Are you a Trinitarian, and if so, can you defend the doctrine?

[Lucy-Pevensie]

You not only twist my words, but you also twist God's word!

I am quite aware that it was Moses that spoke to the burning bush! And that Abraham lived 400 years before Moses.

Jesus is the one who went said "before Abraham I AM." And yes, I did confuse the names in the portion you put in red. Probably a function of typing on my phone late at night, and also having a bad stomach flu, which I still have.

It is pretty obvious it was a mistake, by the rest of the passage. And you certainly took it and jumped in it, rather than replying to the content of my post.

1. Jesus says "before Abraham was I AM" or YHVH, (Hebrew) or ego eimi (Greek). Jesus is the one who started with Abraham, then switched to Moses. From an ancient world literary viewpoint, that is perfectly acceptable. Not even the Pharisees were mad about that. They were mad because Jesus said:
A. He lived before Abraham - in other words, he was NOT a created being.
B. Jesus said he was YHVH

The Jews tried to stone him for saying he was YHVH. Now, if Jesus was not saying, "I am God," he could have told the Pharisees they misunderstood, or admitted his mistake. But he did NOT!

He used his power to escape a stoning! He let it stand that he was ego eimi! That he was God. God as the one being, ousia, who was the second person or hypostasis, of the triune God.

So, by focusing on my mistake, you have not dealt with the central issue in my post, which is:

Did Jesus say he was I AM, YHVH, ego eimi, or not??

Jesus made a clear statement that he is the same God as Moses met at the burning bush, and that he was an eternal being, uncreated, by saying he lived before Abraham, who was the Father of the Jews.

So, one more time, "Did Jesus say he was I AM, YHVH, ego eimi, or not??

And since he did say he was God, is it not time to let go of your Unitarian bad theology, and confess Jesus as God and Saviour, so you may be saved?

Angela, here's a good verse we all know which really backs up the point you are making.

Isaiah 9: 6-7 (ESV)

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

 

[garee]

That's the problem; you think you're being clear, but you're not, and I'm not the only person who tells you so. This is not about one particular post of yours; your writing is consistently unclear.

My understanding is clear. Did you have a question? My ability suffers.

 

[garee]

1. Jesus says "before Abraham was I AM" or YHVH, (Hebrew) or ego eimi (Greek). Jesus is the one who started with Abraham, then switched to Moses. From an ancient world literary viewpoint, that is perfectly acceptable. Not even the Pharisees were mad about that. They were mad because Jesus said:
A. He lived before Abraham - in other words, he was NOT a created being.
B. Jesus said he was YHVH

I Am is eternal God and is not a man as us. He has no beginning of days or end of Spirit life.

The faithless Jews developed what they called faith after the name Abraham . A name that God not seen used to show He is the Holy Father of all nations. Not the earthly Abraham (walking by sight.)

The Jews that sought after the tradition of men that came from their own mouths (Jerimiah 44) had the exclusive faith of Christ after the flesh of Abraham. Therefore usurping the authority of the unseen Father in heaven.

The Catholics copied that structure replacing the word Abraham with Peter. Making Peter the Holy Father. Both the Jewish fathers and the Catholic fathers refused to obey the commandment to call no man on earth father. By there oral tradition they made as it is written without effect. Drawing a source of faith from the things seen rather than the unseen eternal (No faith at all) The froward unsaved generation or called the evil generation that seeks after a signs and wonders false gospel

One of the think not doctrines.

Matthew 3:8-10 King James Version (KJV) Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Thoses stones are the lively stones that make up the spiritual house of God not seen. the church

Fleshly Abraham in the place of our unseen Holy Father in heaven . The abomination of desolation

 

[keithr]

1. Jesus says "before Abraham was I AM" or YHVH, (Hebrew) or ego eimi (Greek). Jesus is the one who started with Abraham, then switched to Moses. From an ancient world literary viewpoint, that is perfectly acceptable. Not even the Pharisees were mad about that. They were mad because Jesus said:
A. He lived before Abraham - in other words, he was NOT a created being.

