The way of our Lord Jesus Christ

Dave-L · Mar 15, 2020

You're in Finland. Did you mean to put this anti firearms bunk on a Finish site to chastise the 1.5 million Finish gun owners in your back yard?

That's one of the issues I had and still have with some things in the bible. I'm suppose to love my enemy. If they were lovable they wouldn't be my enemy. When they're my enemy they don't love me. I'm suppose to forgive them no matter what they do as my enemy. Seventy times seven, as I recall.
No matter what they do. They rob me, kill my kids, rape and hang my wife, gut my dog and lay her on the hood of my car for me to find first. And then the rest of my family.
But I am to love them and forgive them. That means I don't call the cops. I don't follow the case to insure the murderer is made to answer to man's laws for his crimes. I'm suppose to love him and forgive him.
That's a lot of talk until something horrible happens like that to someone who claims they're suppose to love their enemy. And look weak and worthy of anything that enemy has in store. Because that enemy knows the sap they want to hurt loves to follow some rule about enemy love more than his family.

Now let me get to that other part. Ask yourself what did God do to his enemies? Give them a big hug, all the blessings they could carry, and eternal life with him?
God made Hell for sinners. Those are enemies of his righteousness, yes? If I'm suppose to love my enemy no matter what why did God that made that rule make Hell for his?

No guns! You're entitled to make that choice. In Finland! If you want to not be a brazen hypocrite when you are against guns and advocate love for your enemy, you won't call the police if someone breaks into your house and kills your family. You'll love that murderer and forgive them. No matter what. Seventy times seven times.
If you can do that you didn't love your family. But you did show a lot more restraint than the God that made you believe that rule you're suppose to follow . All found in the same bible where he accounts his mass murders of his enemies, while in the back of the bible tells you to love yours and forgive them no matter what. Why didn't God make that rule after he set its example first?

Anti gun people make me sick. If they were true to their weak advocacy they'd never call people who have guns to save them from those who have guns and want to hurt the unarmed. And they sure as hell have no right to talk to American's about our gun rights when they live in Finland.
Ever think that God inspired the creation of weapons? No, of course not.

If you cannot prove Jesus advocated violence under any circumstances, how do you follow him having a violent temperament?

oldethennew · Mar 15, 2020

Dave-L said:

==============================================================
ACTS 24:14.
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers,
believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
28:23.
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging;
to whom he expounded and testified The Kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus,
both out of the Law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Sipsey · Mar 15, 2020

Dave-L said:

Dave, you seem like an intelligent fellow, but you err on this subject. Would you call the police to report that an intruder just broke in and was killing your wife and daughter, or just “turn your other, out of context, cheek? Why even call the police or have jails?

No one is insinuating its fine to kill for any offense, but a man that does not care for his family is not looked upon favorably in Scripture. Many get your attitude from an improper exegesis of “thou shalt not kill” which Jesus corrected the translation in Matthew when He substituted the correct word, Murder. It goes to ones motives.

Dave-L · Mar 15, 2020

Sipsey said:

You are painting a straw-man situation and pinning it on me. Here's what you need to do. Prove violent self-defense does not contradict the Sermon on the Mount. Or produce 1 example from the NT where it is permissible.

oldethennew · Mar 15, 2020

well said Sipsey...

the common denominator is, obeying-following, The Holy Spirit's guidance/obedience,
in each and every situation, whether in comfort zone or out...

as for hub and myself, we believe EVERY WORD of GOD in the whole BIBLE, -
as it is written:
Man shall not live by bread along, but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God'...
and it is written again:
'Think not that I am come to destroy the Law and the Prophets, I am not come to destroy,
but to fulfill'...

Sipsey · Mar 15, 2020

Dave-L said:

Just answer my assertion. You would calmly try and convert you families murderers? I also assume you would not serve in the military?

Dave-L · Mar 15, 2020

oldethennew said:

Can you prove from scripture violent self-defense does not contradict the Sermon on the Mount? Or produce 1 example from the NT where any practiced it? Nobody else can.

Dave-L · Mar 15, 2020

Sipsey said:

Do you believe not one sparrow falls to the ground without the Father? Where is your faith? And what if you all die? Would you kill to stay in this wicked world? And forfeit the martyr's crown to grow old and rot away having denied Christ?

