Are you a Trinitarian, and if so, can you defend the doctrine?
- Thread starter UnitedWithChrist
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Ok this is why I have a problem with "essence "
It is so abstract it puts God in a form of a cloud with 3 heads.
"They" take on the form of an "essence "
Definition of essence
1a: the permanent as contrasted with theaccidental element of being
b: the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existencea painting that captures the essence of the land
c: the properties orattributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is
2: the most significant element, quality, or aspect of a thing or personthe essence of the issue
It is so abstract it puts God in a form of a cloud with 3 heads.
"They" take on the form of an "essence "
Definition of essence
1a: the permanent as contrasted with theaccidental element of being
b: the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existencea painting that captures the essence of the land
c: the properties orattributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is
2: the most significant element, quality, or aspect of a thing or personthe essence of the issue
The above quote makes it clear that Jesus was a man, in other words a created being. A man is a created being, or to use the trinity vocabulary a created person. Nowhere in Acts2.22 does it say Jesus was a God-man, and nowhere does it say in Acts 2.22 Jesus is fully God and fully man.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Catholic school has at least some good side effects doesn't it? 
They were rock-solid on this.
They were rock-solid on this.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
You know, these heresies have all been tried before. Jesus has two natures, God and man, and one body. That is orthodoxy.
Arians, like you, in the 3rd century AD said Jesus was only a man. Docetism in the said Jesus was only God. Gnostics 2nd century AD said Jesus was only a Spirit, and the flesh is evil, and Jesus needed to transcend the flesh.
As I have repeatedly said, Jesus is both God and man. But let's look at what Jesus said to the Pharisees.
"and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." John 8:55-59
First, Jesus claims to have met Abraham. Second, he says something to the Pharisees which enraged them. He calls himself "I am" as I have bolded in the passage.
In Greek, it is not necessary to say the pronoun. So, if someone wants to say "I am," they only need to say "eimi," or "am." Lots of languages do this, Spanish also comes to mind.
But Jesus doesn't say eimi! He says "ego eimi." (ἐγὼ εἰμί.) This comes straight out of Exodus 3: 14:
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” Ex. 3:14
Abraham asks who should he say sent him, God replies YHVH a short form at the end of the verse. In the Septuagint, translated in 300 BC, says "ego eimi." (ἐγὼ εἰμί).
That's right, Jesus said he was the I AM. That is the name of God! If you try to argue this away, then first look at verse 59. What was the response of the Pharisees? Did they call him insane? No, they tried to stone him for blasphemy! The blasphemy of calling himself I AM ἐγὼ εἰμί. And making himself to be God.
The only way to properly do hermeneutics and formulating theology is to know the original languages. Otherwise, you just end up with messed up theology. You end up with Arianism, where Jesus is ONLY a man, and not God. Yet, the Greek clearly has Jesus declaring he is God.
You have twisted verse after verse in trying to degrade and humiliate Jesus by making him a mere man, and not one being with the Father and the Spirit.
I can do this all day. I would ask you read the posts where talked about the Triune God in theological terms. Then, you have a better idea who God is. An some deep explanations of why you cannot be saved unless you believe in the Trinity.
Arians, like you, in the 3rd century AD said Jesus was only a man. Docetism in the said Jesus was only God. Gnostics 2nd century AD said Jesus was only a Spirit, and the flesh is evil, and Jesus needed to transcend the flesh.
As I have repeatedly said, Jesus is both God and man. But let's look at what Jesus said to the Pharisees.
"and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." John 8:55-59
First, Jesus claims to have met Abraham. Second, he says something to the Pharisees which enraged them. He calls himself "I am" as I have bolded in the passage.
In Greek, it is not necessary to say the pronoun. So, if someone wants to say "I am," they only need to say "eimi," or "am." Lots of languages do this, Spanish also comes to mind.
But Jesus doesn't say eimi! He says "ego eimi." (ἐγὼ εἰμί.) This comes straight out of Exodus 3: 14:
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” Ex. 3:14
Abraham asks who should he say sent him, God replies YHVH a short form at the end of the verse. In the Septuagint, translated in 300 BC, says "ego eimi." (ἐγὼ εἰμί).
That's right, Jesus said he was the I AM. That is the name of God! If you try to argue this away, then first look at verse 59. What was the response of the Pharisees? Did they call him insane? No, they tried to stone him for blasphemy! The blasphemy of calling himself I AM ἐγὼ εἰμί. And making himself to be God.
The only way to properly do hermeneutics and formulating theology is to know the original languages. Otherwise, you just end up with messed up theology. You end up with Arianism, where Jesus is ONLY a man, and not God. Yet, the Greek clearly has Jesus declaring he is God.
You have twisted verse after verse in trying to degrade and humiliate Jesus by making him a mere man, and not one being with the Father and the Spirit.
I can do this all day. I would ask you read the posts where talked about the Triune God in theological terms. Then, you have a better idea who God is. An some deep explanations of why you cannot be saved unless you believe in the Trinity.
-
2
-
1
- Show all
There's no such thing as God-man, not in the scriptures. God is God because He is not a man and a man is a man because he is not God, there can not be an in between position.
1. Your confusion between Abraham and Moses (highlighted) is hereby forgiven. Abraham did not ask God and God did not tell Abraham that His name is I AM.
2. The timeline between Abraham and Moses is more than 600 years. Means the title I AM came 600+ after Abraham was born, hence Jesus' claims are based on the timelines and not necessarily about the one who appeared to Moses in a burning bush. Jesus is simply saying He was before Abraham was born - this is a true statement because the sons of God also rejoiced during creation:
Job 38:
4Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5Who fixed its measurements? Surely you know!