That's illogical. Adam lived before Abraham, and he was a created being!

B. Jesus said he was YHVH

The Jews tried to stone him for saying he was YHVH. Now, if Jesus was not saying, "I am God," he could have told the Pharisees they misunderstood, or admitted his mistake. But he did NOT!

Did Jesus say he was I AM, YHVH, ego eimi, or not??

No, Jesus did not say that he was Yahweh. He was speaking Aramaic, not Hebrew, and this passage is written in Greek, not Hebrew. The Greek translated to English effectively says, "I existed before Abraham came into existence". Look at the context:

John 8:
31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Note that Jesus is speaking with Jews that believed him, not to the Pharisees as you claimed above.

25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

They are asking who Jesus is, and clearly Jesus is not saying that he is the Father.

48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

Here he is saying that he honours his father (Yahweh), that he does not seek his own glory, but that there is someone else that does seek and judges (Yahweh). He is not saying that he is that God.

51 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

So it is the believing Jews who brought up the subject of Abraham, because Abraham and all the prophets were dead, thereby implying that they had not abided by what Jesus taught. Hence they asked,

53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
or
54 (MKJV) Jesus answered, If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say that He is your God.

So Jesus is saying that it is his father (Yahweh) that glorifies Jesus, and that the Jews claim that Jesus' father is God (Yahweh). Again, clearly Jesus is not claiming to be Yahweh, whom the Jews say is their God.

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Again Jesus says that he knows Yahweh, not that he is Yahweh.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus states that Abraham rejoiced to learn of the coming messiah, and the Jews reacted as if Jesus was claiming to have spoken with Abraham, and sarcasticly said that he was less than 50 years old so that he could not have seen Abraham. Jesus, like our Father Yahweh, does not lie, so he stated that he had been alive from before Abraham's birth.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

It does not say why they then wanted to stone him. They probably did not full understand what he was saying, and they probably did not believe Jesus' claim to have been alive since before Abraham, and so turned against hime because they thought he had been lying to them. We know better.

 

[Dino246]

Did you have a question?

No.

My ability suffers.

Which is why I recommend that you take a class. There's no shame in seeking knowledge and understanding.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

That's illogical. Adam lived before Abraham, and he was a created being!

No, Jesus did not say that he was Yahweh. He was speaking Aramaic, not Hebrew, and this passage is written in Greek, not Hebrew. The Greek translated to English effectively says, "I existed before Abraham came into existence". Look at the context:

John 8:
31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Note that Jesus is speaking with Jews that believed him, not to the Pharisees as you claimed above.

25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

They are asking who Jesus is, and clearly Jesus is not saying that he is the Father.

48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

Here he is saying that he honours his father (Yahweh), that he does not seek his own glory, but that there is someone else that does seek and judges (Yahweh). He is not saying that he is that God.

51 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

So it is the believing Jews who brought up the subject of Abraham, because Abraham and all the prophets were dead, thereby implying that they had not abided by what Jesus taught. Hence they asked,

53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
or
54 (MKJV) Jesus answered, If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say that He is your God.

So Jesus is saying that it is his father (Yahweh) that glorifies Jesus, and that the Jews claim that Jesus' father is God (Yahweh). Again, clearly Jesus is not claiming to be Yahweh, whom the Jews say is their God.

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Again Jesus says that he knows Yahweh, not that he is Yahweh.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus states that Abraham rejoiced to learn of the coming messiah, and the Jews reacted as if Jesus was claiming to have spoken with Abraham, and sarcasticly said that he was less than 50 years old so that he could not have seen Abraham. Jesus, like our Father Yahweh, does not lie, so he stated that he had been alive from before Abraham's birth.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

It does not say why they then wanted to stone him. They probably did not full understand what he was saying, and they probably did not believe Jesus' claim to have been alive since before Abraham, and so turned against hime because they thought he had been lying to them. We know better.

There is no such thing as a religious Jew who doesn't understand the meaning of Exodus 3:14.
The Lord's allusion to it is obvious and that is why they wanted to stone him.
It's clear from scripture who The Messiah is. And that Jesus was killed because he claimed to be God.