Sipsey · Mar 15, 2020

Dave-L said:

I would never “Murder” but indeed if the situation warranted it, I would kill. God loves but killed thousands, are you insinuating His actions were in err?

Brandnewday · Mar 15, 2020

Dave-L said:

You're quick to judge there aren't you buddy? Violent temperament?

The first part doesn't make a lot of sense but I'll try to figure it out and give you this answer. Jesus and God are the same person. When the people in his day saw him they saw his father. That's what he told them. Oh, and Jesus does not change. Go from there. Jesus made a whip himself and then went thrashing after the Jews that were sitting at tables in front of the Synagogue because they were changing money. That money used to buy animals to be killed and offered to God to cover their sins.
Jesus was ticked off! It took time to make that whip and he took the time. Then he turned over those tables and had at it. He beat money changers for betraying the faith before his father's house. And don't think Jesus didn't make contact with that whip. It doesn't need to be verbatim in scripture to figure it out. He did. He knew his power, he could have knocked those tables and men over by calling the winds to do that but he didn't. He made a whip with his own hands and best believe he used it.

That is Jesus who does not change from who he was in the old testament when he slaughtered men, women, children, the newborn, the firstborn, and the unborn.

Now, to answer your first question. if I'm were of a violent temperament, then I'd be the right follower for that God.

oldethennew · Mar 15, 2020

dear Dave,
obviously there is a missing 'link' here in understanding of scriptures, both OT and NT, which are
one and the same -
again,
Jesus said:
'Don't think that I have come to destroy the Law and the Prophets' -
this ONE STATEMENT clarifies the OT validity, -
'For out of Zion' the Torah shall proceed'. -
it 'clearly states in the Torah' that defending your 'loved-ones' without 'un-necessary-force' is TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE'...

hub and I are through ministering in this thread, we appreciate all views and knowledge learned thus far...

Brandnewday · Mar 15, 2020

Sipsey said:

The command of God was, thou shalt not murder. Not, kill. If the ancient tribes of God were forbidden to kill they'd have been vegans . And they couldn't have followed the sacrificial law for their sins because if forbidden to kill that would mean they couldn't kill sacrificial animals either.

I've to run errands now. I'll be back. I didn't want you to think I would be avoiding your answer if I didn't reply right away.
Till then.

Dave-L · Mar 15, 2020

Brandnewday said:

You're quick to judge there aren't you buddy? Violent temperament?

The first part doesn't make a lot of sense but I'll try to figure it out and give you this answer. Jesus and God are the same person. When the people in his day saw him they saw his father. That's what he told them. Oh, and Jesus does not change. Go from there. Jesus made a whip himself and then went thrashing after the Jews that were sitting at tables in front of the Synagogue because they were changing money. That money used to buy animals to be killed and offered to God to cover their sins.
Jesus was ticked off! It took time to make that whip and he took the time. Then he turned over those tables and had at it. He beat money changers for betraying the faith before his father's house. And don't think Jesus didn't make contact with that whip. It doesn't need to be verbatim in scripture to figure it out. He did. He knew his power, he could have knocked those tables and men over by calling the winds to do that but he didn't. He made a whip with his own hands and best believe he used it.

That is Jesus who does not change from who he was in the old testament when he slaughtered men, women, children, the newborn, the firstborn, and the unborn.

Now, to answer your first question. if I'm were of a violent temperament, then I'd be the right follower for that God.

You need to prove Jesus or any of his followers practiced violence for any reason. You cannot do this or you would have by now.

Dave-L · Mar 15, 2020

Sipsey said:

God is the same in both testaments. But his plan for believers is one of unconditional love for all including enemies. You must love enemies unconditionally before your love has any value. Loving those who love you is not biblical love.

Dave-L · Mar 15, 2020

oldethennew said:

==============================================================
ACTS 24:14.
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers,
believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
28:23.
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging;
to whom he expounded and testified The Kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus,
both out of the Law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Where's the permission for violence in the NT?

Dave-L · Mar 15, 2020

Brandnewday said:

You're quick to judge there aren't you buddy? Violent temperament?

