'm also very surprised that no one has pointed out the myriad of personal risks people might be taking on when inviting others into their homes in regards to the #MeToo era.

Let's say that every week, Single Sister Sally shows up faithfully at Mr. and Mrs. Steward's house for worship and Bible study, and always arrives 20 minutes early. A number of scenarios could explain this -- perhaps Single Sister Sally just likes to be early. Or... what if Single Sister Sally has developed an attachment to Mr. Smith? Or what if Mr. Smith has developed a liking for Single Sister Sally, and asks her to arrive early for a few minutes of "extra Bible study", knowing that his wife will be taking the kids to soccer practice? All it would take is one accusation from either side and soon, everyone's reputations and lives could be shattered.

Even if there was absolutely nothing going on, people like to make assumptions and love to have something to talk about. ("Did you notice when you got here that it was only Single Sister Sally and Mr. Steward? I wonder what's going on!")

I realize it's going to sound like I'm paranoid, but part of my education within a lifetime of church culture is seeing a glimpse of how some of the most well-intentioned people have been dragged into situations that take everything from them and scar their reputations for life.
Click to expand...
No, it actually sounds like you are taking on the position of the typical church in America: 'Let's not take any risks because we may get into legal trouble, and thereby hurt our reputation." Of course, this thinking is flawed. Jesus didn't make the people he healed sign a waiver. However, in spite of all His beautiful signs and wonders, He got into a lot of trouble with the Pharisees.

I'm not saying to go out and invite 50 strangers into your home next Sunday. But would you at least commit to maybe having one of your neighbors over to tell them about the Good News? Who knows, maybe they are Christians also. You can get a small fellowship started and not even have to skip church this Sunday!
 
D

DesertWanderer

Active member
#87
Nov 17, 2019
366
201
43
61
New Mexico, USA
#87
kaylagrl said:
The Young Turks!!? You're using far left radical ideologues to judge the church!! Come on man. Give me a break.
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That was only one video, which you chose to hone in on. That's okay, though. Apparently, the church has failed to reach these "far-left radical ideologues." Now would be a good time to start, don't you think?

You aren't going to do it by dragging them into a building full of strangers, making them sit and listen to a sermon then forget all about them until next week.

The best way to reach those people is with one-on-one interaction, telling them about how God has changed YOUR life, not by dragging them to an unfamiliar event with a room full of strangers.
 
seoulsearch

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
#88
May 23, 2009
16,713
5,623
113
#88
DesertWanderer said:
No, it actually sounds like you are taking on the position of the typical church in America: 'Let's not take any risks because we may get into legal trouble, and thereby hurt our reputation." Of course, this thinking is flawed. Jesus didn't make the people he healed sign a waiver. However, in spite of all His beautiful signs and wonders, He got into a lot of trouble with the Pharisees.

I'm not saying to go out and invite 50 strangers into your home next Sunday. But would you at least commit to maybe having one of your neighbors over to tell them about the Good News? Who knows, maybe they are Christians also. You can get a small fellowship started and not even have to skip church this Sunday!
Click to expand...

My church has both regular Sunday worship as well as several small group Bible studies, classes, etc., that are held in people's homes and/or at the church building. As a single woman, I prefer to attend these opportunities at the public church, but of course, everyone learns/grows differently, which is why they offer several options.

I think many of us take our risks in our own way. For a while, I was going to prisons to talk to inmates, so that was my way of "telling one person about Jesus" at that time, and at my own comfort level.

Desert, if I may -- I couldn't help but remember a post you made in another thread you wrote:


DesertWanderer said:
In my example, Polly-Ann Princess is not the problem. It is the church that encourages her to find perfection in her new husband.

I will have to elaborate later. I have to get to my second job. If I don't make my child support payments on time, I could potentially lose my driver's license, forfeit my passport, have my wages garnished and ultimately be sent to jail-- all at gunpoint.

That's something to think about for all you young men who think you're grown up enough to risk getting your girlfriend pregnant.
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I didn't have the time to look through all of your old posts, but I think this post sums it up well. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I've read in your posts before that someone once left you behind with the excuse that they were looking for someone who was "more spiritual"?

And I know you have written elsewhere about how hard you work to support your young child (kudos to you for that.)

I was just wondering, are some of the ideas you write about often here rooted in the belief that the church betrayed you, and is yet just another empty institution that is demanding/out to get your hard-earned money?
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#89
#89
DesertWanderer said:
That was only one video, which you chose to hone in on. That's okay, though. Apparently, the church has failed to reach these "far-left radical ideologues." Now would be a good time to start, don't you think?

You aren't going to do it by dragging them into a building full of strangers, making them sit and listen to a sermon then forget all about them until next week.

The best way to reach those people is with one-on-one interaction, telling them about how God has changed YOUR life, not by dragging them to an unfamiliar event with a room full of strangers.
Click to expand...

You don't know a thing about me. You don't know where I've been and what I've done. See that's my point, you're judging peoples intent and heart that you don't even personally know.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#90
#90
DesertWanderer said:
I'm not advocating for "big ideas." In fact, we as the church need to bring ourselves low before God. This is not a very "big idea" at all:

1. Tell someone how God has changed your life through Jesus Christ
2. Help each other grow as disciples
3. Repeat

For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them." Matt. 18:20
Click to expand...
Big ideas is not my term. Again, I ask, what have you personally given up to spread the Gospel?
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#93
#93
kaylagrl said:
Big ideas are great, if carried through. I wonder how much evangelizing our friend has done. How much he has given up for the Gospel. The comforts of home, a job, financial? What has he himself given up compared to evangelists and pastors? I just wonder.
Click to expand...

too many people think there is some sort of method to God doing what God does

it is a difficult thing to work with people when you are dealing with their lives/personalities

but you know that

the early church was not communism...or socialism..that is nonsense

they were moved by the Holy Spirit to do what they did and in the end, they were persecuted but that is now the gospel spread
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#95
#95
kaylagrl said:
Big ideas is not my term. Again, I ask, what have you personally given up to spread the Gospel?
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obviously you are not going to get a straight answer ... he says he has given up the institutional church

the hot air in this op is worse than FL in the middle of the summer :rolleyes:
 
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