I refer you to my post above. A clear Messianic prophecy.

Isaiah 9: 6-7 (ESV)

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.

 

[Carefultolisten]

Here are five points that define the Trinity. Can you list Scriptures which prove each point?

1. There is one God, and his name is YHVH.
2. This one God reveals Himself in Three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
3. The Father is God.
4. The Son is God.
5. The Holy Spirit is God.
6. These three Persons are co-eternal and co-essential, meaning that each Person has always existed, and they all share the same
essence.

Although I don’t disagree with those six points It’s is worth noting that words like Co eternal and essence depend more on church councils than scripture.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Although I don’t disagree with those six points It’s is worth noting that words like Co eternal and essence depend more on church councils than scripture.

Incorrect. The councils only clarified what Scripture says.

For example, Jesus said, "I and my Father are one". This indicates co-essentiality. They share the same essence.

Additionally, Jesus is Yahweh, and thus has eternally existed. And, the Father is Yahweh..yet there is only one Yahweh according to many verses in Isaiah 40-55.

The Trinity doctrine is forced upon a man who has studied Scripture in this regard, and submits himself to its teachings.

Turning this into an arbitrary decision of the church councils is not at all accurate. They supported their position with solid Scriptural teachings.

 

[keithr]

There is no such thing as a religious Jew who doesn't understand the meaning of Exodus 3:14.
The Lord's allusion to it is obvious and that is why they wanted to stone him.

It's not obvious. The translators translated it as "Before Abraham was, I am" because they were believers of the trinity, so they used poor English ("I am" instead of "I have been", or "I have existed") to make readers think that the Greek text was the same as the Hebrew YHVH, which has been translated as "the existing One", or "I am that I am" or "I will be what I will be". Jesus never claimed to be Yahweh, or his/the Father.

Consider John 10:
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Mt 27:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
Mt 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

John the baptist said:
Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

It's clear from scripture who The Messiah is. And that Jesus was killed because he claimed to be God.

No, it's clear from the scriptures I quoted above that Jesus claimed to be the son of God, not God. That's what the chief priests, scribes and elders believed.

On the cross Jesus cried, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" If he was God, why was he calling out to God?!

I refer you to my post above. A clear Messianic prophecy.

Isaiah 9: 6-7 (ESV)

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;

Yes, God gave His only begotten son. The scriptures are quite clear about that. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Note that it says he will be called The (or "a") Mighty God, not Almighty God, and not Yahweh.
A father is a life-giver. Jesus is the one through whom we have everlasting life, so he will be called the everlasting father. Abraham and Adam are referred to as father by their descendants, likewise Jesus will be referred to as father because he gives us eternal life:

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening [life giving] spirit.

The Messiah is not God. We are to become members of the body of Christ, that is, members of the body of Messiah (Christ is a translation of Messiah, or rather a transliteration of the Greek translation of the Hebrew word for Messiah). Do you believe that we are part of God too? If you do than you can't believe that God is a Trinity. If you don't then you can't believe in the Trinity either!

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

It's not obvious. The translators translated it as "Before Abraham was, I am" because they were believers of the trinity, so they used poor English ("I am" instead of "I have been", or "I have existed") to make readers think that the Greek text was the same as the Hebrew YHVH, which has been translated as "the existing One", or "I am that I am" or "I will be what I will be". Jesus never claimed to be Yahweh, or his/the Father.

Consider John 10:
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Mt 27:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
Mt 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

John the baptist said:
Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.



No, it's clear from the scriptures I quoted above that Jesus claimed to be the son of God, not God. That's what the chief priests, scribes and elders believed.

On the cross Jesus cried, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" If he was God, why was he calling out to God?!


Yes, God gave His only begotten son. The scriptures are quite clear about that. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

Note that it says he will be called The (or "a") Mighty God, not Almighty God, and not Yahweh.
A father is a life-giver. Jesus is the one through whom we have everlasting life, so he will be called the everlasting father. Abraham and Adam are referred to as father by their descendants, likewise Jesus will be referred to as father because he gives us eternal life:

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening [life giving] spirit.