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6On what were its foundations set,
or who laid its cornerstone,b
7while the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Q. Apart from Jesus, who are these other sons of God that were before Abraham was born? even before Adam was created?
3. No such thing as God man
2 Pet 1: 4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
If Peter is suggesting that believers are men-God (100% men and 100% God), then i have no problem calling Jesus a God-man.
1. Your confusion between Abraham and Moses (highlighted) is hereby forgiven. Abraham did not ask God and God did not tell Abraham that His name is I AM.
2. The timeline between Abraham and Moses is more than 600 years. Means the title I AM came 600+ after Abraham was born, hence Jesus' claims are based on the timelines and not necessarily about the one who appeared to Moses in a burning bush. Jesus is simply saying He was before Abraham was born - this is a true statement because the sons of God also rejoiced during creation:
Job 38:
4Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5Who fixed its measurements? Surely you know!
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6On what were its foundations set,
or who laid its cornerstone,b
7while the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Q. Apart from Jesus, who are these other sons of God that were before Abraham was born? even before Adam was created?
3. No such thing as God man
2 Pet 1: 4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
If Peter is suggesting that believers are men-God (100% men and 100% God), then i have no problem calling Jesus a God-man.
-
2
- Show all
You not only twist my words, but you also twist God's word!
I am quite aware that it was Moses that spoke to the burning bush! And that Abraham lived 400 years before Moses.
Jesus is the one who went said "before Abraham I AM." And yes, I did confuse the names in the portion you put in red. Probably a function of typing on my phone late at night, and also having a bad stomach flu, which I still have.
It is pretty obvious it was a mistake, by the rest of the passage. And you certainly took it and jumped in it, rather than replying to the content of my post.
1. Jesus says "before Abraham was I AM" or YHVH, (Hebrew) or ego eimi (Greek). Jesus is the one who started with Abraham, then switched to Moses. From an ancient world literary viewpoint, that is perfectly acceptable. Not even the Pharisees were mad about that. They were mad because Jesus said:
A. He lived before Abraham - in other words, he was NOT a created being.
B. Jesus said he was YHVH
The Jews tried to stone him for saying he was YHVH. Now, if Jesus was not saying, "I am God," he could have told the Pharisees they misunderstood, or admitted his mistake. But he did NOT!
He used his power to escape a stoning! He let it stand that he was ego eimi! That he was God. God as the one being, ousia, who was the second person or hypostasis, of the triune God.
So, by focusing on my mistake, you have not dealt with the central issue in my post, which is:
Did Jesus say he was I AM, YHVH, ego eimi, or not??
Jesus made a clear statement that he is the same God as Moses met at the burning bush, and that he was an eternal being, uncreated, by saying he lived before Abraham, who was the Father of the Jews.
So, one more time, "Did Jesus say he was I AM, YHVH, ego eimi, or not??
And since he did say he was God, is it not time to let go of your Unitarian bad theology, and confess Jesus as God and Saviour, so you may be saved?
I am quite aware that it was Moses that spoke to the burning bush! And that Abraham lived 400 years before Moses.
Jesus is the one who went said "before Abraham I AM." And yes, I did confuse the names in the portion you put in red. Probably a function of typing on my phone late at night, and also having a bad stomach flu, which I still have.
It is pretty obvious it was a mistake, by the rest of the passage. And you certainly took it and jumped in it, rather than replying to the content of my post.
1. Jesus says "before Abraham was I AM" or YHVH, (Hebrew) or ego eimi (Greek). Jesus is the one who started with Abraham, then switched to Moses. From an ancient world literary viewpoint, that is perfectly acceptable. Not even the Pharisees were mad about that. They were mad because Jesus said:
A. He lived before Abraham - in other words, he was NOT a created being.
B. Jesus said he was YHVH
The Jews tried to stone him for saying he was YHVH. Now, if Jesus was not saying, "I am God," he could have told the Pharisees they misunderstood, or admitted his mistake. But he did NOT!
He used his power to escape a stoning! He let it stand that he was ego eimi! That he was God. God as the one being, ousia, who was the second person or hypostasis, of the triune God.
So, by focusing on my mistake, you have not dealt with the central issue in my post, which is:
Did Jesus say he was I AM, YHVH, ego eimi, or not??
Jesus made a clear statement that he is the same God as Moses met at the burning bush, and that he was an eternal being, uncreated, by saying he lived before Abraham, who was the Father of the Jews.
So, one more time, "Did Jesus say he was I AM, YHVH, ego eimi, or not??
And since he did say he was God, is it not time to let go of your Unitarian bad theology, and confess Jesus as God and Saviour, so you may be saved?
-
4
- Show all
Jesus as savor is the I am as the Son of God . He according the Hebrews 7 remains our high priest continually without beginning of Spirit life or end of it.
Eternal Spirit is the Father of all spirits As the Son of man he informs us his flesh profits for nothing .Its the unseen, eternal work of the Son of man and the father working together that did profit. We continue to walk by faith all the days of our lives.
God is not a man as us.
His Spirit lives in us just as the Son of man, Jesus .I think you say the. I was .
We are commanded (2 Corinthian 5:16) even though some did we know him that way forever more. The one promised demonstration is over.
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Eternal Spirit is the Father of all spirits As the Son of man he informs us his flesh profits for nothing .Its the unseen, eternal work of the Son of man and the father working together that did profit. We continue to walk by faith all the days of our lives.
God is not a man as us.
His Spirit lives in us just as the Son of man, Jesus .I think you say the. I was .
We are commanded (2 Corinthian 5:16) even though some did we know him that way forever more. The one promised demonstration is over.
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