The first part doesn't make a lot of sense but I'll try to figure it out and give you this answer. Jesus and God are the same person. When the people in his day saw him they saw his father. That's what he told them. Oh, and Jesus does not change. Go from there. Jesus made a whip himself and then went thrashing after the Jews that were sitting at tables in front of the Synagogue because they were changing money. That money used to buy animals to be killed and offered to God to cover their sins.
Jesus was ticked off! It took time to make that whip and he took the time. Then he turned over those tables and had at it. He beat money changers for betraying the faith before his father's house. And don't think Jesus didn't make contact with that whip. It doesn't need to be verbatim in scripture to figure it out. He did. He knew his power, he could have knocked those tables and men over by calling the winds to do that but he didn't. He made a whip with his own hands and best believe he used it.

That is Jesus who does not change from who he was in the old testament when he slaughtered men, women, children, the newborn, the firstborn, and the unborn.

Now, to answer your first question. if I'm were of a violent temperament, then I'd be the right follower for that God.

Scripture is not a Roarasach test where you can see what you want and ignore the rest. Prove Jesus and his followers advocated violence. Give only one example and I'll show how it reflects your own heart.

Brandnewday · Mar 15, 2020

Dave-L said:

You accuse me and then think you can read my mind. That's damn entertaining.
I don't think you have to practice violence. You're either good at it or you suck and get your brakes beat off you and find that out the painful way.

I figured you knew your scriptures if you're in this discussion. I'll tell you two such cases. Peter was carrying a sword when Jesus was arrested. Pacifists don't arm themselves. They also don't slash the ear off people. Not everyone has a teacher that can stick that thing back on.
Then there is Jesus himself. Already went through this. Fashioned a whip and punished the money changers. Jesus and God are the same person. If you look for evidence of violence in that case it's all over the old testament. The greatest act was told us by Noah. And don't forget about the first born children during the Hebrews captivity in Egypt. The death angel visited every house and killed every first child. Except for the children of those with lambs blood wiped on the door of their hut.

Its been years since bible study so bear with me. Jesus' apostles wanted to burn people in a town that refused the teaching of Jesus. It didn't happen as I recall. They all just left and went on their way. The point is those apostles thought of that punishment for people who didn't receive their teaching.

There I provided some things. You can't accuse me of not now.

Dave-L · Mar 15, 2020

Brandnewday said:

You accuse me and then think you can read my mind. That's damn entertaining.
I don't think you have to practice violence. You're either good at it or you suck and get your brakes beat off you and find that out the painful way.

I figured you knew your scriptures if you're in this discussion. I'll tell you two such cases. Peter was carrying a sword when Jesus was arrested. Pacifists don't arm themselves. They also don't slash the ear off people. Not everyone has a teacher that can stick that thing back on.
Then there is Jesus himself. Already went through this. Fashioned a whip and punished the money changers. Jesus and God are the same person. If you look for evidence of violence in that case it's all over the old testament. The greatest act was told us by Noah. And don't forget about the first born children during the Hebrews captivity in Egypt. The death angel visited every house and killed every first child. Except for the children of those with lambs blood wiped on the door of their hut.

Its been years since bible study so bear with me. Jesus' apostles wanted to burn people in a town that refused the teaching of Jesus. It didn't happen as I recall. They all just left and went on their way. The point is those apostles thought of that punishment for people who didn't receive their teaching.

There I provided some things. You can't accuse me of not now.

Violent people see scripture thataway.

Sipsey · Mar 15, 2020

Dave-L said:

I think your definition of God’s love is quite lacking. His love includes suffering and physical death.

posthuman · Mar 15, 2020

MikkoAinasoja said:

hey!

reminds me of a song:

Krig -- Throw Your Pistol Away

They have learned your every gun's size
Life is no more important to you
They have stolen your innocence
Your doctrine now is to kill

In the name of war you say God bless us
But you never felt a shot passing through your heart
Then closing your eyes never to say hello again
Because you were a new life in the tomb

Throw your pistol away
Set people free from world hunger

Why do you need to kill these lives behind the wall?
Should you take a coffee break in their houses?
Please, give this war money for their lunch
Set people free from world hunger

The way of our Lord Jesus Christ

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