The Messiah is not God. We are to become members of the body of Christ, that is, members of the body of Messiah (Christ is a translation of Messiah, or rather a transliteration of the Greek translation of the Hebrew word for Messiah). Do you believe that we are part of God too? If you do than you can't believe that God is a Trinity. If you don't then you can't believe in the Trinity either!

Jesus is, in fact, Yahweh. He is God. He is not the Father, but he is one of the persons of the triune God.

For those who want to prove this to themselves, look at quotes from the OT that refer to Jesus. If you look at them, you will find often that they are referring to Yahweh in the original context of the quote.

This is in addition to other Scriptures that plainly teach Jesus is God.

Here's one example:

Romans 10:9-13 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Where does this verse come from, and who does it apply to in context?

Joel 2:28-32 8 “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. 29 Even on the male and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit. 30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. (ESV)

LORD indicates that the quoted OT Scripture is referring to Yahweh, who is the one true God (Deut 6:4).

And, there are MANY such references in regards to Christ. If you carefully trace them back, it is apparent that Jesus was "God with Us".

In fact, the language of John 1 indicates that Jesus was the "glory" that inhabited the Temple...and that he tabernacled with mankind in Jesus. Jesus called his body the Temple in John 2.

Actually, though, I recommend that folks simply do your research, follow up on OT references and explicit remarks in Scripture, understand the Granville Sharp rule and how that affects the understanding of the deity of Christ..

Those who deny Jesus' deity have not done their homework. In fact, I don't believe they are saved yet. They need to fall on their knees, repent, and accept Jesus, God in the flesh, as Savior and Lord.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You may also want this book:

Putting Jesus in His Place: The Case for the Deity of Christ, Rob Bowman

https://smile.amazon.com/Putting-Je...+bowman+deity+of+christ&qid=1582900491&sr=8-1

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

There are so many lines of reasoning that can be used to prove Jesus is God.

For example, the believer is united with Christ through the mediation of the Holy Spirit.

How does Jesus dwell with the believer through the mediation of the Holy Spirit if the Trinity doctrine is not true?

There are so many things that those who deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ CANNOT understand because they have bought into the lies of Arians and Unitarians and every other form of heretic that denies the Trinity.

 

[Angela53510]

It's not obvious. The translators translated it as "Before Abraham was, I am" because they were believers of the trinity, so they used poor English ("I am" instead of "I have been", or "I have existed") to make readers think that the Greek text was the same as the Hebrew YHVH, which has been translated as "the existing One", or "I am that I am" or "I will be what I will be". Jesus never claimed to be Yahweh, or his/the Father.

Consider John 10:
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Mt 27:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
Mt 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

John the baptist said:
Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.



No, it's clear from the scriptures I quoted above that Jesus claimed to be the son of God, not God. That's what the chief priests, scribes and elders believed.

On the cross Jesus cried, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" If he was God, why was he calling out to God?!


Yes, God gave His only begotten son. The scriptures are quite clear about that. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

Note that it says he will be called The (or "a") Mighty God, not Almighty God, and not Yahweh.
A father is a life-giver. Jesus is the one through whom we have everlasting life, so he will be called the everlasting father. Abraham and Adam are referred to as father by their descendants, likewise Jesus will be referred to as father because he gives us eternal life:

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening [life giving] spirit.

The Messiah is not God. We are to become members of the body of Christ, that is, members of the body of Messiah (Christ is a translation of Messiah, or rather a transliteration of the Greek translation of the Hebrew word for Messiah). Do you believe that we are part of God too? If you do than you can't believe that God is a Trinity. If you don't then you can't believe in the Trinity either!

Nothing worse than someone who doesn't know a thing about languages, Greek or translations making a broad and definitive statement about the translators being wrong!

You do know the a Bible was translated into other languages, besides Greek, long before church counsels defined clearly the meaning and truth if the Trinity?

Sorry, with utterly no qualifications, and holding a heretical viewpoint, you have no right to be putting down translators and saying the meaning isn't right.

Just appalling ignorance in the part of
Non-Christians, who then go on to prove their point by using a translation of the Bible. Inconsistent much?

 

[bojack]

Jesus Yeshua God

 

[just_truth]

As I have repeatedly said, Jesus is both God and man. But let's look at what Jesus said to the Pharisees.

"and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." John 8:55-59
.

When Jesus said I AM, he is really saying that He is Jahweh God the Father. That's why the Jews got angry.
It's like today when someone teaches that Jesus is really the true God that manifests in the flesh they got anger like the Jews.

 

[Deuteronomy]

When Jesus said I AM, he is really saying that He is Jahweh God the Father. That's why the Jews got angry.

Hello just_truth, Jesus never claimed to be His Father, but you are correct in saying that He did claim to be YHWH (which is the personal name of God) when He told the Jews, "I am". God the Father is YHWH, God the Son is also YHWH, as is God the Holy Spirit, but the Son is not the Father, neither is the Father the Son, etc.

​

~Deut

 

[Deuteronomy]

Surely this has already been posted somewhere in this long thread, but I will post it again here for the sake of reference (with a special emphasis on paragraphs two and three below in regard to this discussion). Also, please note that the word "catholic" refers to the universal church, NOT the Roman Catholic church!

The Athanasian Creed
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty; From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; and shall give account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.​

~Deut

 

[just_truth]

Hello just_truth, Jesus never claimed to be His Father, but you are correct in saying that He did claim to be YHWH (which is the personal name of God) when He told the Jews, "I am". God the Father is YHWH, God the Son is also YHWH, as is God the Holy Spirit, but the Son is not the Father, neither is the Father the Son, etc.

​

~Deut

Deuteronomy the Trinitarians illustrate the triune god in which the center something an unknown god or unidentified god in the center in which the three persons got their Divinity, the said illustration cannot coincide in the Scriptures. While this is the way the NT illustrates God, the Father is basically pointed as the only true God and even Jesus recognizes that many times. So the right illustration of God must be like this, at the top is the identified God who is the Father where the Son and Holy Spirit got their divinity.

 

[just_truth]

Surely this has already been posted somewhere in this long thread, but I will post it again here for the sake of reference (with a special emphasis on paragraphs two and three below in regard to this discussion). Also, please note that the word "catholic" refers to the universal church, NOT the Roman Catholic church!

The Athanasian Creed​

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.​

​

And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.​

​

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.​

​

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty; From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; and shall give account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.​

​

This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.​

~Deut

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hello again @just_truth, if the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit "got their Divinity" from God the Father, then they could not also be God from everlasting, which means that they could not be God (as there is but One). As God tells us in the Bible, no God was formed either before or after YHWH was .. e.g. Isaiah 43:10; , the God whose ~singular~ Name is also, "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit", the Name of God we use during baptism .. Matthew 28:19.

As for who "the Trinitarians" you mentioned above are, that would be ALL of us, as the entirety of the historic Christian Church (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican, etc.) has both believed and taught the Trinity since the First Century, for the simple reason that the doctrine of the Trinity is a summation of what the Bible teaches us about God.

As He told us in the beginning, we were created in His image.

Genesis 1​

“Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..."​

The truth is, we constantly bicker and fight over MANY, MANY points of theology (the various churches and denominations that make up the whole of the church, that is), but as far as our Triune God is concerned, there is no debate, because we have all held (and continue to hold) to the exact same beliefs concerning the Godhead, and that, again, for millennia now. So, while you are certainly free to believe whatever you'd like to believe about God personally, the fact that you stand in opposition to every church body within the pale of Christian orthodoxy when you do would, at least, give me pause if I was you, and, no doubt further, give me a reason to take a much deeper look into "why" the church has held/continues to hold to this particular doctrine in such absolute unity with one another.

~Deut

Isaiah 43​

10 “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,​

“And My servant whom I have chosen,​

So that you may know and believe Me​

And understand that I am He.​

Before Me there was no God formed,​

And there will be none after Me.”​

​